Conference taveng::bagels

    It is difficult, isn't it? Perhaps the close military
    cooperation between Israel and the Republic of South Africa
    contributes to the affinity you pointed out. [see topic 668.*]
    
    Of course, the Israeli Knesset voted (more than a year ago) to
    avoid initiating any *new* military and weapons-codevelopment
    agreements with the South African regime, we are told. As
    I understand it, detailed information (about ongoing weapons
    projects, the Knesset's decision, and its impact) is unavailable.
    

    Re .0:
    
    Not so surprising really.....Bishop Desmond Tutu, a man who kept audiences
    of Christian American liberals enthralled with tirades against
    Apartheid during his tour of the US a couple of years ago, had nothing 
    good to say about Israel and its handling of the Palestinian refugee 
    problem recently. Irony of ironies, the perceptions have certainly
    shifted over the last 40 years.....in 1948, the perception was that 
    liberals in America generally supported the idea of an independent
    Jewish state while conservatives were often pictured as being rabid
    anti-semites. Lo and behold, 40 years later, we see the new left embracing
    the enemies of Israel (and by extension, potential adversaries of
    the US) as conservatives for the most part stand behind Israel.
    
    IMHO since one of the first statements out of Mandela after his release
    was, "The revolution must go on!", there shouldn't be any doubt
    about Arafat's long term goals.
    
    FWIW,
    
    Mark 

It's an old joke that we respond to every event by asking, "Is it good for
the Jews, or bad for the Jews?"

Japan and Western Europe have gotten cozy with the PLO in recent years.
The Pope met with Arafat.  Even conservative Republican administrations
in the U.S. hold talks with the PLO.

Is it really so significant that Nelson Mandela is as friendly with the
PLO as most of the rest of the world is?

    Re .1:
    
    I forgot to ask in .2 if you were just as concerned when it was
    revealed some 20 years ago that the People's Republic of China (you'll
    recall at that time the communist bloc was still in a semi-monolithic
    state), after "leading the fight" against the injustice of apartheid
    (Mao, like Stalin, will of course go down in history as one of the
    world's great humanitarians) was one of the RSA's major trading
    partners!
    
    Mark

    	A few things to add here:
    First, not only was Arafat the first guy Mandela embraced once out
    of South Africa, Nelson also wished Arafat a complete victory in his
    fight against "the unique form of colonialism" PLO was struggling
    against.
    
    Second, Tutu is a hypocrite. He had not even five minutes to spare
    while in Israel, when the delegations of Black Ethiopian Jews asked
    to meet with him. Yet, he had days to spare in the Palestinian
    villages. Also, he condemned Israel harshly for its handling of the
    Palestinians, all the while asking the Jews to forgive the Nazis
    completely, because it's been so long after the Holocaust.
    
    Third, Mcallen, take you insinuations to the garbage heap of history
    where they belong. If you want to condemn Israel for its former
    alliance with RSA, why don't you condemn PLO for their circle of
    illustrious patrons and friends, such as Khaddafi, Honnecker, Brezhnev,
    Hussain, Jibril, Nicolae the Rumanian Vampire, North Korea, Red
    Brigades, Fidel and a whole host of other "liberation" celebrities.
    Double standard, if I ever saw one.
    
    DG

>                                         <<< Note 897.3 by ERICG::ERICG "Eric Goldstein" >>>
>                                                    -< Much Ado About Nothing >-
>
>
>"Is it really so significant that Nelson Mandela is as friendly with the
>PLO as most of the rest of the world is?"
>

To me, it is significant!  Here, I've been thinking of Mandela as an honorable
man fighting for freedom with the cards stacked against him, who couldn't be
bought, couldn't be tortured into denying he wanted freedom for his people.  I
thought a person of honor would behave with honor.

The press certainly has portrayed him that way...  

But seeing him embracing Arafat leaves me thinking he's not different from any
other politician: whatever hand drenched in whoever's blood reaches out with 
assistance toward his goal, that hand will he shake with!

Tamar

    Re Goykhman in 897.5:
    
    It may be premature to label Israel's alliance with
    RSA a "former" one. The way I heard it, the Israeli
    Knesset voted not to initiate new military codevelopment
    pacts with RSA. It did not vote to terminate, cancel
    or shorten existing ones, I guess. Since these agreements
    cover weapons and security programs, naturally it is
    hard to learn about the details.
    
    Who is critical of Israel for its military dealings with
    RSA? I am interested to learn what they are, and would
    need to know more before making any value judgement. Is this
    a matter that should not be aired in the BAGELS conference?
    Perhaps DG feels RSA-Israeli connections do NOT influence
    Mandela, his outlook, or alliances? At some point I suppose
    we'll also want to discuss former Mossad official Mike Harari (sp?)
    and his Noriega dealings, perhaps in a dedicated (fresh) topic.
    			thanks
    			John
    

    	From what I've seen, you've made your value judgements a long
    time ago, along with your convictions on the Iran-Contra affair and
    anything else that could possibly be aligned along the right-left
    split as you see it.
    	Perhaps John feels the PLO-ANC-USSR-Syria-.... alliances do NOT
    influence Israel, its outlook or connections. All I think that
    shouldn't be aired in ANY Notes conference is an obvious double
    standard, be it about Israel, Mars, or whatever.
    
    Enough, it's just my personal opinion.
    
    DG

    Re .8 by DG:
    Please focus on the topic DG, not on me. I was only
    responding to the basenote's author, who expressed
    dismay and surprise at Mandela hugging Arafat.
    
    Most anyone would agree that the ANC is an "insurgent"
    movement, regardless of its merits, the origin of its
    funding, or its Marxist(?) politics. I guess it's fair to
    say Israeli defense exports include services as well as
    weapons & equipment. As I understand it, the "services" part
    focuses on training for a client's (purchaser state's) military
    and paramilitary forces. Israel is especially well known for
    its counterinsurgency and paratroop training services (exports),
    I believe.
    
    These exports are not surprising, and I don't raise the issue as a
    criticism of Israel. A great many countries export such military
    services and materials in much greater quantities, although not
    necessarily so *to RSA*. Of course RSA (in recent history) has had
    immense "requirements" for counterinsurgency training, and can offer
    gold (and even nuclear materials) to pay for such services. To what
    extent Israel and/or RSA are *genuinely percieved*, by PLO and/or ANC,
    as imperialist or colonialist enclaves is always subject to argument.
    And I'm referring to perceptions, not necessarily reality, again
    in response to the basenote. How is Israel perceived by ANC, in
    light of Israel's military dealings with RSA, and with Zaire, for
    example? [Zaire has been a major clandestine transhipment point
    for US suppport of RSA incursions into Angola etc.]
    

    	I dunno, is there proof for "USA support of RSA incursions into
    Angola"? Through Zaire, no less? Does ANC automatically embrace the
    movemements that are perceived as being enemies of South Africa's
    trading partners? For example, is the ANC then an enemy of the United
    States, especially in light of your "info" I quoted above? Japan is
    the biggest trading partner of South Africa's. Would you expect and 
    condone Mandela embracing and encouraging the leaders of the Japanese
    Red Army, congradulating them on blowing up a Japanese capitalist?
    KGB has been the biggest non-Arab supporter of the PLO. Should Mandela
    embrace the KGB killers as well? How far does one carry the excuses
    for shaking a bloodstained hand?
    	Either one condemns BOTH sides for dealing with shady allies, or
    one tries to set up a differentiated moral stance based on how bad
    these allies are, or one takes a pragmatical position and blames
    nobody. For what it's worth, a lot of people (including myself:-)
    regard Arafat and his friends AT LEAST as despicable as De Klerk.
    
    DG

    re .9 
    
    On Israeli-African relations: in the 60's Israel had diplomatic
    relations with two dozen African nations and exported agricultural
    technology and training to many African countries. Most E.European and
    African states severed diplomatic relations after immense Arab and
    Soviet pressure. Agricultural exports were no longer welcome, as
    Africa seemed to prefer political "purity" over well-fed population.
    
    Israel would love to export its oranges...
    
    Alex

    Let's not forget the "Zionist Imperialism" party line that has echoed
    from Moscow to Peking to ANC meetings to Arafat to Libya to wherever.
    
    Let's also not forget that we here variations on this same party
    line here during US elections from the likes of Louis F. and Jesse
    J.
    
    So it seems pretty clear to me that most of the left-wing terrorists
    of the world (Mandela, Arafat, Khaddafi) are united in one thing
    even if they can't agree on anything else - the Israeli's are the
    "bad guys" in the Middle East and the Palestinian terrorists are
    "freedom fighters".
    
    US support for Israel (despite the Pollard Case et al, the two
    countries do cooperate - Haifa is a major port call for the US 6th
    Fleet BTW) gets Washington labeled (whatever administration is in
    office) as a "stooge of Zionist Imperialism" and causes said terrorists
    to go gunning for Americans as well. They should be aware that whatever
    differences the US and Israel may have are usually forgotten when
    it looks like Israel is on the ropes, as they were initially during
    the 1973 War. The US emptied its tank parks in Germany and flew
    in rush shipments of replacement tanks for the IDF when it looked
    like the Arab States were gaining the upper hand.
    
    The US may disagree occasionally with Israel on policy but the
    alternative (loss of the only democratic state in the whole region)
    is basically unthinkable.
    
    FWIW,
    
    Mark

re: .11 and others

>    On Israeli-African relations: in the 60's Israel had diplomatic
>    relations with two dozen African nations and exported agricultural
>    technology and training to many African countries. Most E.European and
>    African states severed diplomatic relations after immense Arab and
>    Soviet pressure. Agricultural exports were no longer welcome, as
>    Africa seemed to prefer political "purity" over well-fed population.
    
	This is true -- but I think the problem runs somewhat deeper.

	1) About 50% to 60% of the countries in the world honor the
	   Arab boycott of Israel, to a greater or lesser extent.
	   For example, until 1988, the only Japanese cars you could buy
	   here were Subaru, Suzuki, and Daihatsu.  Now, just think,
	   you can by a Mitsubishi.  And next year, you'll be able to
	   buy (only) _American-made_ Toyotas and Hondas.

	   South Africa has been a reliable trading partner for Israel
	   in many areas _outside_ of arms.  Haven't any of you ever
	   been in a supermarket in Israel and looket to see how many
	   of the canned goods, etc., have their origin in RSA?

	   Why?  We are able to buy them from RSA, at a reasonable price.

	2) RSA has a large Jewish population.  It has been a source of
	   significant aliyah.  Many believe it will/could continue to
	   be a source of significant aliyah.  As with aliyah from other
	   "developed/western" countries, from which the olim "have a
	   choice" -- such as US, UK, ..., one key to this aliyah is the 
	   possibility of return to the original country.  

	   This is much different than the case of aliyah from USSR, Arab
	   countries, etc.


>    Israel would love to export its oranges...
    
	   Yep.  That's the other part.  Y'know - those countries that won't
	   _sell_ to us??  Guess what?  They also won't _buy_ from us 
	   either.

	   The RSA will.

Strange bedfellows?  Perhaps.  Would Israel _prefer_ to have an open trading
relationship with other countries, such as Japan, to avoid the RSA "stigma"?
I certainly expect so.  So, we're talking again, as usual, about the continued 
existence of this enterprise. 

don feinberg

re .11:

>	2) RSA has a large Jewish population.  It has been a source of
>	   significant aliyah.  Many believe it will/could continue to
>	   be a source of significant aliyah.  As with aliyah from other
>	   "developed/western" countries, from which the olim "have a
>	   choice" -- such as US, UK, ..., one key to this aliyah is the 
>	   possibility of return to the original country.  

I believe it's very difficult for South Africans to take their assets with
them when they emigrate, since the RSA government wants to discourage "white
flight."  I imagine some South Africans making aliyah retain business
interests in South Africa.  Any South Africans out there to verify this?

    I read in a recent Maariv weekly magazine about the new yeridah of
    South Africans back to the RSA.  There were many comments about the
    lack of tolerance for the bureaucracy and "work ethic" in Israel. 
    Given the ongoing transition to democracy in the RSA I wouldn't be
    surprised to see half of Savyon return.  After all when the generals
    were overthrown in Argentina many Jews returned to there also.
    
    --David