Conference taveng::bagels

    	Perhaps my wife is right after all. Pick up and go to Israel, where
    this stuff will continue on a national basis, but at least there you
    can legally resist... before it's too late.
    
    DG

    There's no doubt about it.....there are plenty of sick puppies out
    there. A Hasidic friend of mine who lives in Monsey, NY was telling
    me about similar outrages that were committed in his neighborhood
    (e.g., desecration of synagogues) last year. Up in Concord, NH, not
    too far from where I live, the synagogue was vandalized this year.
    Members of the Christian community in Concord who spoke up against the
    vandalism received threatening phone calls. There are also reports
    the KKK is recruiting out in the Seacoast region.
    
    What to do about it? Stationing armed guards at every synagogue
    strikes me as playing into the hands of the anti-semites. They could
    use that perhaps to say, "See, we told you! Those Jews hate Gentiles so
    much they're ready to shoot us on sight! Let's get them before they
    get us." On the other hand, no congregation should have to suffer the
    horror of vandalism. One possible solution is to ensure some kind
    of deterrance (burglar alarm or whatever) is available followed
    by swift prosecution and a jail term for the vandals.
    
    Just some thoughts....
    
    Mark

At the Harvard Hillel service this afternoon, someone mentioned this
incident to Rabbi Gold (who grew up in pre-war Poland, and escaped the
Holocaust).

He didn't think it was very important, noting that the American anti-semites
have no political stature: there is no anti-semite newspaper or political
party in America; and nobody is condoning their actions.

Since this was the day of repentence, he also pointed out that many
Jews harbor hatred for Christians [and, I would add, Muslims] that is
not mitigated for not being expressed with spray paint.

Martin.

    re. .3 on politicial parties:
    
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was almost certain that there IS an
    official NAZI party in the US.
    
    Enquiringly yours,
    
    Chris 

    Re .3 and .4:
    
    Right on both counts. In other countries, anti-semitism is virtually
    part of the national social fabric if you will. The Soviet Union,
    for example, has made "Zionist" activities synonymous with treason
    practically (look what happened to Scharansky (sp?)) - you can't be a
    loyal Soviet citizen if you have allegiance to Israel, at least as far
    as the Soviets are concerned.
    
    Yes, we have a Nazi party in America. However, other than attracting
    a few votes from the lunatic fringe, I would have to say their
    *political* influence (key word is political), so far anyway, has
    been minimal.
    
    I am a little concerned about the KKK though. Their publicly-stated
    goal is to have KKK candidates run for various local political offices
    so that they can return control of America to "Americans". That
    kind of platform certainly bears watching.
    
    Bottom line: we're relatively fortunate regarding institutionalized
    anti-semitism here in the US. That doesn't say we don't have
    anti-semitism because we do. What it does say is as a result of
    vigilance on the part of enough caring people we've been able to
    confine it for the most part to the lunatic fringe.
    
    The challenge is making sure people don't get too complacent about
    it (the "It can't happen here" syndrome).
    
    Just some more thoughts.....
    
    Mark
    
    

Two young men (age 19 each) were arrested last night in connection with the
Wellesley incident. At that age, the boys were more likely a couple of wiseguys
rather than serious anti-Semites.

Dave

    Disagree...

    	Boys? Age 19?! Fully grown, dangerous asses is more apt here.
    
    DG

    
    
    Two boys?  Did it in very organized way in 3-mile radius?
    I do not belive, there were just two 'boys' involved.
    
    Sam.

    Had they killed along with this? What would that be, just boys!
    Where do they learn this type of activity? Dismissing this as a
    prank is how we get ourselves in all sorts fo trouble.

I have reconsidered what I said in .6 and I agree that I was wrong in offering
any form of apology on behalf of the perpetrators. Whatever the intent behind
the action, what was done was so offensive that it must not go unpunished.
There may be others waiting to see if these two get off lightly, ready to take
a risk if the punishment is minimal.

Dave

According to today's Globe, the two 19-year olds who were arrested were
"out of the mainstream" of their environment.

"A chief characteristic of each, classmates siad, was rebellion against
the comfortable upper-middle-class lifestyle of Wellesley, one of the
Boston area's richest and most genteel suburbs.

"Generally unpopular with other students, and unconventional in dress and
manner, the two seemed to reject the high-achieving work ethic of many high
school students and their mainstream social lives.  ... Both were poor
students.  Neither entered full-time college.

"... [Both] seemed to associate attention-getting vandalism with a good
time.  'They were just into spray-painting everywhere,' said a high
school student who knows both of them.

"Robert Butterworth, a Los Angeles psychologist who has studied teen-agers
who purport to be Nazis, said that young people  often write hate graffiti
not out of racial anger but out of rebellion."  ... He  also said that
teen-agers who say they admire Adolf Hitler changer their minds when educated
about the Holocaust.

Martin.

In response to 792.1 (DG), it reminds me an interview with Aba Eban that I have
read in the "Rosh Hashana" bulletin of "Bamachane" (the IDF official magazine)
in which he told the following story:
Five Jewish guys were walking on the street in a polish town and saw two
young Gentiles approaching them. One of them told the others 
"lets run away because we are five and they are two (but the all country is
supporting them)".
    
Anyhow, It's still not so bad here, but we should bear in mind that Israel too
is not going to be a safe place for any Jew if the majority of the Jewish 
people will prefer to live in the Diaspora.
    
How long do you think Aprox. 3 million Jews (I don't count the Illiterate and 
Ultraorthodox) will survive within an hostile Islamic world and among
the Antisemitic  Christian countries?

    
>How long do you think Aprox. 3 million Jews (I don't count the Illiterate and 
>Ultraorthodox)......

   Huh?

    re .14: What did you expect of reply 13 on Friday the 13th? :-)
            JGILON must've been in a particularly negative mood . . .
            
    
    

Hmm, I have that copy of bemachane also, but haven't read that interview.  I 
too am a bit befuddled by .13.

--David

RE:792.14- 792.16. I didn't mean to offend or insult anyone, but on the same
issue of Bamchane that I've mentioned was an interview with General Mathan 
Vilnai who admitted that 25% of the young Jewish Israelis don't join the
army, most of them belongs to the two categories mentioned in my response.

Anyhow, one of the points that I wanted to make (and it does have nothing to do 
Friday the 13th) is that many secular Israelis, who carries the main burden of
the existence of Israel and are paying heavy price (not necessarily in money),
don't like anymore the idea that many Jews in the Diaspora take it for
granted that Israel will survive for ever and accept them automatically 
"just" in case of emergency (such as in the case "growing antisemitism").

I do know that this issue is an unpleasant one to discuss it among American
Jews and I can elaborate on it much more if you like (I've got first hand 
experience on both sides).

Chag Sameach

                   P.S.- The story that I quoted on 792.13 was told by
                          Dr. Israel Eldad and not by Aba Eban on the
                          Bamachane magazine, sorry about it.                 

    	Where did .1 mention Israel as an insurance policy? Where did I
    assume that "Israel will survive for ever" (sic)? I hope so, but I
    didn't write that. I don't take the situation for granted, please
    reread the few lines in .1, and your vitriolic is quite misplaced here,
    trust me...
    
    DG

OH well, you didn't say it explicitly but I have heard the Israeli solution 
from many others whenever Antisemitism or the holocaust is brought up. 
I think it is right and natural because this is one of the main reasons for
the creation and existence of Israel  but something is missing.

There is an excellent new movie which deals the Jewish American identity, Anti
semitism, holocaust and the state of Israel, it called "Memories..something"
(I've forgotten the full name ) and was presented during the last weekend in
"Bruttle" Theater in Cambridge.

Forgive me if I've taken advantage of your response to elevate this important 
and somehow unspoken issue.

While on vacation last month, I picked up a copy of the French newsmagazine
L'Express, whose cover story was on "Antisemitism in France."
(15-21 September).  The following week's issue (perhaps of a different
newsmagazine) was on the strained relations between the Pope and the Jews.
(I didn't buy that one, though.)

If anyone wants a xerox of the article, please let me know by mail.
Sorry, you'll have to translate it yourself.

The article mentions the Autant-Lara affair, the "diatribes of Le Pen,"
and the "rediscovery of notions that one hoped would never be reheard" by the 
right-wing press.

Martin.

                      <<< Note 792.17 by SMVDV1::JGILON >>>
                            -< Let's talk straight >-

>Anyhow, one of the points that I wanted to make (and it does have nothing to do 
>Friday the 13th) is that many secular Israelis, who carries the main burden of
                               ^^^^^^^
>the existence of Israel and are paying heavy price (not necessarily in money),
>don't like anymore the idea that many Jews in the Diaspora take it for
>granted that Israel will survive for ever and accept them automatically 
>"just" in case of emergency (such as in the case "growing antisemitism").

      The use of the word "secular" here is totally unwarranted.  In 
      order to prevent my reply from getting zapped by the moderators, 
      I'll refrain from saying what I think really of that statement.
   
      Are you alluding to the fact that SOME people don't go to 
      the army during the period which they are pursuing their 
      religious studies?  Have you seen the statistical breakdown
      for all those not serving in the army regarding "affiliation"?
      How many are illiterates?  How many are criminals?  How 
      many are infirm?  How many are in "attudah" (secular academic 
      deferment)?  Do you know what percentage of orthodox 
      Israelis serve in the army and what percentage of secular?
      Do you have any idea of numbers of orthodox soldiers killed 
      vs secular as percentage of the population?

      In another vain, I think that Israel IS an insurance policy
      for the Jewish people.  All Jews should help pay the 
      premiums in any way they can.  

I read in the paper this weekend that the judge in the case allowed the two
defendants to plead guilty and sentenced them to some number of hours of
community service. Local Jewish leaders were upset, calling it an example
of "white wash". The defendants could have been sentenced to jail on just the
vandalism charges alone.

Dave