Conference taveng::bagels

    Mark,
    
    I think that you'll be culturally fully converted when you no longer 
    have a desire to eat food that your mind regards as treifa. 
    
    Having never eat either of these I can't help except to suggest 
    that you speak to your kosher butcher. (Is ham smoked?, if so 
    try to get some similarly prepared kosher meat). 
    
    Malcolm

Re: .0

Mendel's Heimish 
3301 Atlantic Ave. 
Bklyn, N.Y. 11208
(718) 827-9000

Currently they produce such delicacies as substitute shellfish, shrimp,
crab and lobster. 

There are many other products on the market, but I don't have a reference.
I'd suggest going to a Kosher food market, and asking there. There is also
a Kosher food trade show held periodically at the Javits Center in N.Y.,
where new products along these lines are prominently displayed. I understand
the next one will be in Feb. '90.

Jem

BTW, there is nothing wrong with *desiring* these foods, even in the original!
Rashi, Biblical commentator *par excellance*, puts it this way: Never should a
person think, "I am disgusted with pork." Rather he should always think,
"I'd love to eat pork, But the Alm-ghty has forbidden it to me." In this way,
the reward for abstinence is increased. I'm not sure how authentic these
substitutes taste, but I'm sure that they will not erase the reward altogether.
	:-)

    	Good Turkey ham is as good as any pork ham. It may be a little
    saltier, but otherwise it's delicious. Same goes for turkey hot dogs.
    As far as seafood, I think pollock is used to make "subsitute" clams,
    scallops, etc. If it's fresh and tender, you can't tell the difference
    when cooked right.
    
    DG

Shalom Mark,

I have never seen any Kosher product which attempts to imitate clams.  I have
seen products which attempt to imitate crab, lobster and shrimp.  These when
served with cocktail sauce are an adequate substitute.

As to ham, it depends on which variety you are trying to duplicate.  For
certain cold-cut types, there are good beef imitations.  Bloch and Falk in
particular (notice the plug Dave  8^{) make European cold-cuts which
duplicate wursts which are usually made with pork.  For duplicating whole
hams, there are some smoked turkey breast products that might do.  I never
was fond of that so we didn't go looking when we started to keep kosher.
I have never seen anything that remotely resembles ham steak.

If you get into Brookline (ie: when hunting for books) the Butcherie has the
best selection of that stuff in greater Boston so you might check there.  I
believe most people keeping kosher to the north of Boston get kosher meat
delivery from someplace in Revere.  Good luck.

L'hit,
Gavriel

    I noticed the plug, thanks Gav, ;-.
    
    Bloch & Falk also produces some stuff that you won't find in the
    Butcherie (not yet), such as smoked westphalian beef.  Our smoked
    turkey leg has ALWAYS fooled people into thinking that it was ham.
    If you want more information send me mail.
    
    --David

    You made me feel nostalgic when I read your comments about Bloch and
    Falk.  In addition to all else they have the best pistachio bologna and
    landjaegers anywhere!
    
    Seriously, I grew up in Washington Heights where they are located and
    have enjoyed their products until I moved west many years ago.  I
    visited them 3 years ago and they still have excellent German style
    cold cuts.  They vacuum pack and ship anywhere.
    
    In addition to B&F there were many other Kosher German style butchers
    that produced cold cuts.  Some are Schild Brothers, Koesterich and
    Guttman & Meyer.  I don't know if any of them are still in business. 
    You could call information at area code 212.  They were all located in
    uptown Manhattan.
    
    Oh, I think pastrami can be fried as a bacon substitute.  Good luck on
    your conversion.
    

    Re .6:
    
    Thanks.....Pastrami is something we have on a fairly regular basis
    so I'll set some aside next time.
    
    Mark

re .6:
    Guttman & Meyer are out of business.

    re: .6
    
    I wouldn't suggest frying the pastrami for a bacon substitute. 
    Practically all kosher markets sell beef fry, this has been the generic
    kosher substitute for years.
    
    --David

    we used to use corned beef, i guess the pastrami would be a bit
    spicier.  haven't seen beef fry in years -- altho my local finast
    doesn't carry much like that.  can't even find the big box of shabbos
    candles lately.
    
    /sandy
    

    Beef fry ain't corned beef although they look alike.
    
    David

    It's 11:30 am, over here, and I start getting HUNGRY! Seriously ;-)
    
    Thinking about it, there were (and hopefully still are) some EXCELLENT
    kosher butchers in Vienna, offering the entire palette of Wurst, Ham,
    what have we (and there are more variants in Vienna than in Germany,
    so, there!), homemade and of superb quality.
    
    Nostalgically yours,
    
    Chris

    I believe that there were good kosher butchers in Vienna, but they
    would have had a tough time getting a hechsher selling ham.
    
    --David

    Perhaps they sell turkey ham?  I don't care for the stuff, but if you
    want cured meat I guess it is OK.
    
    Beef frye still exists, although I haven't had any in a couple of years
    - I don't really like it much.  It definitely does not resemble bacon
    in the least bit, though, except possibly in appearance.  Console
    yourself instead with the idea that bacon isn't at all good for you, as
    well as not being kosher, and eat fish for breakfast!
    
    /Charlotte

    I think it is an appropriate place for the following joke:
    
    
Article         1388
Path: ryn!shlump.nac.dec.com!decwrl!wuarchive!cs.utexas.edu!ssbn!looking!funny-request
From: peralta@pinocchio.encore.com (Rick Peralta)
Newsgroups: rec.humor.funny
Subject: Family humor
Message-ID: <69856@looking.on.ca>
Date: 1 Jan 90 00:30:07 GMT
 
A coworker came up with this one.  The original source is lost.
 
Around Holiday time we all get to see the family and pass on lore and gossip.
One day a little girl was watching her mother make a great roast beef.  She
cut off the ends, wrapped it in string, seasoned it and set it in the great
roasting pan.  The little girl asked her mother why she cut off the end of
the roast.  The mother said after some thought that it was the way that her
mother had done it.  That weekend grandma came over to visit and the little
girl and the mother went to her and asked why she had cut the end off of the
roast before cooking.  After some thought replied, because that was the way
her mother had done it.  Now great grandmother was quite old and in a nursing
home.  But the little girl had the chance the next weekend to see her and
asked again the questions.  She looked at them a bit annoyed and said, "Why
so it would fit in the pan, of course."
 

    Wait, Dave, don't get me wrong: these guys in Vienna definitely sold
    what they called "Westfalian Ham", "Salami", et.al.
    
    I'm sure that no pork meat was used. Must have been veal or similar
    which they smoked and spiced accordingly, so to fit as close as
    possible with the taste of the "original".
    
    Clarifyingly yours,
    
    Chris

    Re .15:
    
    Groan.......
    
    Mark

re .15:

    I saw this joke in another notesfile, with one major difference:
    it was a ham.

    A honourable (Christian) family marries their son to another honourable
    (Jewish) family's daughter (or vice-versa).
    
    In order not to offend anybody, the relatives of both families had been
    invited for the wedding dinner, altogether with the town's bishop and
    rabbi.
    
    For about the 7th course, Ham cooked in Portwine is served. The Rabbi
    and the Jewish community cordially decline being served.
    
    Says the Bishop: "Rabbi, this is getting ridiculous: after all these
    milleniums of useless deprivation, I wonder when you finally will start
    eating Ham, again?"
    
    Says the Rabbi:
    
    
    "On your wedding day, your Eminency, on your wedding day."