Conference taveng::bagels

Frankly, I could give a shit what John Paul has to say about the
West Bank.

This past summer, even before the situation with the convent in
Auschwitz, many liberal Catholics were dismayed by some of the Pope's
pronouncements, vis-a-vis, his not understanding Jews' non-acceptance
of the divinity of Jesus.

These Catholics were quoted as saying that JP's statements could help
exacerbate the worldwide increase in anti-Semitic acts, and that whatever 
ecumenism had occured between Jews and Catholics since Vatican II could be 
destroyed.

And just where was the Vatican with its pronouncements of the "rights of
people" during the Nazi genoicide against the Jews?

It's too bad that the moral high ground taken by the RC Church is subject
to the vagaries of politics, "old issues" (about two thousand years' worth),
and the whims, prejudices and personalities of all-too-fallible men.

  Alan
                              

    The pope is the head of a country that doesn't recognize the state of
    Israel.  He apparently also supports the "legitimate rights of the
    Palestinians" to have their own state.  He's already half of the way
    for qualifying for Arab League membership [maybe if they find oil under
    the Sistine Chapel...]
    
    He has no authority, political or moral, over any of the people in the
    region other than the extremely small number of Roman church members in
    Israel and Lebanon.  He does, however, have much influence (through the
    press) in the West, where it may not be clear that he is hurting rather
    than helping the cause of peace.

    Hmm, that's the kind of reply I was going to write, but didn't for
    anxiety of getting into a flaming match with others.
    
    The church's interest is strictly political, they couldn't give a %&^#
    about the Palestinians.  Please recall their longstanding demand for
    "internationalizing" Jerusalem read:we want control.
    
    --David

                       <<< Note 813.1 by FDCV01::ROSS >>>
>                          -< The Pope Speaks - BFD!! >-

>Frankly, I could give a shit what John Paul has to say about the
>West Bank.
    
    Now that's a real classy way to display your emotions in a public
    forum!

Re: .4
    
>> Frankly, I could give a shit what John Paul has to say about the
>> West Bank.
    
   > Now that's a real classy way to display your emotions in a public
   > forum!
    
   Thanks. I've been attending an intensive class at Ms. Manners School
   of Charm and Diplomacy.
    
   Looks like my hard work has paid off.
    
     Alan

    Re .4:
    
    Is it written somewhere that the writer of .1 should somehow be
    impressed by the Pope?
    
    Mark

I've been sitting here the last half hour or so, thinking about why 
a response such as that in .4 annoys me so much.

I guess the basic reason is that .4 - like some others that have been
placed in this Conference - comes across *to me* as: "Shhhshh, Alan, be
nice, don't be nasty, dont't make waves, ..........don't offend the 'goyim'".

Because if we don't offend *them*, then maybe they won't hate us, they won't 
gas us, they won't try to force us to take their religion, they won't paint
swastikas on our houses or cars, they won't call us "dirty Kikes" or "Hebes",
they won't beat us up on the way to Hebrew School, they'll let us live 
unharassed...........

We Jews have been bowing and scraping to others for a long, long time, trying
to placate *them*, hoping they'll leave us alone - if only we're "nice".

And it hasn't worked.

And I'm tired of kissing peoples' asses, hoping - someday - just maybe it
still *might* work.  

I'm tired of being the only one that has to be nice.

Let *them* be nice to us, for a change.

  Alan

    re: .7
    
    I won't contradict Alan's feelings any, but I'd like to redirect the
    discussion to the track I was on, namely there are political, and ONLY
    political motivations for the pope to be "concerned" about the
    Palestinians.
    
    --David

    According to the Pope the Palestinians have a legitimate right to
    be there.  Is this true or not?   If so, then why?  And if not, then
    why not?   Do the Jews have the right to be there?  See questions
    above.
    
    Forget the politics for the moment and talk about rights (human
    rights).
    
    Roger
    

    Re .9:
    
    The problem might be that the Pope is not only a head of state but
    also the head of large branch of the Christian church.
    
    Now it's bad enough when the head of state of one country goes poking his
    nose into the internal affairs of another (I know...we could probably
    argue forever about whether the status of the Palestinians is really
    related to Israeli internal affairs) but quite another when that
    head of state happens to represent an institution whose history
    is replete with examples of the sanctioning of Jewish persecutions.
    
    Not to mention the fact that the Vatican seems more concerned about
    people who many Israelis believe constitute a threat to Israel's
    security than it does with diplomatically recognizing Israel.
    
    All in all, the Pope hasn't been demonstrating what you would call
    adroit diplomacy on this issue, to put it in more polite terms than
    some people have expressed so far.
    
    Mark

    Re: FDCV01::ROSS
    
    My pointing out the vulgarity of your statements concerning the Pope,
    i.e.,
.1>                          -< The Pope Speaks - BFD!! >-

.1>Frankly, I could give a shit what John Paul has to say about the
.1>West Bank.
    
    has absolutely nothing to do with harassment, and everything to do with
    proper noting etiquette.  In case you haven't had the opportunity to
    read the base note of this conference, it states:
    
    **********************************************************************
                <<< GVRIEL::DUA1:[NOTES$LIBRARY]BAGELS.NOTE;1 >>>
                -< BAGELS and other things of Jewish interest >-
================================================================================
Note 1.1                     Introduction and Policy                     1 of 57
CADCAM::MAHLER "If you knew Sushi Like I know Sushi" 13 lines  26-FEB-1986 16:05
                              -< Yup, I'm pissed >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    	Further Policy:
    
    	o	No *'s in place of obvious vowels
    		for cursing.    
    ***********************************************************************
    
    I take this to mean that swearing/cursing is not allowed.  Furthermore,
    the base note also asks that all users of the conference familiarize
    themselves with the Orange Book, Personnel and Policies section 6.24
    which states in part:
    
    ***********************************************************************
                               Employee Conduct


SCOPE:  WORLDWIDE

Digital strives to create and maintain a positive work environment.
To achieve this, the Company encourages courteous and respectful
behavior, a responsible attitude toward work and respect for
employee and Company property.

The Company feels strongly about this and has developed this
Employee Conduct Statement to help clarify differences in judgment.
This statement outlines general principles on which employees are
expected to base their behavior and cites examples of unacceptable
conduct; the examples are not meant to be all-inclusive.


For example, they will not:

     o Behave in a manner offensive to others.

    ***********************************************************************
                         
    I happened to find the statements you made concerning the Pope
    offensive.  As far as I know, proper noting etiquette applies to ALL.
    
    Your reply in .7 was totally unnecessary in reference to the discussion
    at hand.  If I were to reverse the statements you made so that it was
    someone who was not Jewish speaking about the Jewish people, that person 
    would be labeled anti-Semitic, called into Personnel's office and could 
    kiss any future hope of promotions within Digital away.
    
    					Steve
    

RE .9
I do know that I may open a rathhole and this question has been discussed 
extensively within this conference but I will try to sum it up. 

The International "Phill" committee in 1937 and the united nation in 1947 agreed
on the partition of Palestine between the Jewish and Arabs.
The Jews accepted it and the Arabs didn't and started with what is called 
by the Israelis the independence war and by the Palestinians the Holocaust
or the destruction war.

The Palestinian and the Arab countries also didn't accept the U.N. resolutions
242 after the 1967 war and resolution 332 (if I am not wrong about the number)
in 1974 which called for Israel to retreat to the what is called The "Green
lines" and establish peace in the middle east.

In Camp David agreement on 1978 Israel promised to give the Palestinians in 
the so called "occupied territories" an intermediate period of Autonomy and
after that talk about there destiny but they once again rejected this proposal.

Only in Summer 1988 after decades of fighting and rejecting any reasonable 
solution the Palestinians at (least officailly) agreed to the U.N. 
resolution 242 and 332 under  "their own condition" . 

The bottom line is that both sides from international law point of view
(or Human Right point of view  you name it) has the right to be there,
Israel has always accepted it and the current status of the Palestinians is
a result of their own stupidity and stubbornness over the years. 

As far as I know (correct me if I'm wrong) the pop or pops haven't been doing
too much (if at all) during all this years to convince the Arab side to give up
their hope to exterminate Israel or to accept any peacefull solution.

Another point of view from  the Palestinians's side:
    
    
================================================================================
Note 757.1        Terrorism? Who's terrorist and who's victim?           1 of 75
OLDTMR::ASHRAF "Gone today, here tomorrow"          145 lines  16-AUG-1989 14:20
                    -< Twenty facts about Paletine Problem >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

	     **********************************************
             TWENTY BASIC FACTS ABOUT THE PALESTINE PROBLEM
	     **********************************************


          DID YOU KNOW:

       1.   THAT, when the Palestine Problem was created by Britain in
            1917, more than 90% of the population of Palestine were
            Arabs?... And that there were at that time no more than
            56,000 Jews in Palestine?

       2.   THAT, more than half of the Jews living in Palestine at that
            time were recent immigrants, who had come to Palestine in the
            preceding decades in order to escape persecution in Europe?..
            And that less than 5% of the population of Palestine were
            native Palestinian Jews?

       3.   THAT, the Arabs of Palestine at that time owned 97% of the
            land, while Jews (native Palestinians and recent immigrants
            together) owned only 2 1/2% of the land?

       4.   THAT, during the thirty years of British occupation and rule,
            the Zionists were able to purchase only 3 1/2% of the land of
            Palestine, in spite of the encouragement of the British Government?.
            And that much of its land was transferred to Zionists bodies
            by the British Government directly, and was not sold by Arab
            owners?

       5.   THAT, therefore, when Britain passed the Palestine Problem to
            the United Nations in 1947, Zionists owned no more than 6% of
            the total land area of Palestine?

       6.   THAT, notwithstanding these facts, the General Assembly of
            the United Nations recommended that a "Jewish State" be
            established in Palestine?... And that the Assembly granted
            that proposed "State" about 54% of the total area of the
            country?

       7.   THAT, Israel immediately occupied (and still occupies) 80.48%
            of the total land area of Palestine.

       8.   THAT, this territorial expansion took place, for the most
            part, before 15 May 1948, i.e., before the formal end of the
            British mandate and the withdrawal of British forces from
            Palestine, before the entry of Arab armies to protect
            Palestinian Arabs, and before the Arab- Israeli war?

       9.   THAT, the 1947 recommendation of the General Assembly in
            favor of the creation of a "Jewish State" was outside the
            competence of the Assembly under the Charter of the United
            Nations?

      10.   THAT, all attempts by the Arab States and other Asian
            countries to have the Assembly submit the question of
            "constitutionality" of its recommendation to the
            International Court of Justice for an "advisory opinion" by
            the Court were rejected or ignored by the Assembly?

      11.   THAT, when the Assembly began to experience "second thoughts"
            over the matter and convened for its second special session
            in 1948, it failed to reaffirm the 1947 recommendation for
            the partition of Palestine - thus destroying whatever dubious
            legality that recommendation for the establishment of a
            "Jewish State" had had?

      12.   THAT,  the original 1947 recommendation to create a "Jewish
            State" in Palestine was approved, at the first vote, only by
            European, American, and Australian States ... for every Asian
            State, and every African State (with the exception of the
            Union of South Africa) voted against it? ... And that, when
            the vote was cast in plenary session on 29 November 1947,
            urgent American pressures (which a member of the Truman
            cabinet described as "bordering into scandal") had succeeded
            in prevailing only upon one Asian country (the Philippines)
            and one African country (Liberia), both of which had special
            vulnerability to American pressures, to abandon their
            declared opposition?... And, that,  in other words, the
            "Jewish State" was planted at the point-of-intersection of
            Asia and Africa without the free approval of any Middle
            Eastern, Asian, or African country except that Union of South
            Africa itself was ruled by an alien minority?

      13.   THAT, Israel remained, ever since its inception, a total
            stranger in the emerging world of Afro-Asia; and that Israel
            has been refused admission to any inter-state conference of
            Asian, African, Afro-Asian, or Non-Aligned States ever held?

      14.   THAT, since the General Armistice Agreements were signed in
            1949, Israel has maintained an aggressive policy of waging
            military trucks across the Armistice Demarcation Lines, repeatedly
            invading the territories of the neighboring Arab States...
            And that Israel has been duly rebuked, censured, or condemned
            for these military attacks by the Security Council or the
            General Assembly of the United Nations on eleven occasions -
            five times by the Security Council and six times by the
            General Assembly?

      15.   THAT, no other country in the world, whether member of the
            United Nations or non- member, has been so frequently
            condemned by the United Nations?

      16.   THAT, no Arab State has ever been condemned by any organ of
            the United Nations for military attacks upon Israel (or any
            other State)?

      17.   THAT, besides expelling the bulk of the Arab inhabitants of
            Palestine, and besides constantly attacking the neighboring
            Arab States, Israel has also consistently harassed the United
            Nations observer and other personnel stations along the
            Armistice Demarcation lines: It has assassinated the first
            United Nations Mediator and his military aide; it has militarily
            occupied and illegally searched the Headquarters of United
            Nations personnel; and it has boycotted meetings of the Mixed
            Armistice Commissions?

      18.   THAT, Israel has additionally imposed a system of apartheid
            upon the Arabs who stayed in their homeland?... More than 90%
            of these Arabs live in "security zones"; they alone live
            under martial law, restricting their freedom to travel from
            village to village or from town to town; their children
            denied equal opportunities for education; and they are denied
            decent opportunities for work, and the right to receive
            "equal pay for equal work"?

      19.   THAT, notwithstanding the foregoing facts, Israel has always
            been, and still is, widely portrayed in the Western press as
            the "bastion of democracy" and the "champion of peace" in the
            Middle East?

      20.   THAT, the Western Powers have persisted in declaring their
            determination to ensure a so- called "arms balance" in the
            area, between Israel on the one hand, and the one-hundred million
            inhabitants of the thirteen Arab States on the other hand?...
            And this unilateral Western doctrine of so-called "arms
            balance" is no more reasonable than the suggestion that, in
            the Cuban-US conflict, there should be "arms balance" between
            Cuba and the United States... or that the whole Continent of
            Africa should not be allowed to acquire more arms than South
            Africa... or that mainland China should not be permitted to
            have more arms than Taiwan... or that the military allowed to
            acquire more arms than South Africa... and that only thus can
            peace be safeguarded in the Western hemisphere, in Africa, in
            Asia, or in Europe?...

>Only in Summer 1988 after decades of fighting and rejecting any reasonable 
>solution the Palestinians at (least officailly) agreed to the U.N. 
>resolution 242 and 332 under  "their own condition" . 


This could be an endless subject... who knows, perhaps one day peace 
might exist in the Holy Land.

Now that the Palestinians have accepted the U.N. resolutions, what
should be done next ?

I haven't heard of any proposals from the Israelis as to what to do
next ? What happened to the "Egyptian plan" that was "sort of"
acceptable to the U.S. and to the Israeli Labor party?

Re .13

Yes, I am familiar with this stuff and see the appropriate note for responses.

The question was whether Jews or Israel recognize the right of Arabs
to live in Palestine and vise versa and not about the history of this struggle.

I've mentioned few international event and you can check its accuracy whenever
"neutral" archive or document you like.

P.S.
There are close to half million Arab Israelis who lives within the "green line"
and are faithful Israeli citizens.

Now you talk to the point ,although not in conjuction with this note but I
will get back to you (sorry).

Re: .14
>This could be an endless subject... who knows, perhaps one day peace 
might exist in the Holy Land.

 I do hope as much as you are (and may be even more) that this will not be
an endless subject and the bloodshed will be stopped.
 I think that both sides realize that there is only political solution to the
situation (at least the majority on both sides). 

On the other hand during the decades of fighting a lot of deep animosity and
mistrust has been developed , and you can't wipe it out on one day or even 
on one year. Remember that the Jews have (currently) only one homeland while
the Arabs have almost twenty (I do know that the  Palestinians didn't get
"honey and milk" from their "Arab brothers" but at least it remains within the
family) 

Some irreversible processes have taken place during the years and it is 
difficult to reverse history.
Many Israelis will have to get use to the idea that you have to give back 
territories in return to peace, and many Palestinians will have to get use to 
the idea that they will never return to Jaffa or Haifa, and there are other 
major obstacles for immediate peace agreement.

>Now that the Palestinians have accepted the U.N. resolutions, what
 should be done next ?
> I haven't heard of any proposals from the Israelis as to what to do 
  next ? What happened to the "Egyptian plan" that was "sort of"
  acceptable to the U.S. and to the Israeli Labor party?

Israel has an official proposal ("the Shamir plan") which are backed by both
major parties and talks basically about negotiation with the local 
Palestinian leadership, election in the occupied territories under Israeli
supervision and limited autonomy afterwards for a period of several years
(I don't remember exactly how many) and then reevaluation of the situation.

This proposal was rejected by the Palestinian and was enhanced by the
Egyptians who called it the "Mubarack plan" which seems to be accepted by
the Palestinians but was rejected by the Israeli right wing.
  
The next step will probably be another iteration of "enhancement" to the
proposal or a crisis in the Israeli government which may lead to a new election.

Anyhow ,again,I think and hope that we are witnessing the beginning of long 
and tedious process of negotiation between the two sides. 

If the Palestinians on the West Bank and Gaza strip will elect to spend this 
period of time by throwing stones or molotov cocktails on Israeli soldiers and
getting in return plastic or rubber bullets or even live ammunition then the
prophet already said "Alla Yerahmu" and no Pop will help them out of it. 

P.S. the second U.N. resolution mentioned in .13 is 338 and not 332, 
     sorry about it.

    	Pretty soon, the discussion will shift once again, if things keep
    progressing the way they are going. The aliyah has exploded in the
    course of the last two months. Russian Jews alone are now coming in at
    the rate of almost 3000/month, and the flow is growing. Ethiopian Jews
    (about 18K) are about to come again, and the Argentinians are suddenly
    coming in droves. The absorption centers are full, and construction is
    about to begin on a large number of housing units for the expected
    olim. I gotta tell you, coupled with the reports we get out of Russia
    re. the resurgent anti-Semitism, we could see a million new olim in
    Israel in the next few years. That would once again shift the balance
    of power and the national consensus away from giving up land.
    
    DG

    re: .19
    
    This isn't such a big deal as Israel has been dealing with the East
    Bloc steadily since 1967, mostly through third parties or directly
    without any publicity.  Israeli produce has even been sold to some Arab
    countries.
    
    --David