Conference taveng::bagels

    Yes?  What's your point, Michael?  

	
	You mean I have to make a point,  Oy !

	I was noting, in RAINBO::WOMANNOTES, the
	similarity of the basis for SEXISM and RACISM.

	Michael

    Hoo boy.  At considerable risk (some one is going to mis-read this)
    to the lack of flames in Bagels, I would like to put my view on
    record: what is "bad" is not racism nor sexism nor any kind of
    prejudice.  What is bad is real physical harm done to people.
    
    A prejudice is a time saver for the person who has it.  It may lead
    to reduced pleasure in life (the belief that "Japanese cars are crap"
    leading to never driving a Japanese car), but it is not morally
    wrong.  No one can take the time to judge each individual case on
    its merits.  "I like oranges" is a prejudice of mine: some oranges are
    not good, but it saves me time when I'm buying fruit at Purity Supreme.
    
    A person who believes that "Jews are misers" is going to be right
    sometimes, and wrong others.  It's his loss.  But unless he hurts
    someone, you have no right to sic the law on him.  Similiarly for
    all the other "-ism"s.

    I recognize that I am at odds with the EEO laws here.  But laws have
    been wrong before.
    
    So....what's the point of all this?
    
    Let's have no "ism"-bashing here.  Talking about racists and sexists
    as in the abstracted note is blaming abstract groups for abstract
    sins.  If you wish to blame people, use real groups and real sins,
    ok?
    				-John Bishop
    
    P.S.  In another notes file far away, I once tried to explain that
          drunk driving is not in itself a bad thing, the damage and
          the deaths are the bad thing.  So other solutions beside "stop
          drunks from driving" should be looked at.  But all I got was
          responses of the order "If your mother had died you wouldn't
          say that".  This is not to the point.  If I were deeply involved
          emotionally, I would not be rational--this is true.  But that
          does not contradict what I said.  So please, think before
          you flame!

	Boy, this has got to be the winner for the note
	with the most vague replies !

	8-}
	

	

    I'm a moderator of the notesfile (OPHION::) BLACKNOTES (as well as
    being a member and active reader of BAGELS). Recently there's been a
    lot of discussion in BLACKNOTES of topics that I think would interest
    members of this notesfile. Things like Israel's relationship to South
    Africa, Israeli treatment of the Falashas, Minister Louis Farrakahn and
    anti-semitism. I don't consider myself qualified to reply knowledgably
    to some of the mis-information I've seen, so please consider this an
    invitation to participate. I would appreciate it if people would try to
    keep calm, though I understand that some of the remarks have been
    inflammatory,  I personally would appreciate it if people took this as
    an opportunity to open some minds rather than an opportunity to flame.
    
    	Thanks,
    	-- Charles

    I've just returned from a trip to that file.

    Frankly, i'm amazed that many of the notes in that
    file are STILL there and are remeniscient of old
    SOAPBOX's.

    If someone put a note here in BAGELS stating that:

    "You know how x's take care of x's [wink, nod]"

    it would be deleted immediately and the author warned.

    I'm disenchanted to read such crap and disinformation
    about Judaism and Israel and thanful that people like
    Kathy Rosenbluh have the patience to read and reply
    to it.

    I'm one of the moderators of that file, so I thought I'd explain
    why those notes are still there. The policy of that file, as clearly
    stated in the introductory notes, is that no note will be deleted
    without the author's permission, and no note will be set hidden without
    explanation to the author.
    
    Also clearly spelled out in the  introductory note, is the method
    for resolving conflicts about "offensive" notes. NO ONE HAS USED
    THAT MECHANISM. If you Michael, think those notes should be hidden,
    then please follow the procedure outlined in BLACKNOTES 1.0. Start
    by sending the moderators a message saying you find the notes
    offensive. I believe in freedom of expression, I believe the right
    way to handle prejudice is education not supression. I decline to
    censor views I personally find offensive, instead I invited response
    by people I trusted to be both knowledgable and levelheaded.
    
    Forbidding the expression of anti-semitic views will not cure
    anti-semitism, if anything it will inflame it. Not every anti-semite
    is an enemy, some are merely deluded and ignorant. There are some
    rabid anti-semites, and they deserve nothing but contempt and adamant
    resistance, others are open to reason.
    
    I'm not familiar with the Jewish role in civil rights in America,
    but I was under the impression that it was something to be proud of.
    Can't we emphasize these positive things rather than simply denying
    the negative?
    
    	-- Charles
                 

    
    I'm not offended Charles, I faced [and I mean FACE TO FACE]
    Anti_semites before, just that I don't think DIGITAL's
    ENET is a place to leave that lying around.  You'd be
    awfuly surprised how far reaching this is.  You can
    also be assured that not EVERYONE takes Digital P&P
    serisouly by NOT letting these notes reach outside.

    Think of the affect it has upon Digital as a company.

    This is not a street/private situation so I am not
    going to voice my opinion to the moderators of the file.
    I just won't read it.  The way things are stated in
    BLACKNOTES in that particular note [and others just starting]
    leads me to believe that people are just using
    that 'safe ground' to shoot arrows and are NOT open to
    rational explanation.

    If you were a salesperson and someone came to you and
    said:

    "I'm interested in learning about this color Hitachi."

    You'd be inclined to help them learn what you know about
    the television.

    If they come to you an say:

    "That Hitachi is a piece of crap and I know others
    who feel the same way."

    It does alot to remove the wind from the sails
    of initiative, doesn't it?

    I still beleive that discussion rather than censorship is better.
    I would like to thank Charles for taking the time to not only point
    out that we might be interested in contributing to that notesfile,
    but furthermore if you read some of his entries you will find him
    a moderating influence in that file. I have tried to answer one
    note (37.2) which started out with a discussion on Minister Farrakhan
    and then got somewhat confusing as the 28 replies focused on Jewish
    attempts at denigrating him, not to mention our friend from days
    past Tarek Sadat somehow got wind of that file and entered his two
    cents in that discussion.
    I do beleive that the notesfiles are or rather should be a good
    medium to not only exchange views with those you agree but also
    take the time to explain to certain people some of the misconceptions
    they might have not only about us but what we may have about them.
    It may not do much, but I still feel it's better than sitting back
    and saying it's a waste of time. I feel any discussion is better
    than none at all.
    Once again I would like to thank Charles for having taken the time
    to point his notesfile out.
                      Greg