Conference thebay::joyoflex

	what's the class?

    
    The class is "Business Writing and Reports, Intensive". That in itself
    is probably not much help, huh?  Here is some more info that I supplied
    in another notes conference:
    
    I guess what might help was the opening lecture.  He was explaining how
    in 1066, the Battle of Hastings took place.  To sum it up, the French 
    beat the English.  Because of this, a lot of English words got their
    spelling/meaning from the French as opposed to a German influence (how
    that fits in I'm not sure....my guess is that if the French didn't beat
    the English, the Germans would have?)  Anyway, words like "beef" and
    "veal". Those are French derivitives. The German version of those words
    is "cow" and "calfs flesh"; not as appealing or attractive as the
    French versions.
    
    Also, he talked about how some things said or done in the U.S. are
    insulting in other countries.  His example was that in Nigeria, waving
    at someone with an open hand, like we might do to get someone's
    attention or to say hi from a distance, is an insult. 
    
    I don't think any of that fits into Zazpiak Bat!.  Maybe some
    background on the teacher would help.  His name is Dan Golden.  He
    lives in Cambridge. He works at Wheaton College. He's been in the
    English teaching profession for the past 20 years. His wife (Arlene) 
    is also in the business.....she teaches seminars on business related 
    practices. 
    
    Hope this helps!
    patty
    

    	Can we rely on the transcription?  The letters would appear to rule
    out many oriental languages, and I think the "Z" rules out the Cyrilic
    alphabet as well. As a European language I could believe Hungarian or
    Basque, but not much else. I have "Winnie the Pooh" translated into
    Hungarian, and the mix of letters looks reasonable. If he had given you
    a decent length passage you could have identified the language from the
    letter frequency tables used by cryptographers.

    Re .3: Dave, Cyrillic alphabet is not ruled out. There's a Z in it.
    It's the letter that looks like an inverted 3, I think (but would not
    swear it, although I'm positive the Z exists in Cyrillic).
    	Also, I wouldn't bet on Basque, it doesn't sound like it, and
    Basque is an agglutinative language, which usually means much longer
    words.
    		Denis.

    Can we be sure that this is a real language?  Or could it be, for
    example, that your teacher is a Trekkie and the phrase is Klingon?  In
    other words, are there any clues in the 'entertainment' interests of
    your teacher?
    
    I just looked in a dictionary and spotted a word that started 'za' with
    a Russian origin -- 'za' meaning beyond. 

    	Curious word association there. At one time there was a theory that
    the Daleks from "Dr. Who" came from the Russian word "DALEKO", but the
    author claims that at the time he wrote it he was facing an
    encyclopedia which had a volume labelled DA to LEK ;-)
    
    	Teachers as a class tend to be keen on Esperanto, but it doesn't
    look like that.

    
    to answer your questions......
    
    It's not Cyrillic. (I asked the teacher)
    It's not Russian.  (I showed it to someone who speaks Russian)
    It's not Klingon. (Someone in the STAR_TREK file looked it up for me.)
    
    The teacher assured us that it was a real language, and that its not a
    computer language. Someone in another file said it might be Mongolian.
    I'll try to check that language out today.
    
    thanks for any and all ideas!! 
    
    patty
     
    

    
    patty,
    
    Did the teacher write the phrase or say it? 
    
    The vowel sounds may be longer or shorter than we are reading and
    it may help to 'hear' the actual phrase. 
    
    Thanks,
    jc
    

I was in Luxembourg many years ago and remember seeing a monument
inscribed in Luxembourgish ... It looked sort of Germanic, but with
many z's in it ...  Definitely a little unusual.  In Luxembourg, the
major language seemed to be Belgian French, but also a lot of German.

Stuart

    Are they words or acronyms?  Especially in medeival Europe, there seems
    to have been a tendency toward acronym creation.  Things that pop in to
    one's mind are (for instance):
    
    "hep" - the chant of the progroms, signifying (Hieroselyma est perdita
    - Jerusalem is lost).
    
    the medeival Jewish habit of rendering great rabbis' names a acronyms -
    Reb Moshe ben Maimon also known by his Greek name of Maimonides becomes
    RamBam.
    
    the acronymic rendering of the 10 plagues of Exodus in the Passover
    Haggadah.
    
    Just a thought.
    
    \dave

    Could it be Hebrew? The term BAT MITZVAH is used for the ceremony when
    a Jewish girl assumes her Jewish duties and responsibilities.
    BAR MITZVAH is the term used for the ceremony that boys go through.
    BAT could mean GIRL?
    
    Just a hunch.
    
    Steve
    

    .11 is imho unlikely -- "Bat" in Hebrew means, if memory serves,
    "daughter of" and as such is unlikely (given Hebrew word order) to be
    at the end of a separable phrase...
    
    ... and the search continues...
    

    Ok,Ok so I missed on that attempt. Could this be from a language that
    doesn't use the same letters that English uses? Like Laotion,or
    Vietnamese? Or even one of those (if there is more than one) African
    languages that uses "clicks". Know what I mean? Maybe those Z's are
    "clicks" . No I doubt it.
    
    
    Steve
    

    
    Hi!  I'll try to answer all your questions:
    
       <Did the teacher write the phrase or say it?
    
    The teacher wrote the phrase on the board like so, ZAZPIAK BAT!, and
    has spoken it several times.  I'm probably going to massacre this, but
    here goes:  pronounce all the A's long.....not like Jazz, like Jarz;
    make sense? More like BART than (baseball) BAT.
    
    ZARZ PEEARK BART!  The teacher doesn't have a Boston accent, either!
    
    Maybe even better would be "H's"......ZAHZ PEE AHK BAHT! Hope that
    helps! 
    
    Luxembourg.....The language is not German; I already checked.  I should
    put a list of the languages I have eliminated.  Belgian French is a
    possibility, I guess. 
    
    The teacher said they are words, not acronyms. I did find that acronym
    message very interesting, though.  Thanks!
    
    I checked Hebrew.  The guy who speaks it was totally baffled by this
    word!
    
    I'm not sure that I can explain this point right, but the words are
    written in the English language, not Cyrillic, or any other language.
    To answer the questions about African languages and clicks, I just
    don't know.  The teacher didn't allude to that, but I can certainly ask
    him this evening.
    
    patty
    
    
    
    

>    Luxembourg.....The language is not German; I already checked.  I should
>    put a list of the languages I have eliminated.  Belgian French is a
>    possibility, I guess. 

Not quite what I meant ... While the two major languages of Luxembourg
are German and Belgian French, there is the orignal language of Luxembourg
known in English as Luxembourgish (what they call it themselves I don't
know!) which, is sort of Germanic, but lots of Z's in it.

It certainly doesn't look German, nor French (or Belgian French!) ...
But it has this ring of Luxembourgish to it.

Stuart

    
    re: .16
    
    Stuart, thanks for the clarification!  I'll see what I can find out
    about Luxembourgish.
    
    

Patty, I would suggest you contact some local colleges/universities.
I had to sing a German song in German one year, and didn't know the proper
accent, so I contacted the head of the language dept at a local university.
He was pleased as punch to help me out and was delighted anyone would
go to so much trouble.  I can imagine they would be just as pleased to
help you!

      Carol

ZAZPIAK BAT!  Languages it does not match:
    (If anyone can correct anything on this list, please do so.  thanks,
    patty)
    
    
Arabic
Basque 
French   
Gaelic Scottish   
German 
Gothic
Greek
Hebrew
Hindi
Hittite
Hungarian 
Indonesian
Irish
Italian
Japanese
Klingon
Korean            
Latin
Malaysian
Old Norse
Persian/Farsi   
Polish
Portuguese  
Romanian
Russian         
Sanskrit
Scandinavian      
Spanish
Swedish
Swiss German
Tagalog
Urkranian
Yiddish

    
    re: .18
    
    Thanks Carol.  I have also been doing this, plus contacting local
    libraries, and the federal translation service, to name a few!
    
    

Getting back to the base note, 

>    My teacher gave the class a phrase to decipher.  The phrase is:
    
>    "ZAZPIAK BAT!"

Did he literally say "decipher", not "translate?"

Clay

    

    
   < Did he literally say "decipher", not "translate?"
    
    Nope. He literally said "translate".  I mistakenly used "decipher"
    thinking the two were synonymous. Sorry for any confusion this may have
    caused.
    
    patty
      

    G'day,
    
     Sounds like a drunken 'Chesapeake Bay' said with teeth together ...
    
    like the Ali Baba open door sesame, sesawho? sezaMe...
    
    
    If I recall right, Bhat is the currency of Thailand..
    
    
    Maybe it is a sum of money like  a thousand Bhat...
    
    
    
    djw (with mindless meanderings...)
    

    Re .19
    
    You haven't got English (American or British) on your list of those
    eliminated

It's not Dutch, Flemish or Afrikaans either. 

Nit: Scandinavian isn't a language but a language group (for lack of a 
better word) which consists of Danish, Norwegian and Swedish. It's not one
of those either.

                                                        
                                                  - Rik -

    G'day,
     What of the native indian tribal languages?
    
    
    
    derek
    

    G'day again,
    
     remember this...
    YSURYSUB ICURYYFME
    
    
    Wise you are wise you be, I see you are too wise for me...
    
    ZAZPIAK BAT!
    
    See a sea. Pe(a) I ache Be ay Tea!
                 (e)
    
    may need work and a Boston Accent?
    
    derek
    

    Patty,
    
    I have decided that the phrase does not exist, and that your teacher
    is teaching you a very important point (especially for "Business Writing
    and Reports, Intensive"): People will lie to you.  They will tell you,
    with every evidence of sincerity, that something is true, and it isn't.
    
    You have also learned of several important research channels, and this
    is a Good Thing.
    
    							Ann B.

	One can only hope that you're not paying good money
	to "learn" such things, Patty.  If the teacher's that much
	of a git, I'd ask for a reimbursement.

    
    re: .29
    
    Yes, I agree.  Although I haven't been putting alot of time into this
    as of late, I will be very dissapointed if it is some "life lesson" and
    does not exist.  I probably won't ask for reimbursement, but I will let
    him know what I think of his little game. 
    
    re: .28
    
    Yes, I know people will lie to me. I hope he's not one of them.
    
    patty

    Well, I just ran a little test and determined that it doesn't yield a
    meaningful English phrase when any forward-rotation or reverse-rotation
    simple substitution cipher is used...

    I wonder what,if any ,significance does the exclaimation point have?
    
    Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?
    
    
    steve
    

    Re .32:
    
    In German, an exclamation point indicates imperative mood.  I think you
    ruled out German long ago, but are there other languages that use that
    convention?
    
    Of course, it might just indicate an exclamation.  Wild guess: Perhaps
    it *is* English, an exclamation about a bat (baseball, cricket, or
    animal) and the first word of the phrass indicates annoyance or some
    strong emotion.  (Of course, the question remains of what language the
    first word is from, not to mention what it actually means.)
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    
    re: exclamation point
    
    I asked the teacher; the exclamation point was his way of letting us
    know that it is an expression.  I didn't even figure that much out
    on my own! Jeepers!!
    
    I haven't been searching for a few days because my child is sick. I
    hope to be back in the library this weekend. Oh, tomorrow night is
    class, so if there are any specific questions anyone has and I can't
    answer them, I'll ask the teacher.  
    
    patty
    
    

    
    I received the following from an acquaintance in the Netherlands.
    I'll cross-post it in the India notesfile, but in case someone has some
    ideas on it, here goes:
    
  >>As far as my knowledge goes is the
  >>phrase comming from India or Pakistan.
  >>It means desirable/intellectual talk. Like for instance what we
  >>call Oxford English in England or Hoog Nederlands in my own language.
    
    

    >the exclamation point was [...] way of letting us
    >know that it is an expression.
    
    That certainly strikes me as a dishonest use of the exclamation point.
    Looks like the suggestions about lying were at least partially correct.
    
    -- Norman Diamond

    G'day,
    
     reminds me of the time the french teacher  wrote  
    
    Tant Pis   !
    
    on the board... and was heard to mutter "It means 'never mind'  and NOT
    'Aunt's in the lavatory'"
    
    
    That is an expression... notice the distance from the s to the !
    
    derek

    
    re. 36 and 37
    
    I think you two are on to something.  On the second day of class we had
    a new student. So, of course, the teacher once again wrote ZAZPIAK BAT
    on the board for him.  I noticed he wrote it _without_ the exclamation
    point and I asked him about it.  He said he wrote that punctuation
    so that we would know it was an expression. And, he said it as if to
    say, "come on, you could've figured that much out on your own."  
    
    I guess not or I wouldn't have asked!
    
    patty
    

You have to assume something here.  Many languages attach the person to the
end of the verb.  English except in certain cases does not.   
Assuming that either one of these words is a verb (I know I know it doesn't
have to be, however for arguments sake, let's try it):


In Armenian for example the -K ending on a verb is the plural "you" and 
can be used for either a regular verb or the imperative.  For example
"Uhrek" in armenian is "you do".  Now Armenian is a very old indo-European
language.  Its sibling languages in the language tree are Albanian and
Old-style Germanic.  I don't know any Albanian, and since no-one speaks
old-style germanic, and I can say with authority it is not armenian,
you might try Albanian.

Now if you assume that BAT is a verb, then I am definitely lost.


It's definitely not Turkish either.

    Verbs not necessary      !

    
    .39  hmmm, that definitely made me think.  I'll look into the Albanian 
    language.
    
    
    re: .40     Verbs not necessary      !
    
    Can you tell me what you mean?  

    >re: .40     Verbs not necessary      !
    >
    >Can you tell me what you mean?
    
    Yes.
    
    "This sentence no verb."  -- Douglas R. Hofstadter (_Goedel, Escher, Bach_)
    
    Also the first fragment of this reply, and the third, and the fourth.
    
    And finally, of course, an exclamation mark for an expression.

    re: -.1   oh, okay!  thanks!
    

There has not been  a posting here for ten days or so. What DID that phrase
mean? The suspense ...

    The coach didn't want Zazpiak to strike out?

    I believe the student will receive the correct answer (or at least the
    answer the teacher wanted) at the end of the course, late in August
    (the 20somethingth).
    
    					andrew

    
    August 23rd.  If I get any clues before then, I'll post them.
    
    patty
    

    
    I should also mention that I will not have the answer until I go
    to class on August 23rd, so I won't be able to post the answer until
    the following day.  Class is over at 10:00 p.m. eastern standard...
    
    patty
    

	Patty, can you also let us know why any responsible
	instructor would consider giving an "A" to a student in
	a course entitled "Business Writing and Reports, Intensive"
	for figuring out the answer (or the non-answer) to a question
	such as this?

	It's hard to imagine what's going through his head.

	Thanks,
	Diane

    Getting the correct answer requires perseverance and lots of
    research.  Sounds like "A" level work to me...
    
    					andrew

>    Getting the correct answer requires perseverance and lots of
>    research.  Sounds like "A" level work to me...

So does finding a cure for cancer, but it has nothing to do with business
writing and reports.

    	Maybe that is part of the clue. The oldest languages with reported
    business transactions are probably Sumerian and...?  The alphabet used
    would still be a problem, and why a student of modern business should
    have an interest in Sumerian is more of a problem. It is probably Urdu
    for "You're TFSO'd", which should be in any modern business managers
    vocabulary.

    
    to answer a few back, yes, I will ask him why the "A" was offered.
    I can speculate and say that it was offered because he knew no one
    would find the answer. I don't know for certain, but I'm willing to
    bet that if I didn't have a 4 month old baby, I'd be spending alot 
    more time in the library, or where ever research led me.  I've had to
    put this aside due to normal everyday life!  
    
    He probably wouldn't ask this of a day student, because he has
    mentioned several times that if we weren't "burdened" with our lives, we
    would be able to spend all weekend in a library or where ever we needed
    to be to get this answer.  I feel that he is betting on the fact that we 
    don't have a lot of free time; and we don't!  
    
    Wouldn't that be great if I could walk in there with the answer?!  

    Have you contacted the UN?  I suspect they might be able to help...

    
    yes, I did contact the U.N.
    
    They need a language to point me towards the right translators.
    
    good idea, though....
    

He sounds like a pompous boor to me.  His ideal is to waste as much of his
students' time as possible.

    
    I don't really know how to take him. My interest was high the first
    couple of nights, but he likes to make a lot of political and religious
    comments.....about which I'm glad that he has an opinion and I respect
    it, but I don't want it shoved at me at every turn.  He's also a 
    fish only vegetarian, which is fine, also, I have nothing against that.
    But, he refers to non-vegetarians as "those who have a taste for cooked
    animal". He has a way of making it sound very unpleasant.
    
    At one point, on his political soap box, he made the statement that 
    mothers should be home with their children, and he directed it toward
    me.  I said, "excuse me, but I am not working for fun money; I work to
    survive."  He made a comment about my child's first words being
    "mamaseeta" (I'm writing that phonetically...I think it's mom in another
    language.)  I ignored that comment since the sitter speaks English; why
    argue over nothing, right?  
    
    Well, still, soon he will tell me what ZAZPIAK BAT means and I will
    post it every where I possibly can! 
    
    

er yeah, sounds like "pompous boor" probably fits.  ;>

    	Maybe it would help to give him this string (complete) after he has
    awarded marks. You have my permission to extract anything I have
    written in this string. Any objections? And yes, on balance I am
    inclined to believe that he is a pompous boor.

>> Any objections?

	Yes - 'twould not exactly be the classiest thing to
	do, would it?

    
    re: .59
    
    I have to agree with the last note (.60). To do that would be "lowering"
    myself to his level. He does act pretty pompous. That's what I don't
    get about this guy. Well, whatever, we shall all know what Zazpiak bat 
    means soon, and I have an "A" in the class already, so all is right 
    with the world!
    
                                                                
    

    After the exercise is through, ask him what he expected you to learn.
    Personally, I think it's stirred the brain cells of more than one
    person, and for that alone I deem it worthwhile.
    
    					andrew

His comments also give me reason to believe that there's grounds for 
harassment charges.  He is making it uncomfortable for students to be in
his class on the grounds of their sex.  Even if you don't file charges,
*someone* should let this guy know that his comments are inappropriate.

     Carol

    
    re: .62  Andrew, I couldn't agree with you more. Although I'm tired and 
    weary from the class and from searching for ZAZPIAK BAT, I still want
    to know what it means! (along with thousands of other people!)
    
    re: .63  Carol, Oops, I didn't mention that he apologized for offending me.
    I can't see bringing him up on charges, anyway. I wasn't *that*
    offended! And I certainly didn't feel uncomfortable returning to class the
    next week. He's free to have his own opinions, I just don't want to hear 
    them all the time!:')  And besides, 6 years in the Marine Corps showed
    me the definition of "harassment"!  I'll be sure to recognize it if I
    run into it again!
    
    
    

    I'll agree with Carol:  "Someone should let this guy know that his
    comments are inappropriate."  If for no other reason than that he
    will know to tone them down, so that a more sensitive person will
    not charge him with harassment in the future.
    
    							Ann B.

    That kind of sexism has no place in the classroom, and it wasn't
    an honest mistake by the person.  I would submit a formal complaint
    to the person's employer even if I had some reason not to be
    personally offended.
    
    Also "fish only vegetarian" is an oxymoron at least twice over.
    Most vegetables aren't fish.  In fact, all vegetables aren't fish.
    Fish are animals, and the person has a taste for cooked animals.
    I've travelled in countries where vegetarianism is common for
    religious or social reasons.  The difference between a vegetarian
    and non-vegetarian meal is an *egg*.  I am not a vegetarian, but
    I think it is not difficult for an honest person to have a bit
    more respect for the idea than that shyster has.
    
    -- Norman Diamond

    
    As I mentioned, he did apologize, and that is good enough for me.
    That may not sit well with some of you, but it is my decision.
    

    Given that this guy is a "philosopher", maybe there IS a point to 
    this exercise.
    
    I think there were three or four "international languages". This
    definitely is not Esperanto, but could it Voluspuk? or Interlingua?
    (I'm not sure of the spelling here). His point could be that
    artificial languages never became accepted by the mass of people
    intended. Maybe a quick check of an encyclopedia could yield some info
    on the non-Esperanto languages.
    
    -Neil

    
    Hmmm... it's worth a shot.  I'll let you know what I find. 
    
    Thanks!

>>    Given that this guy is a "philosopher", maybe there IS a point to 
>>    this exercise.

	I, for one, didn't mean to imply that I think there's no point
	to this exercise, certainly.  I love this kind of challenge.
	It's the idea of getting an automatic "A" for solving it that
	seems - well - ridiculous, at first glance anyways.

    John Covert has found the solution.  See CDSRV::ASKENET_V5, note
    445.54.  The language is Basque.
    
    -dick

    >>                   -< Can I preen myself on .3 ;-) >-

    

	preen away. ;>  you deserve it.

    
    re: .72  
    
    Oops, I never did follow up on that lead.  My mistake; seems I could 
    have ended this weeks ago!! Well, it's actually on hold until I can
    research and find out the meaning!  Stay tuned!
    
    patty
    

    
    Wait a minute!! Basque was ruled out!  I'll go through my notes to
    see why.....this'll have to wait, though.  My notes are at home.
    
    I'll get back to you as soon as I can...... patty
    

John's been known to pull pranks before.

John's not pranking this time!  He had it, and I would have had it, if only
    I hadn't listened to several "experts" who said, "Oh, no, it can't be
    that"!  I have a few phone calls to make...... 
    

    
ZAZPIAK BAT!

The language is Basque and its literal meaning is "the seven into one".

Zazpi means seven
bat means one

A Zazpiak bat is a shield commonly made of seven layers of leather.
(The seven into one for strength)

Basque is located in Southern France/Northern Spain.
The French consider Basque part of France and the Spanish
consider it part of Spain.  But Basque wants to be its
own identity. They speak three languages, French, Spanish, and
Basque. The Basque language is considered to be made up of French
and Spanish, but it is not!

There are seven "counties" (for lack of a better word)
that make up Basque, and they wish to be considered one.

This information comes from "A Comparitive Study of Basque and Greek 
Vocabulary"  ....I didn't catch the authors name.

The majority of Jai aLai players are from Basque. So....if you ever run
into one, they will be most impressed if you say Zazpiak Bat!

Never yell this in a Spanish airport.

    re: .77
>Basque is located in Southern France/Northern Spain.
>The French consider Basque part of France and the Spanish
>consider it part of Spain.  But Basque wants to be its
>own identity. They speak three languages, French, Spanish, and
>Basque. The Basque language is considered to be made up of French
>and Spanish, but it is not!
    
    	"ETA" stands for "Basque Separatist Movement", but in Basque. They
    are the ones that blow up airports and police stations.
    
    	In France the Basques learn Basque as their mother tongue, and then
    later learn French at school. In Spain they learn Basque as their
    mother tongue and learn Spanish at school. When they are smuggling
    across the border (not needed much these days) they use Basque.
    
    	Anyone who has heard Basque could not possibly mistake it for
    either French or Spanish. I have heard it on French television with
    French subtitles. The last I heard it was considered to be a
    non-European language since linguists could not distinguish Latin,
    German or Celtic roots in it.
    
    	Personally I have a lot of sympathy for the Basque separatists
    (though not their techniques). Having a national border sliced through
    the middle of your racial and linguistic group, and then having people
    on one side forced to learn one foreign language, while people on the
    other side are forced to learn another foreign language must be a bit
    annoying.
    

	So, this means you're getting an "A", no?

    And basque in reflected glory while receiving an inappropriate
    benefit from that basquet case of a professor....

    	My French teacher at school used to tell a very long story about a
    fire in a cinema in southern France.... imagine long narrative
    section...  and concluded with "and that's what happens when you have
    all your Basques in one exit".

    
    yes, I'm getting an "A".  Also, a year's worth of free consultation
    from this English professor. I'm not sure how to respond...!
    

It sounds like some of the people in this notesfile would like to give him
a "free consultation."

>It sounds like some of the people in this notesfile would like to give him
>a "free consultation."
    
    Some of us want him to pay.

    Re .84
    
    >> a "free consultation."
    
    > Some of us want him to pay.
    
    This is not an oxymoron.  A "free consultation" can result in the
    consultee's paying quite a lot; for example, suppose the consultant
    happens to be in the business of kneecapping.