Conference taveng::bagels

re: .0

And who should pay for the services provided to the territories over the years,
which far exceeded the services ever provided by Jordan?

--David

    	 Sounds like Massachusetts. The exercise is left to the doubter -
    send them messages that you won't pay taxes because roads are poor,
    and too much is spent on Massachusetts State Police. Better yet, try
    and send a similar letter to the IRS, see what happens to your
    business, wages, home and freedom.
    
    DG

The "Tax Uprising" is another aspect of the complicated situation that prevails 
in the so called "Occupied Territories" and the Israeli Palestinians struggle.

By dealing with the subject piece by piece (such as: Promised land, The Pop
and the.., and the current note) you might loose very quickly the real
perspective of the entire issue (see my reply in 813.17).

    Re: And who should pay for the services provided to the territories
        over the years, which far exceeded the servcies ever provided
        by Jordan?


    
    Oh, thank you, massa.  How could they be so ungrateful!  Of course, you
    ignore the fact that, before the Intifada, Israel was making a tidy
    profit from the territories, an estimated $100 million in 1986 if
    my recollection of the amount is correct.  Not to mention having a
    pool of cheap labor available to do the scut work Israeli Jews won't
    do, namely the Palestinians who used to be farmers and whose farm
    lands have been confiscated ay Israel.  Nor did Jordan engage in
    wholesale confiscation of Palestinian land and water resources in the
    territories, as Israel has done.  And, according to a friend of mine
    who lived under
    both occupations, even when the Palestinians were in active
    revolt against Jordanian rule, the level of brutality of the Jordanians
    never approached that of the IDF thugs.
    

    re: 822.4

    >                   , before the Intifada, Israel was making a tidy
    >profit from the territories, an estimated $100 million in 1986 if
    >my recollection of the amount is correct.

    It wasn't a one way deal; the Arab population benefited far more
    economically than under Jordan.

    >                                  And, according to a friend of mine
    >who lived under
    >both occupations, even when the Palestinians were in active
    >revolt against Jordanian rule, the level of brutality of the Jordanians
    >never approached that of the IDF thugs.
    
    That may be what your friend told you, but the casualty figures I've
    seen don't bear it out.

    Side note:

    The gratuitous characterization of the IDF as "thugs" is a good
    illustration of one of the major obstacles to progress; as long as people
    insist on describing members of the other side in dehumanizing terms
    (and I regret to say that I've heard it on both sides), the chances of
    achieving effective communication are pretty small.

    re: 822.4
    
    She's back.... 
    
    Aaron, the use of the word "thugs" is nothing... you should read what
    she uses in talk.politics.mideast.
    
    

    	Karen, I believe if you look at statistics such as roads/area,
    # of schools and hospital beds, life expectancy and income levels,
    you'll see an amazing improvement in the Palestinians' standard of
    living. Both sides benefited, that's the whole idea.
    	As far as Jordanians' brutality, you've gotta be kidding. People
    in Jerusalem still tell stories of the Jordanian Army shelling and
    flattening whole quarters in  disturbances in the 60's. Bodies were
    bulldozed into piles... That same active revolt didn't have the press
    coverage intifada does, or you'd listen twice to your friends' stories.
    
    DG

>As far as Jordanians' brutality, you've gotta be kidding. People
>in Jerusalem still tell stories of the Jordanian Army shelling and
>flattening whole quarters in  disturbances in the 60's. Bodies were
>bulldozed into piles... That same active revolt didn't have the press
>coverage intifada does, or you'd listen twice to your friends' stories.

And let's not forget the Jordanians turning our synagogues into barns, etc.

Re: "Darling" Karen, well well I was wondering where she had been hibernating
all this time.  Aaron you are much too kind in your remarks, you should have
heard what I was saying under my breath...

--David

    > And let's not forget the Jordanians turning our synagogues into
    > barns, etc.
    
    Seven generations of my ancestors are buried on Har-Hazeitim. Only
    one tombstone was intact upon liberation in 1967. 
    
    Jem

I didn't want to response because I'm not sure whether the author of 822.4
is in "transmit only" mode or she is receiving anything too ,but because 
some people might be mislead by her (and her good friends) I'll try to
add some of my "poor" knowledge. 

Although I must admits that the Jordanian soldiers are one of the most moderate 
among the Arabs, it is ridiculous to compare their attitude to the Palestinians
with the Israeli ones. Please ask your friends how many Palestinians were 
slaughtered by the Jordanians during November 1970 (black November) - if
I'm not wrong much more than have been killed by Israelis during decades
of real conflict- and not to mention what the Syrians and the Lebaneses did
and still do to the Palestinians.

I just wonder how will the Boston or New York police will react if someone
will throw at them rocks or Molotov Cocktails (whatever cause he has). 

As to the note topic itself, I have been in Biet Sachoor few times since
1967 including last summer and you will probably be surprised to know that
many houses there are much prettier than many even in Boston suburbia, not
to mention other neighborhoods in the country, and most of them are new
constructions.

Now, you probably wouldn't believe all of that, and if you want to know the
"holly truth" by yourself, I've got two suggestions: either go to Israel and
visit the west bank (it's a free country despite what many thinks) and you
will be able to visit all of this places (if your good friends will let you in),
or go to one of those "moderate Arab countries"  and live there as a 
Palestinian (not as an American), and if you do that I would very much like
to know who will be your friends when you come back (if at all).

-- Jacob    

>Now, you probably wouldn't believe all of that, and if you want to know the
>"holly truth" by yourself, I've got two suggestions: either go to Israel and
>visit the west bank (it's a free country despite what many thinks) and you
>will be able to visit all of this places (if your good friends will let you in),
>or go to one of those "moderate Arab countries"  and live there as a 
>Palestinian (not as an American), and if you do that I would very much like
>to know who will be your friends when you come back (if at all).

Considering that you're a relative new contributor to this conference you 
don't know about Karen.  In her mind (and her friends) the Jews have no right
to any land, and the only reality should be that great proposition of the 
PLO, the "democratic/secular state of Palestine".  Spare your fingers the work,
Jacob, it won't help.

--David  

Thx David, I suspected that this is the situation but decided to respond 
because there might be some other new readers who also don't know about Karen .

Besides , you probably know (if you read Maariv) that even some of 
"karen best friends" Have been reconsidering their attitude lately realizing
the rising power of the fanatic "Hamas" movement and the execution of
136!! Palestinians during the uprising (according to last week Boston Globe ) 
by their "patriotic Arab brothers".

>>   	Karen, I believe if you look at statistics such as roads/area,
>>   # of schools and hospital beds, life expectancy and income levels,
>>    you'll see an amazing improvement in the Palestinians' standard of
>>    living. Both sides benefited, that's the whole idea.

      For God sake!!! since when military occupation can be of any benifit
      to the inhabitants. 
      Roads:   Do you know the number of automobiles' accidents and 
                injuries caused by not building traffic lights in West
                Bank. The military occupation says, no traffic lights
                are permitted in any West Bank city. There is not even
                one traffic light in any city.

      Education: alas, go find out how much an Arab teacher in West Bank
                gets paid ( around $200 a month ) compared to any teacher 
                in Israel. How about the military shutting down West Bank
                schools for two years ! Very beneficial for the inhabitants !
          


>>    	As far as Jordanians' brutality, you've gotta be kidding. People
>>    in Jerusalem still tell stories of the Jordanian Army shelling and
>>    flattening whole quarters in  disturbances in the 60's. Bodies were
>>    bulldozed into piles... That same active revolt didn't have the press
>>    coverage intifada does, or you'd listen twice to your friends' stories.

     and from another note:
     
>>Although I must admits that the Jordanian soldiers are one of the most moderate 
>>among the Arabs, it is ridiculous to compare their attitude to the Palestinians
>>with the Israeli ones. Please ask your friends how many Palestinians were 
>>slaughtered by the Jordanians during November 1970 (black November) - if
>>I'm not wrong much more than have been killed by Israelis during decades
>>of real conflict- and not to mention what the Syrians and the Lebaneses did
>>and still do to the Palestinians.

      I wonder what wrong the Palestinians did in the past that they getting
      beaten, kicked, buried alive, demolishing entire homes, confiscating
      their lands. This has been going on for years.

      Everybody is inflicting damages to the Palestinians, and here some
      are arguing who inflicted the least or the most !

      By the way, speaking about the brutality of Black November, it was
      mentioned in this notes file that the Israelis aided the Jordanians
      military to do their task properly against the Palestinians. Also,
      not to forget, the big military assistance in accomplishing the
      Sabra and Shataila massacre against the Palestinian civilians.

      
    
  
>>I just wonder how will the Boston or New York police will react if someone
>>will throw at them rocks or Molotov Cocktails (whatever cause he has). 

     I didn't know that the Boston Police is occupying Boston city in 
     a military fashion :-). If it's then lets have an Intifada in Boston 
     too :-) !


>>As to the note topic itself, I have been in Biet Sachoor few times since
>>1967 including last summer and you will probably be surprised to know that
>>many houses there are much prettier than many even in Boston suburbia.

      How about a short visit to Gaza ? did you notice the same pretty 
      houses or other parts of West Bank towns and refugee camps.

>>"holly truth" by yourself, I've got two suggestions: either go to Israel and
>>visit the west bank (it's a free country despite what many thinks) and you
>>will be able to visit all of this places (if your good friends will let you in),
>>or go to one of those "moderate Arab countries"  and live there as a 
>>Palestinian (not as an American), and if you do that I would very much like
>>to know who will be your friends when you come back (if at all).

       Why is it every time the Palestinian question is debated, the Arab
       countries are mentioned. Did the Palestinians shape or create these
       countries ? Or these countries are mentioned to say that the Israeli
       government is no better than the Arab government ?
       
       


>>Besides , you probably know (if you read Maariv) that even some of 
>>"karen best friends" Have been reconsidering their attitude lately realizing
>>the rising power of the fanatic "Hamas" movement and the execution of
>>136!! Palestinians during the uprising (according to last week Boston Globe ) 
>>by their "patriotic Arab brothers".

    It was mentioned here and reported in the past that "Hamas" movement 
    was encouraged by some Israeli officials. I wonder why ...
    
>>   Seven generations of my ancestors are buried on Har-Hazeitim. Only
>>   one tombstone was intact upon liberation in 1967. 

      I didn't know that occupying a land is now called liberation.
      Maybe occupying the rest of the Middle East is also considered 
      the liberation of Great Israel.

    	The facts are still too stubborn. You try to twist them by
    substituting a secondary effect for the primary - an old trick.
    	For example, when discussing the standard of living measurements,
    you ignore the benefits that come from increased road mileage, and
    concentrate on the lack of traffic lights. That's laughable, and is
    akin to a starving man complaining about the lack of salt in his food,
    all the while ignoring that starviation is the only alternative to this
    "plain" bread of his. Education is another one - you ignore the
    literacy rates rise over the last twenty years, the new schools and
    universities, and complain that they were closed over the last two
    years (due to intifada, so that makes it a circular argument to begin
    with). Same goes for comapring teachers' salaries - why not compare
    them to Jordanian teachers? For what it's worth, it's utter nonsense
    to compare the standard of living between West Bank and Tel Aviv, all
    the while trying to separate the two lands.
    	Finally, there are plenty of things the Palestinians have done over
    the years to provoke today's harsh treatment. From the 20's and 30's
    massacres of their Jewish neighbors, to the attacks in the War of Inde-
    pendence, to blowing up planes and proclaiming Israel's illegitimacy,
    the Palestinians have earned distrust and hatred of many Israeli Jews.
    From attempting to take over Jordan and later Lebanon, they have earned
    the mistrust and hatred of many of their Arab brethen. From terrorizing
    the citizens and property of the Western Democracies, training and
    helping all sorts of movements from Red Brigades to Japanese Red Army,
    the Palestinians have earned mistrust and hatred of many in the West.
    	I am not saying anyone deserves to be buried alive for these
    things, but it may provide some clues as to today's "harsh" treatment
    of the Intifada...
    
    DG

RE .13
   Again, you are stating facts not in the right prospective.

A. Remember who did start with the comparison between the Israelis and the
   Jordanians.

B. The Israelis backed the Jordanians in September 1970 (I think it was 
   September and not November) in order to avoid Syrian infiltration to Jordan
   and it was done in a response for an explicit American  request.

C. Yes, I have been in the refugee camps and almost no one in Israel denies
   that they are suffering and that they have the right to live there, but
   as it has mentioned before in this note the Palestinians have tendency
   to shoot themselves in the foot and Israel is always being blamed for that
   (we are only cousins not brothers).
   By the way, just to put things in proportion I think -correct me if I'm wrong
   - that there are more homeless in the U.S. then refugees in the West Bank
    and they are suffering too.

D. The comparison with the Boston police was intended to show you that under
   much more relaxed conditions some "security forces" in democratic countries 
   are seldom more brutal than the Israelis in a state of war.

    The bottom line to the whole question is that the Israelis are
    collecting taxes to pay for their occupation, not to spend the money
    on the roads or schools.
    The notion that the Israelis are doing anything good for the
    Palestinians is what the zionist supporters are trying to make the
    world believe. You are trying to cover for what is really happening.
    I am a palestinian American who cannot go back for even a visit,
    whos land has been completely taken by the Israeli government under
    the so called law of absent owner, I think you got my point, they
    stop the Palestinians from getting  back, and when they can't the
    government cofiscate their land because they are absent. You see,
    the Israelis possess all the powers and tactics to cover up for
    what they do to the Palestinians for 41 yrs. They are double taxing
    their exports to Europe and the Arab countries and getting over
    $878 M a year, they are taxing the income at %14 more than that
    of the Israelis, and they are triple taxing their imports to stop
    them from getting the tools and equipment to improve their
    manufacturing plants, their schools and their hospitals. Don't talk
    to me about what the Israelis did so the people of Biet Sahoor could
    have built the houses that they have, this was the efforts and the
    ability of the Palestinian ingenuity to fight all odds and still
    make it, the money that their sons and daughters send to them from
    abroad and from the gulf area is what is helping them build more
    schools , no thanks to the Israelis, and to the efforts of the
    international relief and aid agencies go the credit of supplying
    equipment and necessary medical needs that are helping in health
    care keeping the Arab hospitals open.

The following comes to you courtesy of Don Feinberg (who now ranks among the
occupying forces of Ra'anana.)


        I have a few statistics on the "oppression" of the Palestinian Arabs
        in Judea, Samaria, and Gaza:


         o  100,000 Palestinian Arabs go to work daily in Israel.  One third
            of  the  net  income in Judea, Samaria, and Gaza is derived from
            this work  in  Israel.   Industry,  agriculture,  commerce,  and
            export   are  not  only  fostered  and  improved  under  Israeli
            administration,  but  were  created  out  of  nothing  and   now
            represent an important factor in the economy of the Middle East.

         o  The state of education


                                                Before '67      Today

                Scholastic Institutions         897             1447
                Classes                         4,400           13,059
                Pupils                          174,406         475,345
                Universities                    none            6
                Technological Institutes        none            1
                Agricultural Schools            none            2
                Vocational Schools              none            26

            Since 1967, there has been an increase in school  attendance  of
            85%  in these territories.  Teachers number 8,000, of which only
            14 are Israeli.  The level  of  enrollment  and  exams  is  much
            higher than in Jordan.

         o  The sanitary conditions in Judea, Samaria, and Gaza before  1967
            were  characterized by sickness and mortality.  Since then, as a
            result of efforts by Israel, illnesses such as  malaria,  polio,
            trachoma, and typhus have been eradicated.

            Between 1968 and 1983, the population  increased  by  30%.   The
            infant  mortality  dropped by 60%, and life expectancy has grown
            from 42 to 63 years.

         o  Status of women

            Israel is the only country in the "Arab" world where women  have
            the  right  to  vote.   In  the  territories,  7,000  women  are
            teachers,  school  directors,  and  inspectors  for  the  school
            system.   More  than  55,000  are  doctors,  nurses  and medical
            personnel.  14,000 women  work  in  agriculture,  in  local  and
            Israeli  farms.   More than 4,000 women are working in local and
            Israeli factories in specialized jobs.  More than  50,000  women
            are  active in social assistance groups.  Of the wome working at
            other jobs, 5,000 are employed in Israel, where  they  are  paid
            the  same rates as Israelis for the same types of jobs, and have
            a right to all social benefits, such as  maternity  pay,  salary
            increases  for  tenure,  and paid annual vacations, according to
            the law of the land.

            Today, the illiteracy rate among women in  Judea,  Samaria,  and
^L
                                                                Page 2


            Gaza  is  around  30%,  compared  to  Syria  and  Egypt where it
            approaches 70%, and 90% in Saudi Arabia.

RE .16 .17

I think that  these two responses reflect somehow the difference in the basic  
approach between the Israelis/Jews and the Palestinian side.  while the first
tries to show that both people can live side by side interact and benefit from
each other, the second side has been trying during decades to prove
the opposite, blaming Israel and "Zionism"  for their ill fate. This idea,
of mutual beneficiary, was a corner stone of the Zionist ideology and I can
refer (who ever likes to) to some books that were written 100 years ago
(and not for the purpose of this discussion).

On the other hand, most of the people in the area are living and working
together ,they don't necessarily like each other, but should they ? (are
many whites like Blacks in the U.S.and vise versa) and many of them are
fighting together too , between 30-40% of the Border Police brigade are
Arab Druse and many Arab Bedowines are serving full service in the Israeli 
Army. 

To be in a permanent state of refugee and to blame Israel is sometimes not
an easy one but it probably serve the interest of some Palestinian and even
Arab leaders ,to be an American Palestinian refugee, for me, is not 
only a benefit but a real substantial privilege (Re.16).

    RE: 822.16

    There is a legitimate complaint here, although it is obscured by the
    economic discussion.  The real problem is not what the exact economic
    benefits or penalties are, but who exercises control.  As I have said
    elsewhere, if I were an Arab in the territories, I would probably feel
    pretty unhappy being subject to Israeli rule, particularly military
    rule.  Regardless of the economic benefits brought by the occupation, I
    would want to control my own destiny and I suspect I would resent
    people who expected me to be grateful for what they had done for me.

    On the other hand, as a Jew with family in Israel, I have both
    an emotional link with the land and concern for the safety of my kin.
    Some of my cousins have had to do reserve duty in the territories and
    they have not been happy about it.  They are also unhappy about what
    they see as the alternatives, since they are very much concerned about
    the long-term safety of their families.

    To Yousef, I would say that there are many of us who are not happy with
    the occupation, but we are not at all convinced that we have any good
    alternative.  Our history has shown that we cannot rely simply on words
    of goodwill.  I need help from you in figuring out how to resolve this
    issue.

    						Aaron

    ref. reply 17,18 and 19
    
    My mention of the hidden complaint in my reply # 16 was to get out
    in the open the facts and if you need figures I can supply you with
    referneces that give exact details on who is realy benefitting from
    the occupation. However, if the interest is realy in finding a just
    and peacefull solution to the Palestinian problem, that solution
    is only good if the Israelis can stop for a moment and realize that
    their claim to the land they have occupide in 67 can be exchanged
    for the peace they want. Without a Palestinian state where the
    Palestinian people can live and decide their own destiny, free from
    the harrassment of the Israeli soldiers or the Jordanian Intelligence
    or any none Palestinian entity. How could this be achieved you may
    ask, well a complete autonomy for the Westbank and Gaza for 1 to
    2 years followed by a program to return all the people who have
    been exiled from the area. A local government that will be freely
    elected by the Palestinians to choose whom they wish to govern them,
    that can negotiate a completely independent state at the end of
    the 2 years interim period. This state will be tied socially and
    economically to the state of Israel with a set agenda to work out
    the Palestinian refugees problem. Of course, this is not to say
    that this is the solution, but this can serve as a base to move
    the full peace process forward between the Israelis and all Arab
    states.

    	Well, I am encouraged, we are discussing solutions now. However,
    there are a couple of interesting point you bring up, Yosef. How can
    Israelis be assured that the Plestinian state in Judea and Samaria and
    Gaza will bring them peace? They don't believe now, PLO has proclaimed
    the two-stage solution for years, the shebab now say their goal is more
    than the Territories. The burden of earning the Israelis' trust is on
    Palestinians. What do you propose on this point?
    	The second one is "return all the people who have been exiled from
    the area". Do you mean return to the W. Bank and Israel proper? If yes,
    how likely do you think is Israel to allow millions of Palestinians
    to become Israeli citizens? We are talking real world now, and this is
    a nonstarter. If you mean the West Bank, do you think it could support
    4 million people economically? Or would it create additional pressure
    on Israel, because it's so poor and overpopulated, located right on the
    border, and full of people resentful of Israel in general?
    	How can such a state be tied socially and economically to Israel?
    what is a "set agenda to work out the Palestinian refugees problem"?
    Suppose Israel closed the border, because terrorists came and blew up
    a bus in Tel Aviv or Jerusalem. What do you think would happen to this
    state and its stability? As it is, Israel's shutting down the crossing
    points is portrayed as bad in the media, as if there were some inherent
    right of West Bank Palestinians to work in Israel. There isn't, you
    know, and there would be none if there were two different countries
    there...
    
    DG

Re: .20

I must comment that of all the pro-Palestinians, at least in this conference,
you seem the most "reasonable" (e.g, very little invective used). But because
of this very fact, I can't help but think that you are very lucky indeed not
to be in the Middle East now - you probably would have long ago joined 
hundreds of your countrymen slaughtered by their less "liberal" compatriots.
Forget about Israel trusting the promises of these madmen... how could *you*
ever feel safe under a regime of avowed murderers?

Jem

    RE: 822.20

   >                             This state will be tied socially and
   > economically to the state of Israel with a set agenda to work out
   > the Palestinian refugees problem.

    This is worth examining in more detail.  On the Palestinian side it
    addresses the desire to be self-governing, and on the Israeli side it
    offers a possible mechanism for achieving security.

    As you say, there has to be more to it than this, but let's look at
    this more closely.

    What are some of the mechanisms by which the two states might be tied?

                                        Aaron

Re. 20
I'm also happy that we are once again talking about some kind of peaceful
solution (I think that the previous one was on 813).

I also think that it is a little bit premature and unfair to attempt to lay out
any detailed proposal, the situation is too complicated for both sides and
there are few possibilities to solve it, for example: the Israeli Jordanian
confederation model, the Palestinian self rule model and some variations of
those two (some models have been implemented under the same or even more 
complicated circumstances in other places in the globe).

What we can talk about are the basic principals of any future peaceful 
solution.  I personally support the concept that currently it is better for
the two ethnic groups to be physically separated which means living side by side
and not within each other. It also requires (as I've tried to stress in 813.17)
that both side will have to give up dreams about returning to some Ancestors
lands.

What I'm really concerned about, and not fully understand, is why a big portion
of Palestinians are ultimately asking for an independent state?, It seems to me
that this approach is very risky for both sides and may be more for the
Palestinians than the Israelis (some of them was mentioned in 820.21,22 ).

Let try to be logical and not emotional about it. First of all I don't 
understand what is the difference between the Palestinians and most of the 
Jordanians. They have the same origin and religion, they speak the same 
language ,they carry Jordanian passports and they study according the
Jordanian curriculum, and so on, O.K., may be they don't like the king but
this is true for many Jordanian citizens .
(will it make sense for Boston or Massachusetts to detach itself from the
rest of the country). 

The other thing is what do they know about self rule and running democracy ?
What model are they going to adopt? there is only one in the middle 
east and this the Israeli, but they don't like it.  Will they become
the first Arab democracy in the world or we are talking about another
Lebanese model ? see what is going on now in the Gaza strip between
the fanatic Religious "Hamas" and the secular democratic PLO supporters.
Imagine what might happen when the Israeli forces will retreat, do you
think that you can switch overnight from a patriarchal tribal culture
to a western democracy?. O.K. you might say that it is better to be murdered
or oppressed by your Palestinians brother than being ruled by someone else 
but this is not what I mean a logical approach. 

Jacob

    
    Re: .22
    
    
    I also must comment that Mr. Yousef would have been deported from 
    West Bank by the Isreali government, or maybe blow up his house
    for his moderate views. My knowledge tells that the officials in
    Isreal encourage the views of the hardliners, like the "hamas".
    I wonder why. 
    
    Or maybe the officials in Israel prevent him form traveling to Israel
    becuase of his moderate views. Oh,, I see that are paying attention
    to his safety !!!
    
    

Re: 25
I must admit that I also think that Israel made major mistake in their
initial attitude towards the "hamas" and they did other major mistakes and
may be still they are doing mistakes . It is not an easy situation, 
the Israelis are amateur in this business of occupation and despite what many
might think they are not brought to do it, and most of them hate it.

I don't why Yuosuf can't go to back to Israel but if he was a security risk 
I don't believe that he would be able to live here.

    I will try to respond to the replies 21-26 and sum up the thoughts
    that some of you are bringing up.
    .The views that I portrayed in here as a possible solution are my
    own , and they are meant to give an example of how we can approach
    solving the problem.
    .For some of you who still call the Palestinian action terrorist
    that is your opinion, one's freedom fighter is another's terrorist
                            
    .Trying to portray the Palestinians as not knowing what democrasy
    is ,is again falls in the stereotyping campaign that the Israelis
    are always spreading about them, contrary to this , the Palestinians
    are just about the only true democrasy in the midle east and not
    Israel. And Iam not talking about a specific group here, I am talking
    about the Palestinian as an educated person who have a thirst for
    his freedom and his own state. Israel is as a democracy as south
    Africa is, democracy for one class of people only.
    . If some one is asking for his basic human rights to be given to
    him, and is denied that, one cannot help but to make his voice heard
    through out the world, for fourty two years the Palestinians are
    doing that and the world have ignored that because of the zionist
    tactics and lobby within the world major powers, the Palestinians
    have come to realize that may be the violence will make the world
    pay attention. The price of freedom is very high and the Palestinians
    have decided that they will pay it.
    . The state of Jordan is for the Jordanians, they are not willing
    to share it with the Palestinians, and even when the Palestinians
    tried to live there and have some freedom, they were attacked,
    imprisoned and suppressed. No confiderate state will be an alternative
    to the Palestinian state.
    .The basic solution that I mentioned in 822.20 was talking about
    a Palestinian state in the Westbank and Gaza, the people who are
    exiled to return to this state, the pre 48 refugee problem to be
    worked out based on compensation and resettlement and give those
    who wish to resettle in the Palestinian state the right to choose
    so. If Israel can support 4 million people, the new Palestinian
    state can support 3-4 millions.
    . The social ties between this state and Israel will be in the form
    controlled freedom of movement of civilians, workers and transportation
    . The two states will have to guarantee each other sicurity and
    peaceful existance and this will also have to be assured to both
    states by the nieghbouring Arab countries and the wold powers.
    .The Arab countries will help repatriate the Palestinians and support
    economically the new state. This also have to be economically supported
    by the US and Europe.
    .As to my safety, I don't think I have to worry about that from
    any Palestinian, the majority of us are calling for this to happen.
    . As to my travel restrictions to the Westbank and that of my wife,
    I would like to ask that question to the Israelis, I have never
    done anything to cause that to happen, niether my wife,yet she was
    stopped from crossing the bridge to visit her parents in 87 and
    was returned on the next plane from the airport in June 89 with
    no reason given on both cases, dispite the fact that we are US citizens
    .I still believe that if the Israelis put aside the dream of having
    to create the pure jewish state that stretches from the Nile to
    the Euphrates and settle within a defined boarder and can guarantee
    the Arabs that , there will be peace in the middle east.

Re: .27

>    .For some of you who still call the Palestinian action terrorist
>    that is your opinion, one's freedom fighter is another's terrorist

As soon as you make an absurd propoganda statement such as this, you lose
all hope for mutual understanding. If you don't realize that there is no
justification on Earth for blowing civilians up in the sky, machine-gunning
passengers in airline terminals, throwing school children out of windows,
throwing busses off cliffs... there is no basis whatsoever for discussion.

>    . The state of Jordan is for the Jordanians,

A majority of whom are "Palestinian".

>    they are not willing
>    to share it with the Palestinians, and even when the Palestinians
>    tried to live there and have some freedom, they were attacked,
>    imprisoned and suppressed.

This complaint should be addressed to the Jordanians. They were in 
possession of Judea & Samaria before 1967, and still control 76% of
British Mandate Palestine. A little curious why none of these "Palestinian"
issues were brought up then. 


Jem

re .27:

>    .Trying to portray the Palestinians as not knowing what democrasy
>    is ,is again falls in the stereotyping campaign that the Israelis
>    are always spreading about them

    I agree that portraying Arabs as ignorant of democracy is stereotyping,
    but what about the response?

>    Israel is as a democracy as south Africa is, democracy for one class
>    of people only.

    Israeli Arabs can vote.  There are Arabs in the Knesset.  Please
    explain how this makes Israel like South Africa.

>    .I still believe that if the Israelis put aside the dream of having
>    to create the pure jewish state that stretches from the Nile to
>    the Euphrates and settle within a defined boarder and can guarantee
>    the Arabs that , there will be peace in the middle east.

    Speaking of stereotyping... I've never *heard of* an Israeli that
    has this dream.

          Re:  .28



          What is it that make some Israeli officials  as  heroes  and  not

          terrorist ?



          Ex-prime minister of Israel  Begin  was  a  leader  of  the  most

          radical  terrorist  group in Palestine.  I don't recall the exact

          year when he was responsible for blowing up a hotel in  Jerusalem

          or  how  many  died.   In fact he was a WANTED MAN by the British

          government/police.



          The current prime  minister,  Shamir,  wasn't  he  a  head  of  a

          military  gang  group prior to 1948 in Palestine.  What was their

          objectives  ?   murdering,  blowing   and   chasing   Palestinian

          civilians and British.



          How do the Israelis portray these individuals, as heroes !



          Lets agree on one thing, killing any civilian is a terrorist act,

          whether  it's  done by Israeli plane using cluster bombs, or by a

          Palestinian using a Molotov.

    Re: .30
    
    You should check your facts alittle more closely before you make such
    accusations. A wing of the King David hotel was blown up by Begin's
    IZ"L group only *after* repeated warnings, which were ignored by the
    British. There is *no* connection between an act such as this and
    the cold-blooded, wanton butchering of civilians that the TERRORIST
    Palestinians engage in routinely.
    
    Jem

my reply in 822_33 was in a process of being written into the note file for
the last 12 hours so I'm submitting an enhanced version again.

Re 30-31

In July 1946 the "Irgun" - which was considered in those days as an extremist
Jewish military organization and was headed by Begin- blew up the southern
section of King David hotel in Jerusalem.  This section was used as an
headquarters of the British military forces and civilian administration. 
A warning was submitted in advance but the British first secretary who
was in command refused to evacuate the building. 80 people were killed 
(among them 17 Jews) and 40 were injured.
The same "terrorist' Begin signed 32 years later the Camp David peace treaty
with the "late" Anuar Saadat.

Talking about Arab/Palestinian democratic tradition and terrorism ,see what
have happened to brave Arab leaders who dared to negotiate any peace agreement
with Israel.
The late king Abdaala (king Hussain's grandfather) was murdered in July 1951
by a Palestinian, Saadat Himself was murdered in 1981 by fanatic
Islamic group (who was encouraged by Palestinians leaders calling Saadat a
traitor), Bashier Joumail who was the Lebanese president was murdered 
in 1983 probably by Syrian or Palestinian elements (and I would like to
just to mention Senator Bob Kannedy who was murdered in 1968 by a Palestinian
probably because of the similar causes - supporting Israel).  I just wonder
who will be the next victim and I'm not joking about it, one of the major
obstacle for peace in the Palestinian/Arab side is the fear of moderate and
brave leaders (in all levels) who became an immediate target for assassination 
whenever they express any desire for reasonable peace solution.
I don't recall the names and numbers but some of the local moderate
Palestinians leaders in the west bank has been assassinated during the last
years being accused by the "Shabab" or other groups as being "collaborates"
and "traitors" - a Palestinians terms for moderate and  rational leaders.

As for the civilian Palestinian causalities from airplane raids Nass, 
first of all you should know that no one in Israel happy about it,
but this is again part of the cruel behavior of the Palestinain terrorist 
(or liberation fighters as you probably want to call them) towards their
own people. I allude to the fact that they are locating their headquarters
within crowded civilian concentrations (sometime nearby or attached to
 hospitals) or sending and inciting young children to demonstrate
and throw rocks on Israeli soldiers and then it looks very convinced to tell
the world the "Israelis are killing women and children and we have the right
to do it also".

    RE: .31, terrorism is terrorism, regardless of who perpetrated it!
    Though the Irgun attack wasn't a "surprise", it was still as wrong.
    
    Eric

Re: mine, .32
>I just wonder who will be the next victim.....

The following was reported in the Boston Globe, Nov 12,89 (and believe me that
I don't have connection with the Globe or with Abu Musa):

>>start quotation
ARAFAT ACCUSED OF HIGH TREASON:
Abu Musa, leader of a breakaway Palestinian group opposed to the aims of the
Palestine Liberation Organization's chairman, Yasser Arafat, said yesterday
his group would try Arafat for treason.

"Arafat committed high treason when he recognized the Israeli enemy and 
abandoned the revolution's principles," Musa told reporters. "He will be 
invited to defend himself or send anyone to defend him - (does anyone volunteer?
some of this note participants have a lot of expertise , J.G.).
If he does not do so he will be tried in absentia. The movement would be 
committed to implement the verdict by all possible means." Other group 
members said the usual sentence for treason is death. Abu Musa said his group
, known since its Syrian-backed rebellion against.  Arafat's leadership in 
1983 as Fatah Uprising, would in the future call himself simply "Fatah".
>>end quotation

P.S.  I will be away from my desk during this next week, so if anyone will
bother himself to respond don't expect me to reply.

        Jacob

    In response to notes 29-34
    First of all, my mention " one's freedom fighter is another's
    terrorist" was to tell those who keep labeling the uprising and
    the Palestinians as terrorists, that they were the invintors of
    terrorism. The first massacre committed against civilians was Der
    Yasin where Irgun butchered 251 children, women and old men in 48
    and displayed the bodies in a very inhumain way to terrorise the
    other villigers to flee the country.' Refer to Micheal lilenthal
    Zionist Connection II'. The history has more than documented Begin
    as the invintor of the LETTER BOMB. Sharon in his infamouse invasion
    of Lebanon has directed the Lebanees Phalanges to carry out the
    massacres of Subra and Shatella with him providing the cover up
    and protection to his murderer gangs, siting that in 48 after Der
    Yasin massacre the Palestinians fled the country, may be if Subra
    and Shatella news will spread, the Palestinians will flee Lebanon
    in the same way. Sharon was convected by his own collaporators.
    Downing a Lybians Civilian airplane and killing all 198 passengers
    on board was also justified by the Israelis as just act, but any
    other it would be a horrific terrorist act.
    The Israeli soldiers holding an 11 years old child and smashing
    his arm on a rock was wittnessed by millions all over the world
    (by the way since then, Israel has clapped down on any news coverage
    so the world will not see the ugly picture of horror as it is committed
    by them ) is again justified. The raid on a children school in Egypt
    in 72 and the death of 180 children may be is not a terrorist act.
    The illigal imprisonment of more than 35,000 Palestinian youths
    and the conditions they are under in the concentration camps where
    they are imprisoned is worse than any body can describe, and the
    list goes on and on. So, may be now we should put all these labeling
    aside and start talking about a solution, or is it every time a
    serious discussion is started to concentrate on the solution, the
    Jews and Israelis start creating diversions to avoid it. 

    	Re .35 What a crock of one-sided shit. Propaganda mixed with
    distortions and demagoguery thrown in for propery seasoning. And just
    as I was getting my hopes up for a discussion of solutions in a
    civilized manner :-( :-(
    	My info says that the Great Russian Aliya has begun as of three
    weeks ago. It's not in the papers yet, but people are coming at the
    rate of over 100 per day, and the flow is accelerating. If it's true,
    the Israeli Government will soon have different priorities on its plate
    and the Palestinian leadership will rue the day PLO stonewalled W. Bank
    elections...
    
    DG

    Folks,
    
    not that I think It'll matter you much, but my standards are that I
    better stay out of polemical, sloganistic, uncooperative discussions.
    
    Sounds like indoctrination reaches people even in the US.
    
    Deeply boredly yours,
    
    Chris
    
    
    P.S.: Yousef: If I ever feel the need to test my indoctrination skills
    on somebody, I hope you don't mind me contacting you... What a hopeless
    situation. Sinister, really sinister...

>    	Re .35 What a crock of one-sided shit. Propaganda mixed with
>    distortions and demagoguery thrown in for propery seasoning. And just
>    as I was getting my hopes up for a discussion of solutions in a
>    civilized manner :-( :-(
 
                 I know TRUTH HURTS....        


>   	My info says that the Great Russian Aliya has begun as of three
>    weeks ago. It's not in the papers yet, but people are coming at the
>    rate of over 100 per day, and the flow is accelerating. If it's true,
>    the Israeli Government will soon have different priorities on its plate
>    and the Palestinian leadership will rue the day PLO stonewalled W. Bank
>    elections...

     So, more Jews are immigrating from Russia to Israel.

     The following is what I call real TERRORISM....

     How much of a Palestinian land are you  going to CONFISCATE AND 
     STEAL to build homes and settlements to absorb all these people. 
     Or maybe how many Palestinian children are going to die in the 
     "uprising" to make room for the new immigrants.
     
     Or maybe how many Palestinians are going to be deported from their
     own home land to make room for the new immigrants. Or how many more
     Palestinians are you going to through in Israeli persons.

     Justice seem to have no place. 

         
     
     
    

    	If your TRUTH consists of propaganda, distortions and demagoguery,
    it HURTS. Of course it hurts, seeing that rational, factual discourse
    has so little chance when one side internalizes the lies so much.
    	So, real TERRORISM now includes land confiscation and deportations?
    Perhaps we need a new word for terrorism then, one that denotes mainly
    random car bombings, and bus seizures, and airplane crashes and hostage
    taking. Then, we can get back to the issues instead of language games.
    	Finally, just because you put CONFISCATE and STEAL in caps, doesn't
    make it any more believeable. It's still a lie.
    	Just because you claim that Intifada's victims and deportations are
    a way of "making room", doesn't make it true. What with a few dozen
    deported over the years, and all the rioters dead in the last couple of
    years, it's a strange way to "make room' for the Aliyah of hundreds of
    thousands, most of whom have no intention of living beyond Maaleh
    Adumim or so.
    
    DG

Shalom DG,

>>    	Finally, just because you put CONFISCATE and STEAL in caps, doesn't
>>      make it any more believeable. It's still a lie.

   What are you saying then,  That the Isreali Government is not
   confiscating and/or stealing our land.

   You tell us to be more clear and you make such a statement.

   DG, how about coming to life.

Shukran,
-Sultan
    

    Being Irish-American I am not naive to internal conflict in one's
    homeland.  
    
    I have a serious question regarding America's role in the United
    Nations, and the result of votes regarding Israel which I read regularly 
    in the newspaper (the results of these votes never appear on news programs 
    which is where most Americans get their information.  Therefore, the
    vast majority of Americans are not even aware of this situation).
    
    Serious question:
    
    Why is it that whenever a vote regarding Israel (the most recent being
    the Palestinian tax situation I believe) comes before the United Nations, 
    particularly the U.N. Security Council, the result of the vote is almost 
    always unanimous except for one dissenting country?  The dissenting country
    of course being the U.S.  Do we (the U.S.) know what is best for those in 
    the Middle East, as some in our country say we do about the current mess 
    in Central America, or are there underlying reasons?
    
    Please no flames.  This has been bothering me for some time.
    
    					Steve

    	Saalam, Sultan.
    I am, in fact, saying that the Israeli Government is not
    confiscating, and most definitely not stealing any land. I thought it
    was a clear statement I made.
    	Not one case exists of land with documented deed being taken by
    eminent domain. Land with no papers to prove ownership - yes. Land,
    legally bought by the early settlers and the Jewish Agency, then
    confiscated by local Arabs (post 1948) - yes. But deeded, private land?
    Prove but one case where a settlement is/was built on such property.
    I can believe roads, or even military bases - that's done by eminent
    domain in every country in the world anyway. Not settlements.
    
    DG

    Suppose an Arab who owns property in the Old City gets a very lucrative
    offer for it from a Jew.  The Arab knows that if he sells his property
    to a Jew, the PLO will kill him.  If the Jew and the Arab agree to make
    it look like the Arab was forced out, both get what they want.  The Jew
    gets the property.  The Arab gets the money, and he can claim that he
    didn't sell his property, it was stolen from him, so the PLO will leave
    him alone -- in fact, he'll become a kind of martyr.

    Of course, this is purely hypothetical.

    As a Jew, I am embarassed by foolishness like this, (.42) which serves to
    discredit our legitemate right to share the Middle East: 
    
>    	Not one case exists of land with documented deed being taken by
>    eminent domain. Land with no papers to prove ownership - yes. Land,
>    legally bought by the early settlers and the Jewish Agency, then
>    confiscated by local Arabs (post 1948) - yes. But deeded, private land?
    
    "Deeded, private land" refers to English land tenure, which is the
    chain of title traced to the kings of England.  We use it in much of
    the U.S., except for some Spanish tenure, etc.  In the "Palestine"
    area, the Ottomans weren't trading land according to patents tracing to
    English kings, or for that matter Turkish ones.  During the British
    rule, of course, English title was traded, but the Arabs didn't get
    much of it.  Much land was "public", but that was the norm for a lot of
    what in America or England would be privately-owned.
    
    The Troubles in Israel are largely a real estate dispute.  As long as
    we act as if English land tenure were all that mattered, of course the
    Arab residents won't be on a fair footing!
          q.v. "lev bronstein"

>    I am, in fact, saying that the Israeli Government is not

>    confiscating, and most definitely not stealing any land. I thought it

>    was a clear statement I made.

>       Not one case exists of land with documented deed being taken by

>    eminent domain. Land with no papers to prove ownership - yes. Land,

>    legally bought by the early settlers and the Jewish Agency, then

>    confiscated by local Arabs (post 1948) - yes. But deeded, private land?

>    Prove but one case where a settlement is/was built on such property.

>    I can believe roads, or even military bases - that's done by eminent

>    domain in every country in the world anyway. Not settlements.


                                                                Page 2





     This is a classic example  of  how  the  Israeli  Government

     spreads  propaganda  about  the  crimes  that  are committed

     against the Palestinian people.  But alas, who is to listen,

     the  most  powerful  country in the world U.S.A can veto any

     U.N resolution if it didn't serve the Israeli interests.



     Anyway, back to the land confiscation.  Is it  a  coincident

     that most land that has no legal papers of possession so far

     is land surrounds most West bank cities.   As  a  matter  of

     fact,  the  settlements in West Bank are forming ring-shapes

     around major Palestinian cities.



     Do you know that there is a day in Israel called  Land  Day,

     where  Palestinians  go on strike every year to comment land

     confiscation.  Do you think Palestinians enjoy getting  shot

     every year at that day.



     Do you know about the law of absent owner.   Does  this  low

     apply  to  the  Israelis.   They  make it so difficult for a

     Palestinian to go home, when can't, the government take  his

     land  away, while any Jewish can travel to Israel and become

     an Israeli citizen.



     Who is the judge anyway to decide whether the land has legal

     papers  or  not  ?   The military government court headed by

     Israelis.



     You see, the Israeli government  has  all  the  power,  they

     twist  and  change all the rules and regulations to suit and

     serve their interests.  And this has been practiced too much

     by the Israeli government.

Has anyone else noticed a change in Yousef's tone since the following was
noted in .22?

>I can't help but think that you are very lucky indeed not
>to be in the Middle East now - you probably would have long ago joined 
>hundreds of your countrymen slaughtered by their less "liberal" compatriots.
>Forget about Israel trusting the promises of these madmen... how could *you*
>ever feel safe under a regime of avowed murderers?

For instance, he went into his little fairy tale in .35, the tone somewhat
less "moderate" than previous notes. 

I guess he was being a little less than candid in .27 in proclaiming:

>    .As to my safety, I don't think I have to worry about that from
>    any Palestinian  

No, you have nothing to fear as long as you reprint fantasy-laden propoganda
from Arabic comic books.


Jem

    	Actually, I am sure there is quite a lot of legally unowned land
    in the West Bank. I am sure only a portion of it gets used for
    settlements. So what? I am sure the settlements are built with security
    planning from the start. So what? Given the history of endless wars
    that the Arab states wage(d) on Israel, plus the history of personal
    harrasment and attacks by the West Bank Palestinians on the settlers,
    that's to be expected. So what? Would you not put grates on your
    windows, and avoid the first floor in a high-crime area in Boston?
    You'd be a fool not to.
    	Land Day - the day of the riots. Anyone has a history book handy,
    as to what incident exactly is commemorated?
    	Finally, mr. Goldstein, why are you "embarrassed as a Jew"? Do
    you ffel responsible for my writings? Please don't trouble yourself so.
    I believe that the Ottomans in fact did keep the land records, just as
    the English did. Reasons for not registering the were: taxt avoidance,
    squatters' rights (if any), etc. So what? How do you ever buy and sell
    land in a modern society, if you drop validity for all such papers? How
    would a West Bank villager ever sell any land to another one? It's
    chaos. Besides, if you really had a free market over there, an Arab
    would sell land to a Jew for the right amount. However, if they refuse,
    you think that's OK? At the very least, it's like you not selling your
    house to a minority candidate simply because you don't want them moving
    into the neighborhood. Repugnant, illegal, immoral, requires corrective
    action in the USA. How about in Israel? Are you implying that kind of
    morality is not applicable there, because of tribal hatreds? Sounds
    mighty condescending to me.
    
    DG

    Much to the contrary, it is more condescending to look for recorded
    land tenure than to notice the social reality:  NOBODY owns any land
    over there without dispute!  He who owns the Registry owns the land.
    
    The peasant populations of many countries subsists on untitled land.
    The United States was created when the English King superimposed his
    tenure over the collective (unwritten) ownership of the nations that
    already occupied the continent (such as the CHerokee, Algonquian,
    etc.).
    
    Clearly, it was not the norm for Palestinian peasants to hold royal
    tenure to land they grazed their sheep on, raised crops on, etc.  (HOw
    does a nomadic shepherd own land?)  THe bourgeosie held tenure.
    
    The funny thing about .0 is that it's the bourgeoisie that's getting
    stepped on now.

    To GD and those who replied to my reply # 822.35
    Again I was trying to draw a parallelism between one sides righteous
    actions and others terrorist actions. Self defense, sheer frostration,
    and disparate attempts to defend one's homeland and rights are the
    thing that drove the Palestinians to protest the Balfour declaration
    of the 1917, and to the demonstrations and strikes that followed
    the 1922 and the 1927 and the 1929 all the way up to the 1936 world
    famous national strike, and all the way to the day of mass deportation
    and expulsion of millions of Palestinians from thei homeland. Gd
    mention the Arab states wars against the state of Israel..., Please
    go and educate your self with some truth before you start spreading
    lies in a form of an outraged replies-covering the truth that hurts-
    with sheer fabrications and mixing subjects. The UN has recorded
    that all the wars that brokeout between the Arabs and Israel, Israel
    was the state that started the war..the Jewish historian Mikeal
    Lilenthal has documented these facts in his work and research, please
    refer to other writing by Jewish writers (Chumski and Wagner ) and
    once in your life for a change read unbiased jewish opinion about
    what really happened . Facts do hurt sometime but if you really
    wants to talk the way you reply, to an invitation to start a dialogue
    between people who are serious about working towards creating an
    understanding to achieve peace for both Palestinians and Israelis
    then I think I have no need to waste my time . By the way I have
    not changed my ways to reply or discuss issues and still say that
    I have nothing to fear from anybody, may be the only thing that
    I might get hurt from is from your type of people and JDL who have
    tried to silence those who have dared to speak their minds in the
    US.
    

    Re: -1
    
    Huh,
    
>>                                                     The UN has recorded
>>    that all the wars that brokeout between the Arabs and Israel, Israel
>>    was the state that started the war
    
    O.K. -- I'm not old enough to remember 1948, but I do remember the
    build up to 67 and definetly 1973. The Yom Kippur war consisted of a
    surprise attact, or has someone forgotten that. I presume according to
    some people Israel was guilty of starting the war, by defending itself
    :-) :-) 
    
    BTW, I thought both you and Sid Gordon in an earlier note agreed that
    quoting the U.N. to prove a point was rather pointless.
     
>>                                     ..the Jewish historian Mikeal
>>  Lilenthal has documented these facts in his work and research, please
>>  refer to other writing by Jewish writers (Chumski and Wagner ) and once
    	
    I am not acquainted with this statement. I would genuinly like to see
    the reference to it. 
    
    
    I rather feel that whatever relevant point you do make are rather
    destroyed by some of the statement which require one to suspend
    disbelief completely.
    
    

    RE: <<< Note 822.45 by SKIMAN::NASS >>>  -< Land Day >-
    
>>     Do you know that there is a day in Israel called  Land  Day,

>>     where  Palestinians  go on strike every year to comment land

>>     confiscation.  Do you think Palestinians enjoy getting  shot

>>     every year at that day.

    
    Do you know what Land Day comemerates ??
    
    In 1977 the government, using due course, took land in the Galilee area
    for, what was to have been, new towns that were about to be built. It
    is probably not well known to you, that the Interior Ministry took more
    land owned by Israeli Jews than Israeli Arabs. There was a program
    about it on Israel radio two weeks ago, were one of the Israeli Jews
    complained that the land that was taken from him in 1977 in the Mt
    Canaan area, was still not being used. 
    
    BTW : Galilee in in pre-67 borders.

As I read through the replies in this note, I am saddened by the futility of 
the non-dialogue that occurs.  In this and in similar notes, what happens: 
each side levels its charges and dismisses those of the other.  Horrors 
are recounted; recriminations made.  And beyond the ken of our notes file -- 
in the UN, in public forums -- the pattern is repeated:  people talk past
each other, finding no common ground, and each side remains entrenched.

These repetitious, futile litanies of the Middle East stand in sharp contrast 
these days to events in Eastern Europe.   In bold and swift strokes, decades
worth of entrenchments -- of ideology, of economics, of borders are swept 
aside.  Old anatgonisms are undermined as political leaders and average 
citizens take courageous steps, and in so doing redefine long standing
quarrels and oppositions,

And courage is what seems sorely lacking in the Middle East.  Not the 
courage to fight and die -- there's all too much of that.  Rather what is
needed is the courage Sadat displayed and to which Israel responded  -- the 
courage to put old animosities aside and offer new possibilities.  Only
through such an initiative -- bold, unambiguous, & symbolic -- can some form 
of reconcilitation, acceptance, and peace grow.

We've seen such initiatives come from the unlikeliest places on the globe these 
days.  Perhaps, the Mid-East may follow suit.  Without one side courageously
reaching out to the other, the Mid-East will remain stuck at best in a 
contest in which neither side can accept the legitimacy of the other's claims.


Gene

    
    	Re:52
    
    
    	   	Well Said!
    
    		Thomas Friedman's book 'From Beirut to Jerusalem', one
    	of the best books on the subject that I have read, pretty much
    	states the premise. Courageous people on both sides with the power
        to influence, will have to come foward. I also feel that the events
    	in Eastern Europe will have a profound effect on world opinion
    	regarding the middle east. There will be much more pressure put to
    	both sides from now on and less acceptance of foot dragging and
        game playing. 
    
    David
    	
    		

    >The UN has recorded that all the wars that brokeout between the Arabs
    >and Israel, Israel was the state that started the war..
    
    I am neither a Jew nor an Arab. therefore, I think I'm allowed to tell
    you that your statement is far off, and in direct conflict with, any
    recorded piece of journalistic documentation. When were you born? A lot
    of the newspapers in Germany and Austria, at that time, and often in
    these times, definitely cannot be counted amongst Israel's closest
    friends. But even they had a different story than yours to tell.
    Remember who asked the UN forces to leave the Israel-Egypt border in
    Sinai? You've probably been told that it was Theodor Herzl... Oh, my...
    
    Increduly yours,
    
    Chris

RE: 822.52

    I confess that I share Gene's view.  It seems that every time we begin
    to have a discussion, it quickly deteriorates into a contest to see who
    can assign the greatest amount of blame to the other side.  That serves
    only to move things away from any rational dialogue about solutions.

    <FLAME ON>

    If the Jewish contributers to this conference refuse to recognize that
    the Arab population of the occupied territories have very legitimate
    grievances, and that Israel has done some pretty awful things to them,

    and

    if the Arab contributors to this conference refuse to recognize that
    the Jews of Israel have been the victims of some vicious terrorist
    attacks, that there is a distinction between taking land and killing
    people, and that Israel is not the source of all the problems,

    I see no hope of ever talking to one another about possible solutions.

    <FLAME SET-TO-LOW>

    If there is anyone out there who would like to attempt a dialogue
    (multilogue?), who would welcome an opportunity to talk with, rather
    than at, each other about the Middle East, please send me mail.

    					Aaron

    	I must admit, I am puzzled. I think we all agree that both sides in
    the Israeli-Palestinian conflict have legitimate grievances. In fact,
    the problem may be logically unsolvable. Land dispute appears to at the
    bottom of it all - the Palestinians have lost much of their land, and
    will not abide by it, while the Israelis will not be pushed off their
    land. An irresistible force meeting an immovable object - possibly.
    To the Palestinians, Israel appears to be the aggressor, since the
    Jewish immigration started the conflict, and Israel has the upper hand
    right now. To the Israelis, the Palestinians and other Arabs appear to
    be the aggressors, since they have instigated the vast majority of the
    violence since about mid-20's through today, and since the potential is
    always there for the hostile Arab world to overwhelm Israel militarily,
    politically and even economically.
    	Both sides have grievances - does not mean neither one has legitimate
    beef. To refuse to hear both is short-sided, even if the mutual 
    incrimination sessions are tiring and bothersome. It's like you would 
    punish both a school bully and his victim, because you don't have time or
    energy to find out who's at fault - unfair. If you happen to be the brother
    of the victim - it's just plain stupid.
    
    However, it may not be an appopriate forum for such frank discussions,
    and that's another matter altogether...
    
    DG

RE: 822.56

    My flame was directed at those on both sides who are unwilling to admit
    that the other side has any legitimate grievance.   If I gave the
    impression that I was saying "a pox on both your houses," then I failed
    to convey what I intended.

    What bothers me is not dealing with hard questions or strong
    differences in opinion or belief--I believe that I have demonstrated
    elsewhere in this conference a willingness to engage in debate--but the
    way in which contributors to these notes fail to debate.

    The point is that I do want to discuss and debate the issues, but I
    have reluctantly concluded that any attempt to do this in this
    conference is doomed to failure--every attempt to do so has
    deteriorated into a set of opposing monologues.

    What I am trying to do is find another kind of forum in which those who
    are interested can discuss the Middle East situation in a reasonably
    intelligent way.  There are a lot of difficult questions for which
    there may be no answers; that does not mean they should not be
    asked, but when we ask them we should be willing to listen to the
    answers.

    Again, I invite anyone who would like to join me in this endeavor to
    send me mail.

                                        Aaron

    < Note 822.56 by TALLIS::GOYKHMAN "Nostalgia ain't what it used to be" >
                 -< Throwing the baby out with the bath water >-


        
>>    	Both sides have grievances - does not mean neither one has legitimate
>>    beef. To refuse to hear both is short-sided, even if the mutual 
>>    incrimination sessions are tiring and bothersome. It's like you would 
>>    punish both a school bully and his victim, because you don't have time or
>>    energy to find out who's at fault - unfair. If you happen to be the brother
>>    of the victim - it's just plain stupid.
  
    It is not a matter of refusing to hear both sides -- it is the fact
    that many years of hearing both sides, hasn't got anyone closer
    to a solution.
    
    And the analogy to a school bully assumes that there is some external,
    agnecy -- like a schol principal -- that can objectively "hear" the
    case, that has the legitimacy to assign blame, and that has the power
    to dole out punishment.   
    
    That's obviously not the situation.  Instead, it's a situation in
    which the most basic of assumptions (e.g., who was there first,
    who started the hostilities, etc.) and realities are disputed by
    the opposing sides.    	
    
    >>I must admit, I am puzzled. I think we all agree that both sides in
    >>the Israeli-Palestinian conflict have legitimate grievances. In fact,
    >>the problem may be logically unsolvable. Land dispute appears to at the
    >>bottom of it all - the Palestinians have lost much of their land, and
    >>will not abide by it, while the Israelis will not be pushed off their
    >>land. An irresistible force meeting an immovable object - possibly.
    >>To the Palestinians, Israel appears to be the aggressor, since the
    >>Jewish immigration started the conflict, and Israel has the upper hand
    >>right now. To the Israelis, the Palestinians and other Arabs appear to
    >>be the aggressors, since they have instigated the vast majority of the
    >>violence since about mid-20's through today, and since the potential is
    >>always there for the hostile Arab world to overwhelm Israel militarily,
    >>politically and even economically.
      
    This analysis, to me, is a cogent representation of why debates
    that focus on assigning blame are useless.  Each side has its claims;
    each its suffering.  To focus on these is to stay mired in a situation
    that seems to worsen over time, not improve.  
    
    I can't pretend to have a magical solution, just a strong belief
    that the tack which has and continues to be taken -- the "you started
    it"/"but look what you did" tack -- offers no way out.
    
    
    Gene