Conference taveng::bagels

I don't believe that your feelings are necessarily American. Incidentally,
I am an American living (18 years) in Israel and I feel the same as you.

I know many Israelis who also feel this way. I know Americans who don't.

I do know that there are certain monetary incentives for persons who have
taxi licenses that make it worth while to buy Mercedes. But, as George
Bernard Shaw once said to the Duchess of Windsor (correct me if I'm wrong)
"that you are a whore has been already established, now we are merely
haggling on the price".

Cb.

       How about Fords?  Henry Ford was a virulent anti-Semite.
       
       --Don

Yes he was and no he wasn't.  He was very much a supporter of the Jewish
conspiracy theory and the elders of Protocol wirtings.  He also had a friend
who was a Rabbi.  Henry was not so much anti-Semetic as he was against the
Jewish Bankers. (I'n not excusing or condoing just explaining).  His son's
however didn't agree with him and they were involved with one of the Investment
houses (Jewish House) when Ford went public.  What ever his feelings there
is no proof that I know that he harmed Jews.  That is the Jewish distiction.
His actions are what counts and not his feelings.  Mercedez on the other
hand support the German effort against the Jews by supporting Hitler and
that is different.

WS

Seriously, though, while I'm not real hot on the idea of buying a 
German (per se) car, what about the American-made Volkswagens?
Is buying a VW the same as buying a German car if it's assembled
by Americans, or does it become more of an American car?  (The Golf
looks very nice this year, for an ugly box...)

VW is a multinational conglomerate by now.  I believe I bought a Royal
typewriter a few years ago, and found out that it was made by Triumph-
Adler (in Japan), itself a subsidiary of VW.  I'm not sure if that
makes a difference.
             fred

I believe your question is very well put, and frankly I'm not 100% sure
myself what the answer should be.

Personally I believe the yes/no buy German made products dilemma is one of
recognition and not one of economics. Certainly a minority group such as
ourselves will have no affect whatsoever on the German economy by boycotting
German made products.

I believe that certain products symbolise and stand for Germany even if they 
were not assembled in Germany since the immediate association is with Germany . 
These products I personally would not buy. Other products, although they may
have been made in Germany, are not indicative of Germany and are not readily
associated with Germany. I would not buy these products knowingly, however, if
I were to buy such a product unknowingly and discover afterwards that it is 
German made I wouldn't throw it away.

Again, this is my personal opinion and I believe each and every individual
must form his own based on the way he/she feels. I don't believe that everyone
must feel as I do. I don't believe that anyone who wantonly purchases German
made products, whichever they are, is insensitive or wrong.

Now, I'm sure that my own personal opinion can be argued upon. I'm sure there
are people who would boycott any product that was in any way related to Germany
even if only one minute component were German. 

Cb.

My own opinion is that I would buy a Porsche, so...

Michael

Happy New Year.

...so save for it!
   Greg

    You don't really mean to suggest that all Germans are guilty of
    mass murder, even when most living Germans were children or unborn
    at the time, do you?
    
    I don't believe in collective guilt.  I would think that the idea
    of collective guilt would be anathema to Jews, considering how
    much suffering it has caused for them.
    
    			-John Bishop

    
    
    	I do not think anyone here is insinuating that ALL
    	Germans are Guilty of mass murder;  But then again,
    	Not ALL Japanese are Pearl Harbor Mongers; Not all
    	Swedish Women have Blonde Hair and Blue Eyes and
    	not ALL Italians have Hairy Chests.
    
    
    	Just a thought.
    

    	 Re .8
    
         John,
         
         I think you have a naive attitude. But then you haven't lost 
         any aunts, uncles, or grandparents in the holocaust. There is 
         no doubt that the last generation of Germans were guilty of 
         genocide. Their government recognizes this by continuing to 
         pay 10s of millions of dollars in reparations to the 
         survivors of the holocaust and their families each year. Most 
         of this money goes, to Israel in the name of those families 
         that were totally wiped out.
    
    	 Coming from this background I have a great deal of difficulty 
         carrying out business as usual, supporting the economy and 
         institutions of a government who attempted to wipe Judaism 
         off the face of the earth. By not having this in your 
         background you could never understand why we feel this way.
    
				Fred

    re 52.9
    	I know an Italian woman with a hairy chest!

    A few years ago I brought home a badge from a German architectural
    exibition.  My father threw it away as soon as he saw it.  After
    spending a few years in a German concentration camp he can't stand
    anything German, whether it is people, goods or art.  I don't think
    I can blame him for that.
    
    Leo

    Hmmmmm an interesting thought Fred. The trouble with that reasoning
    is that we suffered from that type of approach for many years.
    Being blamed by "righteous" Christians for killing Christ 2000 years
    ago didn't make much sense to me when I was 8 years old... . Having
    lost most of my father's family in the Holocaust I am certainly
    concerned but ... I can't say that blaming someone who wasn't even
    born at the time is the right answer.
    About a year ago I attended a course in Holland where I became good
    friends with a German guy who was also attending the same course.
    One night after a few beers we broached the subject of "the war"
    and whether "we" could ever forgive and let live. My humble opinion
    was that I could forgive. But under no circumstance would I forget
    nor let people forget, as someone once said "those who forget are
    condeming themselves to repeat the same mistakes".
    ...and I would certainly buy a Porsche!
    Re 52.9 any chance of getting her name and address?      
    

    
    
    	I really can not see treating all of Germany
    	with contempt.  We may have all lost loved ones
    	to the Holocaust, but it was the Nazi's that we
    	should hate, not all of Germany.  I have met
    	many German's of my generation who have many
    	regrets for the Holocaust, but at the same time
    	have a frustration in that they do not know
    	what to do about something they did not condone.
    
    	Michael
    

    Collective guilt is a tough one.  Plain fact is, that most of the
    German people alive at the time consented to their government's
    will.  Hitler was elected, if you recall, with about 42% of the
    vote (a plurality).  Volkswagen has a special historical role
    because it was created as part of a scam to raise money for the
    Nazi war effort by taking down payments for a car that was never
    delivered.  F. Porsche was involved in this; he founded VW.

    But the _present_ government is not simply a successor to the Nazi
    regime.  The Federal Republic was created by the Allies using
    resistance members and other opponents of the Nazis in the govt.
    Their hands are cleaner than Porsche's.  And the vast majority of
    today's workers are too young to have been actively invovled in
    the war -- someone who was 20 in 1940 would be 65-66 today and
    retiring.
    
    I'm still not sure which way I go on the German car issue.  That
    new VW does look awful nice, and it is largely American nowadays,
    though the counting-house is back in Stuttgart.  I think I should
    be more concerned about the success of neo-Nazi groups in getting
    significant fringe support in Europe; for instance, LePen's
    gang got 10% of the new French parliament and is on half the regional
    councils.  But they're not so easy to boycott as an obvious symbol
    like VW.

    I don't beleive that Hitler was elected with such a plurality (please
    see see The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich for further details
    on how A.H got to power).
    Ferdinand Porsche, an Austrian, was indeed the founder of the Beetle
    engine concept and supplied engines for German tanks and continues
    to do so today (the Leopard is powered by a Porsche engine). He
    was imprisioned by the Allied Powers and served I beleive until
    the early 1950's. The factory, then run by his son and a colleague
    moved to Austria and when Porsche senior was released it moved to
    it's present home in Stuttgart Zuffenhausen. The Porsche concern,
    which by the way is no longer a family business having been bought
    out in part by VW (which also owns Audi), gets most of its income
    from consulting work. Thus for those afficionados who remember the
    Super 90 or the 356 that number denotes the internal Porsche project
    number. Thus the 911 was the 911th project Porsche undertook. It
    is involved in most high-tech consulting from marine engineering
    to Formula 1 racing being paid by TAG (Technique d'Avant Garde)
    a Saudi concern and won the last two seasons. There were much worse
    cases than Porsche. The Krupp's and IG Farben which literally killed
    thousands of forced laborers were rebuilt in order to stave off
    the russian buildup under the MArshall Plan!
    The West German government was not founded exclusively by resistance
    fighters. The US as well as the other occupying powers utilzed many
    ex-Nazi's for their own aims. Examples: Klaus Barbie the butcher
    of Lyons, the head of the Abwehr who set up the West German
    intelligence service who'se name escapes me at present, plus a horde
    of Byelorussian criminals who were to be used to eventually sabotage
    things behind the Russian zone. There were two or three attempts
    all or most of them were caught by the russians and executed. This
    is the difference between what we call "real politik" and what the
    world knows or swallows in general.
    I still beleive that collective guilt is not the answer. We must
    not forget what happened but we can't continue to humiliate ourselves
    with that expecting world simpathy. We must ensure, through education
    that such things never happen again (...Cambodia,Ethiopia,Uganda...)
    but we must learn to earn the respect of the world through other
    means.

The other side of the "Buy/don't buy German" question just occurred
to me -- 

Does anyone who holds the "Don't buy German" position also go out of 
his way to purchase Danish goods?  Considering how the Danes supported
the Jews during WW II, it would seem to be consonant reasoning...

.17> Does anyone who holds the "Don't buy German" position also go out of 
.17> his way to purchase Danish goods?  Considering how the Danes supported
.17> the Jews during WW II, it would seem to be consonant reasoning...
    
    	 The Talmud says, I believe in the Sanhedren, that even though 
         a Jew lives in gulus (in exile) he should support the 
         government of whatever country he lives in.
    
    	 I look around and see products from all over the world on 
         sale here. Products from Germany, Japan, Taiwan, and now 
         Republic of China! There is a sign posted at the entrance to 
         the parking lot of a Chrisler factory in Detroit that sums up 
         my feeling about foreign products. "If you have a Japanese 
         car park it in Tokyo!" As an American citizen I support 
         America.
    
    	 Joyce, I assume that you are a citizen of this great country. 
         I would like to know if you have an American made car? How 
         much of your clothing is made in America? How about Your TV? 
         In general, what are your feelings about "Buy American"?
    
				Fred

    PS - For those of you on the other side of the pond, please excuse 
         my Ashkenazi transliterations.
    

     
     re .18:
     
     > The Talmud says...that even though a Jew lives in gulus (in exile) he
     > should support the government of whatever country he lives in.

     By that reasoning, you would have to believe that Sakharov is wrong
     when he protests against the Soviet government.
     
     Fred, do you blindly support the country in which you live, following
     its leader regardless of the path that he is taking? That seems to be
     what you're proposing; it also sounds frighteningly similar to the
     prevailing attitude in Germany 50 years ago. 
     
     --Don

     Re .19
    
     >Fred, do you blindly support the country in which you live, following
     >its leader regardless of the path that he is taking? That seems to be
     >what you're proposing; it also sounds frighteningly similar to the
     >prevailing attitude in Germany 50 years ago. 
     >
     >--Don
    
    	 Don, you are committing the fallacy of black or white. I see 
         no conflict in being American and at the same time being an 
         Orthodox Jew. I am glad that I was born in a country where I 
         am free to practice the religion of my choice, without 
         coercion. Of course from time to time we run across an 
         anti-Semite. These are individuals who don't like us. In 
         Germany it was the government who was doing the persecution.
    

     >By that reasoning, you would have to believe that Sakharov is wrong
     >when he protests against the Soviet government.
    
    	 My reasoning implies no such thing. Sakharov was justified in 
         what he did. In the Soviet Union there is an official state 
         policy of anti-Semitism. In the United States there is no 
         such policy.

				Fred

    No, Fred, but there is a semi-official United States policy in
    favor of manufacturing Junk.  At least some Asians and Europeans
    still have some pride in their work!
    
    (Present Company - er, Corporation - excepted.  Somebody has to
    keep the USA economy alive!)
    
        fred_who_drives_a_Toyota_and_is_looking_at_a_Chinese(HK)_VT220
    

    re: .18
    
    Fred, I don't think I agree with your analysis of "Buy American".
    While I certainly like the country I live in, and while I do support
    it when appropriate, I won't blindly "buy American".
    
    When I'm out to purchase a product, particularly one of considerable
    cost (i.e. anything over some predetermined amount of money, for
    me about $100.00 or so), I generally look into the purchase somewhat
    to insure that I'm getting the most value for my money.  As the
    cost of the purchase gets higher, I spend more time looking to it
    first.  This includes reading reviews in magazines, independent
    tests of products, etc, reliability ratings, judgments from others
    that have a similar product, etc.
    
    So, say for example I want to buy a car.  There are some very safe,
    very reliable, and very cost effective foreign cars available. 
    Should I "buy American" when statistically, I'm less likely to have
    problems and far more likely to be happier with the purchase with
    a carefully chosen foreign car?  I should say not.
    
    I'm a consumer.  As such, I look closely at what I buy (as my
    pocketbook dictates).  If American products rank up (and often they
    do), then great!  If not, then American companies have to work on
    their product for me to buy it.  Why, in certain circumstances,
    buy something of inferior quality?
    
    Not all American products are of inferior quality (some products
    are quite good); some are, though, and that's what I'll stay away
    from.
    
    	-- Jeff

    re .19
    
    Don, I believe that a Jew should support the country he lives in,
    but not necesserily the government.  For instance, I do support
    the present USA Administrtion but it doesn't mean I will do the
    next.  Sakharov (who is not Jewish, BTW) is opposing the Soviet
    system, not the country.  He stressed many times that he did not
    have anything against the Soviet people.  A very large number of
    Soviet Jews (like my father) were in combat during WWII, fighting 
    for Russia.
    
    Personally, though, I do not like most of the Russian people who
    are in the most part anti-Semites, but that's the way they were
    brought up.  
    
    Leo

     
     re .23:
     
     That's an excellent distinction that you make, Leo, and I agree
     with you completely.  A Jew should support his or her country
     and work toward seeing that its government best serves its people
     and their interests.
     
     --Don

    For me it's neither German economics not guilt.
    
    It's a matter of echoes.
    
    I cannot sit in a Volkswagon without hearing (may his name be
    obliterated) screaming:
    
    Ein Volk
    Ein Reich
    Ein Feuhrer
    
    The language, its rhythm, its sound is forever corrupt and anathema.
    
    Crazy, huh?
    
    Herb
    

    
    Sorry for bring up an old topic, but I recieve my readings by topic,
    in batch, by mail.  This was todays topic topic, and I found it
    very interesting, but I don't feel the conversation was completed.
    
    Joyce asked in .17 -
    
> Does anyone who holds the "Don't buy German" position also go out of 
> his way to purchase Danish goods?  Considering how the Danes supported
> the Jews during WW II, it would seem to be consonant reasoning...

    Fred danced around the question with this answer -
        
>    	  The Talmud says, I believe in the Sanhedren, that even though 
>         a Jew lives in gulus (in exile) he should support the 
>         government of whatever country he lives in.
>    
>     	  I look around and see products from all over the world on 
>         sale here. Products from Germany, Japan, Taiwan, and now 
>         Republic of China! There is a sign posted at the entrance to 
>         the parking lot of a Chrisler factory in Detroit that sums up 
>         my feeling about foreign products. "If you have a Japanese 
>         car park it in Tokyo!" As an American citizen I support 
>         America.
          
    Then the conversation drabbled down to 'Buy American and drink Lite
    beer'.  (excluding the last reply).                  
    
    I really am interested - If you boycott German made products, for
    whatever reason - emotional or 'the principal' - do you buy Dannish
    products (or products of a country that help support the Jews during
    WW II)?
    
    Also, maybe pushing the issue to far, but if one was going to to
    hold the 'responsiblity' (please don't pick on this wording, I really
    can't come up with a better one at the moment) of the holocaust 
    against German manufacturs (not so much because they are 'responsable' 
    but because they are a easy symbolic mark) what actions to you take 
    against the US for allowing the concentration camps to go on as long
    as they did. 
                            
    garrett

    Re .26
    
    Garrett, what's wrong with "buy American"?  You have defined this
    as an invalid argument and in your terms anyone who espouses it is
    dancing around the issue.  You are entitled to your opinion but as
    far as I'm concerned buying American is a perfectly valid
    arguement. 
    
    If you want to talk about the alleged collective guilt of the
    German people for the events of WW II, let me ask YOU a few
    questions. Why is the Nazi party still active in modern day
    Germany? Why is the Austrian Prime Minister a former Nazi officer
    responsible for the deaths of thousands of civilians? 
    
    When you find the answers to these questions you will realize why
    products associated with wartime Germany are very unpopular among
    segments of the American population. 
    
    >Then the conversation drabbled down to 'Buy American and drink Lite
    >beer'.
    
    No thank you. I prefer Coors beer.

    			Fred

     re .28:
     
     I'm confused.  Do you not want to buy a German car because of your
     association etween Germans and Nazism, or because you think it's
     better to own an American car instead of a foreign-made one?
     
     > Why is the Nazi party still active in modern day Germany? 
     
     There are German laws against both the Nazi party and the
     dissemination of some Nazi literature.  Thus, there is much greater
     acceptance of Nazism in the States than in Germany.  Moreover, the US
     has given tacit and not-so-tacit help to fellows like Barbie and
     several others who chose the US over the Soviets after the war.
     Will you now get rid of your US-made cars?
     
     > Why is the Austrian Prime Minister a former Nazi officer responsible
     > for the deaths of thousands of civilians? 
     
     What do the Austians have to do with the Germans?  Waldheim was
     elected by the Austrian people; so far as I know, no German citizen
     voted for him. Blaming people from Germany for something done by a
     whole 'nother group of people is thoughtless and unfair, at best. 
     
     --Mr Topaz 

    Re .28 
    
    In 1979 I bought a new Volkswagon rabbit and had nothing but
    problems with it. In less than one year it needed a valve job and
    the transmission was going. I know of at least two other people
    who had similar problems. So much for the myth of German
    engineering.
    
    			Fred 

>   What's wrong with "buy American"?  You have defined this
>   as an invalid argument and in your terms anyone who espouses it is
>   dancing around the issue.  
    
    Absolutely nothing is wrong buying American.  I was trying to say
    more 'dancing around the question' than 'dancing around the issue'.
    I hope I haven't made it an issue.  The reason being that the question
    specifically asked if you boycott German products (for all the previously
    mentioned reasons), do you buy Danish goods for their assistance
    to the Jews during WW II?  I am not asking if you only by Danish
    cheese, butter cookies, only wear Danish clogs on your feet.  If
    you are buying something, do you ever take in consideration that
    one of the products you are making selection on was made in Denmark.
    The same type of thought that says 'Toyota is made in Japan, not
    the US'?
    
>   Why is the Nazi party still active in modern day Germany? 
    
    Why is it still 'active' in the United States?  Why has LaRouche
    done so well?  And what about the 'Independent Church' or what ever
    it's called, probably one of the scariest things that is happening
    in the US today?  Answering a question with another question isn't
    really fair, but hopefully it does a better job then defending my
    thoughts, which we could banter about, but in the end we both agree
    on the basics, it sucks that they exist.
    
>   Why is the Austrian Prime Minister a former Nazi officer responsible
>   for the deaths of thousands of civilians? 
        
    Would you accept publicity as the answer?  I don't think the guy
    would be there today if none of that came out.  Ah, wait.  I am
    not trying to say he got elected because he was a Nazi.  But people
    felt sorry for him.  But before you start on this, what does all
    this have to do with boycotting VWs and buying Danish products?
         
>   When you find the answers to these questions you will realize why
>   products associated with wartime Germany are very unpopular among
>   segments of the American population. 
 
    Whoa!  I never said anyone was wrong in boycotting German cars, coffee 
    grinders or alarm clocks.  I don't think I can fully understand, but 
    surely it's not my place to criticize.
    
    The question is, last time, I promise - Do you buy Danish goods?
    
    Why do I care?  Maybe that is what is bothering you?  I found the
    discussion very enlightening.  If someone would give their opinions
    on this, I feel it will cap the subject.  
    
    garrett 
    

    From a personal viewpoint (I strated this note) the question of
    buy American is somewhat off the topic.  I thought that the Chrysler
    comment was interesting since Chrysler admits that 50% of the car
    is produced outside of the US.  In terms of owning a Danish car
    or product yes I do go out of my way to buy Danish products or Swedish
    products because the Swedes were very involved in smuggling the
    Jews of Danemark into Sweden when it became necessary to evacualte
    them.  
    
    As for owning a Volkswagen.  There is a direct link to the Nazis
    as the company and even the original car was developed by Hitler.
    Mercedez and others I believe where active in supporting the Nazis
    and for the reason "I" abstain from knowingly buying their products.
    
    As for Austrians.  They were noted for being more sadistic than
    the Germans (If it possible to quantify such things).  Maybe they 
    had to prove they were better than the Germans.  The election of
    Waldhiem is no accident.  He was elected because of what he did
    not because of a sympathy vote.  The Austrians don't feel that they
    have anything to repent about and are secretly proud of doing their
    duty.
    
    WS

                I am finding this discussion interesting in light 
                of the fact  that  a fellow DEC employee upon his 
                return from Israel brought  me  back a DEC letter 
                opener  from  DEC/Israel.    Don't    know  which 
                facility.
                
                It's hockey puck-shaped, white, with the  Digital 
                logo in Hebrew and English.
                
                Turn it over. On the back:
                
                        Made in W. Germany
                
                So much for that.
                
                Warren

    Not surprizing.  DEC in order to administer the Mid-East  with a
    seperation between Israel and the Arab countries aligned DEC-Israel
    with W. Germany.                          
    
    WS

    re:.29:
>    In 1979 I bought a new Volkswagon rabbit and had nothing but
>    problems with it. In less than one year it needed a valve job and
>    the transmission was going. I know of at least two other people
>    who had similar problems. So much for the myth of German
>    engineering.

    It sounds like Fred didn't feel so "principled" about German cars
    _per se_ back in 1979!  Heck, I bought a Plymouth in 1976 and it
    was a dog.  So I replaced it with a different make.  But I don't
    go knocking all American-made cars because of it.  In fact, my new
    car is American-made -- a Chevy Nova (which is of course a Toyota
    Corolla, but built in California).
    
    BTW the 1979 Rabbit was built in Westmoreland, PA, USA.  Albeit
    with German engineering.
           fred

Don't blame the presence in Israel of goods manufactured in W. Germany
on DEC !!!!  Israel and W. Germany are major trading partners.  Mercedes
is one of the most popular automobiles found in Israel (a high proportion
of taxis in Israel are Mercedes).  Among West German imports easily found
in Israel are: small appliances, kitchenware, fibers, textiles, magazines, 
shoes... and that's just what I know about from window-shopping!

On the other hand:
The decision by the Israeli government to accept German reparation
money (?in early 60's) and to enter into EXTENSIVE trade, research,
cultural and diplomatic exchanges with W. Germany was bitterly opposed
by a significant portion of the populace, and almost brought a government
down.  However, that was a couple of decades ago, and almost doesn't win any
cigars.

Finally, you can't compare a decision made by a state about trade
poicy with decisions made by individuals about whom they will favor
with their spending money.  The famous aphorism (I can't remember author)
"States have no permanent friends or permanent enemies; only permanent
interests" holds true no less for Israel than for any other country.

    Finally, a realistic point of view.

    Interesting that so many of my parents neighbors on
    LawnGuyLand have Mercede's and VW's in the same driveway.

    The history of the Volkswagen makes it difficult for me to see how
    anyone can buy own one.  
    
    WS

    Heard on AutoWeek [TV show] that Jaguar is that startup
    company of the company that used to supply the sidecars
    to the German WWII motorcycles.

    

I believe that the Holocaust has had an effect on us that is more immediate and
personal than most realize (especially those, like myself, whose families
escaped anihilation). I remember back in grade-school being vaguely afraid
or embarrassed to admit I was Jewish. Could it be that at one time we were not
sure who would win WWII and we were all getting ready to hide? Does this
explain the sorry state of Jewish education in the US?

I once felt that it was a sin to buy German products or associate with German
people (my dad included Japanese too). Then one day I was visiting the home
of the parents of a friend (Jewish) and discovered they had guests with
strong German accents. I became very upset and moody at this. My friend
brought me up short though, because these people were German JEWS who had
luckily escaped the Holocaust. They might just as easily have been German
non-Jews who had helped Jews to escape. It made me realize that being Jewish
does not make me immune from bigotry and my attitude towards German products
softened immediately.

On Yom Kippur we read about rabbis martyred at the hands of the Romans and each
year I shudder at the graphical description of those events. Should we examine
the lineage of each Italian company before we buy Italian products?

In fact, I still don't buy German or Japanese cars knowingly. All I can say in
my defense is that it helps me remember.

Dave

    My parents both emigrated from Vienna in 1938-39.  They hate the
    Austrians, for having "welcomed the Nazi's with open arms."  Both lost
    members of their families to the Germans.  They won't buy a German car,
    because of the personal associations, but they didn't try to talk my
    sister out of buying a Rabbit.  They view the anti-German stance as
    bigotry, and have tried very hard from passing it on to us.

    We are steadily approaching a world market; how many cars on the market
    today are entirely American, from engineering and raw materials through
    to the finished product?  If we are a capitalist nation, whose economic
    situation is to be based on free enterprise, it has to work both
    ways.  To say that we want an open market, but with protection against
    foreign products which are better and/or less expensive than ours, is
    hypocritical.  When an I buy a car, I look at features, price, and
    reliability.  Period.

    Beverly

    I beg to disagree.  There is an element of symbolism that not buying
    a German car has that does not make one anti-German.  If not for
    the support of the German Industrial complex there would not have
    been a Hitler.  And even if there had been a Hitler, these companies
    supported and benefited from the Holocaust.  Worst of all was the
    VW which is a direct decendent of Hitler.
    
    One does not need to be anti-German to not want to buy a car.  

	RE:  .-1 and a few others

>If not for
>the support of the German Industrial complex there would not have
>been a Hitler.  And even if there had been a Hitler, these companies
>supported and benefited from the Holocaust.  Worst of all was the
>VW which is a direct decendent of Hitler.
    
	I'd like to come "off the wall" a little!?

	Whats said here is true, and not only of VW.  For example, 
	Mercedes-Benz used large amounts of "slave" labor.  Another example:
	in "Shoah", do you recall the discussion around the
	trucks that were used as mobile gas chambers?  They were
	very specific about the company involved, and read some
	of the "product engineering" correspondence with the SS.

	Some of the German companies you buy a car from today are
	the very same companies -- not their sisters, cousins, or aunts
	or descendents. They are THOSE specific companies. It seems one 
	could make an excellent case for not buying such a car. And I'll
	admit to such a prejudice in myself.

	But -- let me come at another issue.

	While the above is true, it is also true that Israel gets a
	significant amount of (at least trade, and therefore financial)
	support from West Germany today.

	Let me also observe that the Japanese largely follow the Arab boycott
	of Israel.  For a few examples, you cannot buy Honda, Nissan, or 
	Toyota cars, and many other Japanese products in Israel, at
	least not through any official import channel.

	I would suggest that there's a quandry here. I would ask who --
	as purely a rational and practical matter -- is supporting us,
	and who is not.  I would suggest, from that point of view,
	that we would not want to restrict our purchase of German
	cars, but rather that we should restrict our purchase of Japanese
	_anything_.

	Comments?

/don feinberg

    re .43
    
    The Japanese seem to be getting themselves into hot spots these days.
    
    I know that several people in the Black community are anti-Japanese
    trade because of several derogatory remarks make by the Japanese Prime
    Minister about Blacks. 

    _karen

    The econimic aid to Israel was forced upon Germany as part of the
    War crimes.  The Japanese have a gun to their heads held by the
    Arabs (oil).
    
    One might argue that Mercedes Benz was opportunitistic during the
    war (I wouldn't) but the VW was thought up by Hitler.  The don't
    call it Peoples Car for nothing.  If people aren't familiar with
    the history of VolkesWagen, I will add it as a note.
    
    Also there is a brand of farm equipment sold in the US (it may be
    manufactured here) call by three initials ?M? (maybe HMK) where
    the M stands for Mengale and is owned by the doctor's family (Not
    his son).   

    I WOULD LIKE TO MAKE SOME COMMENTS ABOUT ALL THIS. THEY WILL COME
    IN NO PARTICULAR ORDER, SO I WILL APOLOGIZE AHEAD OF TIME FOR THE
    RAMBLING.
    
    UNLESS MY WIFE AND I DECIDE TO TRY FOR A SON(OUR 2ND DAUGHTER WAS
    BORN MONDAY) MY FAMILY NAME DIES WITH ME. I AM THE LAST MALE MEMBER
    OF MY FAMILY. ALL THE RELATIVES I HAD IN EUROPE WERE KILLED EITHER
    DIRECTLY BY @$%(()*, OR DIED DURING THE FIGHTING FOR ONE REASON OR
    ANOTHER. MY SISTER WILL NOT BUY ANYTHING SHE KNOWS TO BE GERMAN,
    OR CONTAIN GERMAN PARTS; NOR WILL SHE SET FOOT IN GERMANY(SHE HAS
    ALREADY REROUTED A TRIP THAT WOULD HAVE REQUIRED HER PLANE
    TO LAND IN GERMANY FOR A TRANSFER). I HOWEVER DON'T FEEL THIS WAY,
    BUT I DO UNDERSTAND HER FEELINGS AND NEVER CRITICIZE HER OR ANYONE
    ELSE WHO FEELS THIS WAY, AS IT IS A VERY PERSONAL CHOICE A JEW MUST
                                        ====
    MAKE. (BTW I KNOW NON-JEWS WHO LOST FAMILY MEMBERS WHO FEEL SIMILARLY)

    MY REASON FOR NOT WANTING TO BOYCOTT GERMANY IS THAT AT THE MOMENT
    IT LOOKS LIKE GERMANY MIGHT BE ISRAELS "BEST FRIEND" IN THE WORLD,
    AS THE GERMAN GOVERNMENT IS VERY CONCERNED ABOUT APPEARANCES. I
    WOULD LIKE TO ENCOURAGE THIS BECAUSE NOTHING CAN JOIN PEOPLE (OR
    IF HANDLED IMPROPERLY DRIVE THEM FURTHER APART) THAN ECONOMICS AND
    TRADE (PART OF #%$&^%'S ATTRACTION WAS HIS PROMISE OF PROSPERITY,
    AND CONSIDERING WHAT THE ALLIES HAD DONE TO GERMANY AFTER WWI IT
    SHOULD HAVE BEEN EXPECTED). BY ATTACHING A BOYCOTT TO AN ISSUE
    SUCH AS GERMAN ATTROCITIES YOU DON'T JUST KEEP REMINDING PEOPLE
    OF WHAT HAPPENED, BUT YOU ALSO BUILD UP RESENTMENT IN THE GERMAN
    PEOPLE BECAUSE YOU HURT THEM IN THE POCKETBOOK.
    
    PLEASE UNDERSTAND I DON'T WANT ANYONE TO FORGET WHAT HAPPENED, BECAUSE
    I DON'T WANT ANYTHING LIKE IT TO HAPPEN AGAIN. AND IT CAN HAPPEN
    AGAIN, EVEN HERE IN THE U.S. THERE ARE ENOUGH PEOPLE FULL OF HATE
    AND LOOKING FOR A SCAPEGOAT FOR THEIR PROBLEMS, THAT IT COULD HAPPEN.

    THE YAD VASHEM (NEVER AGAIN) MEMORIAL IN ISRAEL HAD A VERY STRONG
    EFFECT ON ME, THAT WE SHOULD NOT LET THE WORLD FORGET, FOR IT WAS
    THE ENTIRE WORLD, NOT ONLY GERMANY THAT LET THE HOLOCAUST HAPPEN.
    FLEEING PEOPLE BEING SENT BACK TO EUROPE FROM THE U.S., BRITAIN NOT
    ALLOWING IMMIGRATION TO PALESTINE, THE COLLABORATORS IN FRANCE,...

    ARE WE GOING TO CONDEMN EVERYONE OR WORK TO PREVENT IT FROM HAPPENING
    AGAIN TO ANYONE ELSE. WE HAVE ALREADY FAILED TO PREVENT IT IN UGANDA,
    CAMBODIA, AND OTHER PLACES AROUND THE WORLD.
    
    ONE WAY TO DISCOURAGE IT IS FOR PEOPLE TO NOT GO MEEKLY TO THE
    SLAUGHTER. I CAN'T HELP WONDERING IF THE PENTAGON CONSULTANT (CAN'T
    REMEMBER HIS NAME-- GROTTESSHILLER??) FROM THE BOOK "FAIL-SAFE"
    WASN'T RIGHT WHEN HE SAID THAT NOT MANY SS WOULD HAVE CONTINUED TO
    RUN EAGERLY UP THE STEPS TO ROUND UP JEWS IF THEY HAD BEEN MET WITH
    GUNS, KNIVES OR EVEN BROOMSTICKS. DON'T SIT BACK WHEN YOU GET STEPPED
    ON, FIGHT BACK.(THIS FROM SOMEONE WHO WANTS GUN SALES STRICTLY CONTROLLED,
    SO PLEASE DON'T TAKE ME LITERALLY ABOUT THE USE OF WEAPONS, I MEAN
    DON'T BE COMPLACENT AND DONT' THINK IT CAN'T HAPPEN HERE.)
    
    SOMEONE IN ONE THE PREVIOUS REPLIES MADE A COMMENT THAT MADE ME
    THINK OF MY DEFINITIONS OF PREJUDICE AND BIGOTRY. PREJUDICES ARE
    THINGS THAT WE ALL FEEL. IT IS AN IRRATIONAL BELIEF ABOUT A GROUP
    OF PEOPLE OR EVEN ABOUT OBJECTS. THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN PREJUDICE
    AND BIGOTRY IS THAT WHEN YOU ARE PREJUDICED YOU JUDGE THE GROUP
    BUT CAN ACCEPT AN INDIVIDUAL ON HIS/HER/ITS OWN MERITS, A BIGOT
    CANNOT. A BIGOT HATES AND IS INTOLERANT OF AN INDIVIDUAL BEFORE THEY
    EVEN MEET. I HOPE WE CAN ALL ACCEPT OUR OWN AND OTHER PEOPLES
    PREJUDICES, BUT DON'T ACCEPT BIGOTRY AND HATE. IT ONLY LEADS TO
    MISERY.
    
    I'LL END WITH A PROVERB THAT I HEARD A FEW YEARS AGO.
    "LET THE MAN WHO SEEKS REVENGE DIG TWO GRAVES."
    
    
    
    
          

    I HAVE BEEN THE PROUD OWNER OF TWO AMERICAN MADE CARS(1963, 1968 IMPALAs),
    AND THE PROUD OWNER OF TWO JAPANESE CARS(1976 COROLLA, 1986 CAMRY).
    I HAVE ALSO OWNED A 1980 DATSUN, AND OWN A 1984 DODGE WHICH I WOULD
    HAVE PREFERED TO USE AS BOWTIES FOR THEIR DESIGNERS.
    
    THE POINT IS THAT ANYONE CAN MAKE GARBAGE AND QUALITY PRODUCTS.
    AMERICAN MANUFACTURERS AND INDUSTRIES JUST GOT MORE COMFORTABLE WITH
    THEIR LEADS IN TECHNOLOG AND MARKET SHARES AND DIDN'T THINK ANYONE
    COULD BEAT UP ON THEM, AND SO LET THE JAPANESE IN PARTICULAR AND THE
    GERMANS TO A LESSER EXTENT TAKE OVER OUR MARKETS WITH MORE CONSISTENT
    QUALITY AND SOMETIMES BETTER PRICES.
    
    WHEN I BOUGHT MY CAMRY I WANTED TO BUY AN AMERICAN CAR, BUT COULD
                             ====== 
    NOT JUSTIFY IT ON ANY BASIS FOR WHAT I FELT I WANTED IN QUALITY,
    RELIABILITY OR PRICE. THIS YEAR I WILL PROBABLY BUY A MINIVAN, AND
    BASED ON WHAT IS AVAILABLE I WILL PROBBALY BUY A DODGE OR CHRYSLER.
    THEY HAVE EARNED BY THEIR ATTENTION TO THE MARKET MY ATTENTION IN
    MAKING A PURCHASE.
    
    THE WORST THINMG WE COULD DO NOW FOR OUR INDUSTRIES IS TO LET THEM
    GET SLOPPY AGAIN, JUST WHEN SOME ARE ACTUALLY RECOVERING AND BEING
    ABLE TO COMPETE AGAIN(NO SMALL HELP FROM THER $s DECLINE IN VALUE).
    
    FORCE THE AMERICAN MANUFACTURERS TO EARN YOUR PATRONAGE OF THEIR
    PRODUCTS. DEMAND THAT THEY WORK, THAT THEY ARE SAFE AND THAT THE
    ARE AFFORDABLE. DEMAND IT BY PURCHASING GOODS THAT MEET YOUR NEEDS
    AND MAYBE EVEN TELL THE CAR SALEMAN WHY YOU DIDN'T BUY HIS CAR,
    BUT GOT A COMPETITORS.

    Should we boycott American cars because of what the United States
    has done to teh American Indians?

    Re: .48
    
 >  Should we boycott American cars because of what the United States
 >  has done to teh American Indians?
    
    I don't believe that anyone can seriously compare what the U.S.
    has done to the Indians to what the Germans did to the Jewish people.
    Historically there have been many nations who have been quite
    unfriendly to Jews (Spain and Russia for example), but nothing can
    compare to the cruel, sadistic, and subhuman manner in which the
    Germans attempted to implament their "final solution".
    
    On the other hand, if you (or any one else fopr that matter) feels
    so strongly against the U.S. to the extent that you would not want
    to use U.S. products then don't.
    
    Cb.
    
    

    re: -1
    
    Chaim,
    
    Don't underestimate what was done to the American indians or any
    other people who suffered oppression.  Sometimes we Jews tend to
    think of ourselves as being singled out for oppression, but
    (unfortunately) we have company in this regard.
    
    David

    Chrysler didn't make the rifles that helped exterminate the American
    Indians.  Daimler-Benz DID kill Jews by using them as slave laborers.
    The whole German industrial complex actively supported the Nazis
    in their policy of exterminating Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, and
    those who disagreed with them politically.
    
    BTW, there are Jews who won't buy Ford products because of Henry
    Ford's anti-semitism.

    Re: .50
    
    David,
    
    I didn't mean to underestimate anything that has been done to any
    people who have suffered oppression. However, I believe that things
    should be viewed in the correct perspective. 
    
    I was merely trying to point out that the actions of the Germans was 
    unparalleled in all of history, and I hope it remains that way. 
    What happened to the Jewish people, and BTW the Gypsies as well, at
    the hands of the Germans was much more than oppression. It was an
    attempt at total annihilation carried out in the most atrocious
    and inhuman manner. The Germans planned, executed, and documented
    these acts in the most proficient and cold blooded fashion. 
    
    I rest my case...
    
    Cb.
    
    

    The Amerindians not only suffered massive loss of life and their
    homeland, but the fabric of their society, their culture and their
    religious structure was destroyed as well.  While the activities of
    the European colonizers in America may not have been as consciously
    malevolent as the Germans', the results were worse for the victims, I
    think.
    

There are a few differences, though perhaps fewer than one might hope.

-- The Germans carried out their plan as an intentional part of
   their political philosophy: they attacked Jews in all the occupied
   countries, and tried to get their allies (Japan, for example) to
   exterminate its Jewish population.  "The only good Indian is a dead
   Indian" was never a matter of state policy, nor did the United States
   government ever ask  say, Canada to exterminate its Indian population.

-- It was impossible for Jews to "assimilate," whereas some of the Indian
   oppressors would boast of their 1/4 Cherokee ancestry.  A Christian
   with 1/4 Jewish ancestry was considered Jewish by the German authorities.

-- The Jews were attacked for what they *were*, while the Indians
   were attacked for the land they possessed.  They were also seen
   as foreign nations at war with the American government.  Treaties
   were signed and some semblence of self-government was established
   among the tribes.

Martin.

    Re: .53
    
>        The Amerindians not only suffered massive loss of life and their
>    homeland, but the fabric of their society, their culture and their
>    religious structure was destroyed as well.  While the activities of
>    the European colonizers in America may not have been as consciously
>    malevolent as the Germans', the results were worse for the victims, I
>    think.

    Perhaps the victims themselves are to be credited with this result.
    I don't believe that the Americans at that time were cognizantly
    trying to wipe out the Indian culture. All they wanted was the land.
        
    But again, if American Indians feel strongly about not using U.S.
    products, then more power to them.
    
    Cb.

    re: .52
    
    I'm a child of a survivor, so I'm not coming at this subject from
    an alien perspective.  However I will give the Germans "points"
    for planning, proficiency, and documentation.  But as far as 
    cold-blood is concerned they merely share the title.
    
    David

    
    Let's not forget the muder parties that the early Australian settlers
    used to have with the aborigines. Whole villages were wiped out
    for fun. And they weren't just killed either. They were literally
    tortured to death. And all this happened before the 20th century.
    
    Paul V

    Re: .56
    
    I agree with that.
    
    Re. .57
    
    I'm not trying to say that what the Australian settlers did was
    nice. In fact it was downright abominable. However, I doubt that
    the Australian settlers held sessions of government and passed laws
    and regulations as to how, when, and by whom these attrocities were
    to be carried out. I doubt whether the existence of Aboriginies
    in other parts of the world meant anything to them. The Germans
    wanted to annihilate ALL the Jews in the world. The ultimate German
    plans were to annihilate the Jews in every country that would have
    been conquered. Had Hitler won the war and had his way there would
    be no Jewish people left today (of course this hypothesis is absurd
    in light of G-d's promise to Avraham, Yitchak, and Yaakov -- but
    that has no bearing on what he wanted). 
    
    Again, I think that many people are too hasty in trying to compare
    events; past, present, and future; to what the Germans did. Each
    event must be seen in its perspective.
    
    Cb.
   

    In now why am I trying to disagree with the prior noters who are
    against buying German products.  I can understand the emotion that
    is behind it.  I would, however like to point out another aspect
    of this situation and that is buying German products versus buying
    Japanese products.
    
    What the Germans did was indescribable, reprehensible, etc. but
    the worst of it occurred over 40 years ago.  Today Germany is a
    trading partner and a supporter of Israel.  Whether this is out
    of guilt or because they are compelled to by treaty is not the issue.
     They do trade with Israel, pay reparations and otherwise support
    Israel.
    
    Japan, on the other hand, has far less trade with Israel.  I believe
    Subaru is the only Japanese car available in Israel.  Japan has
    openly sided with the Arabs so they don't jeapordize their oil supplies
    even though the U.S. has assurred Japan that it wouldn't let that
    happen.  In addition, according to last Sunday's L.A. Times magazine
    section article, there is currently much anti-semitism in Japan.
    
    While it is true that the Japanese did not exterminate the Jews
    the way the Germans did, I wonder if that wasn't because they didn't
    have the opportunity.  However, today, the Japanese, buy their selfish
    actions are showing how they really feel about Israel and the Jewish
    people, while the Germans, for whatever reason are trying to make
    amends.
    
    So who is worse?  Whose cars shouldn't we buy?
    

    
    re.58
    
    Yes, you're right of course. The holocaust does stand out on its
    own in history. Although saying that, there was the state sponsored
    persecution and murder of Christians by Nero, but again, I don't
    think it was as malevolent (that I know of) as Adolf's Final Solution.

    Paul V

 > the Japanese, by their selfish actions are showing how they really
 > feel about Israel and the Jewish people, 

    Actually, I think they're showing how they feel about money.  Most of
    the Arab nations won't deal with a company that sells in Israel (unless
    they decide they really want to, anyway); together, those countries make
    up a bigger market than Israel alone.

    Beverly

    RE: -1
    
    Your contention that the motivation is purely financial does not
    account for the popularity of anti-Jewish literature in Japan at
    this time.

    re: .62
    
    Can you get back to this conference with some further evidence of
    anti-semitism in Japan?  I wouldn't oversimplify, but I wouldn't
    fly off the handle either.
    
    David

    Re .62:

    Sorry, I wasn't trying to imply that Japan has no anti-Semitism; I

    don't have any information on that one way or the other.  I just meant 
    to point out that it wasn't *necessarily* the motivation behind selling 
    to the Arab countries instead of Israel.  Whether or not the Japanese 
    are anti-Semitic, they definitely are interested in making a profit.

    Of course, they may be pleased that greater profit lies where it does...

    Beverly

   Re .63:
    
    June 12 LA Times Magazine Section has an article about a Japanese
    Author married to an American Jew.  It discusses the alleged
    anti-semitic book that she wrote and the awards that she won for
    it in Japan.  It was her contention that the contents of the book
    that were said to be anti-semitic were in reality "jokes".  Per
    the authoritative sources that read the book and were quoted in
    the articel, they didn't sound like "jokes" to me.
    
    What's more serious than just one author writing one anti-semitic
    book is that she was given awards from Japan's literary organizations
    and that the book has been very popular in Japan.
    
    BTW, I agree that finances are a great motivator for Japan to trade
    with the Arabs to the almost exclusion of Israel, but I find it
    interesting that you can buy a Mercedes Benz in both Israel and
    the Arab countries.  It appears that the Arabs will make exceptions
    when it suits them.
    

    Re:.66          
    
    I believe that any Jew that after WWII willingly elected to live
    in Germany and share his life, culture and living with the same
    people that just a few years earlier deprived him from his right
    to live is absolutely contemptible and immoral.
    
    I don't pray for revengeance or for hate, even more so 40 years
    later, when I might be hurting children that were born after the
    War and the Holocaust, I do not want to hurt those germans that
    fought more or less actively the Nazis, but I do not have to share
    with Germany my Life and I do not want to contribute to her progress
    and growth.
    
    If Jewes want to look for the "Sir Ha-Basar" (the meat casserole,
    the earthly well-being) is up to them, there are many Galuyoth
    available, they do not have to live in Germany.
    
    (My opinion)
    
    Juan-Carlos Kiel
    Herzliya, Israel

>    If Jewes want to look for the "Sir Ha-Basar" (the meat casserole,
>    the earthly well-being) is up to them, there are many Galuyoth
>    available

You're absolutely correct Juan.  Many of them are conveniently 
located throughout much of Israel.  (It's nice that we don't have 
to leave the country anymore to enjoy those good ol' meat 
casseroles!)

    Just a few nits...
    
    If you go back to the early replies from our now-departed Motti
    The Moderator, himself a Japanophile, you'll notice that Japan is
    not really rife with anti-Semitism.  Indeed I suspect that they
    have had so little contact with Jews that the bulk of people,
    notwithstanding the neo-Tojoists, consider anti-Semitism as foreign
    an ideology as, say, the Mayan pyramid-builders.  (Funny thing about
    the Tojo family.  The old man was Mr. Axis.  But nowadays, Subarus
    are about the only Japanese cars to defy the Arabs, right?  Guess
    whose son is president of the company who makes Subys.  (If I am
    not confusing my Japanese car companies.))
    
    And West Germany was to some extent de-Nazified after the war, so the
    anti-Nazi elements were put into power and still control most things.
    A certain "Eastern Reich" (to crudely translate), however, was never
    de-Nazified.  Not to mention which same country Hitler himself came
    from, and it's not called "Germany". 

    Re. .67
    
    If your contention that 40 years makes a difference (and perhaps
    it does especially in light of the fact that a ban that had been
    imposed against Spain subsequent to the Spanish Inquisition was later
    rescinded) and that today's Germans are not the Germans of 40 years
    ago, then who cares what Galuth a person chooses. Your arguements
    are somewhat contradictory.
    
    Cb.

    re: "meat casseroles"
    
    I hate to inject a point of diction into this discussion but I feel
    forced to.  "Sir-Habasar" does not translate to meat casserole but
    rather to "flesh-pot".  This is the correct terminology, and it
    can be backed up by referring to your Alcalay and any
    fire-and-brimstone Christian preacher (you know contrasting Jesus
    and the world around him).
    
    David