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Conference taveng::bagels

Title:BAGELS and other things of Jewish interest
Notice:1.0 policy, 280.0 directory, 32.0 registration
Moderator:SMURF::FENSTER
Created:Mon Feb 03 1986
Last Modified:Thu Jun 05 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:1524
Total number of notes:18709

676.0. "Need some assistance" by MUTHA::STARIN () Fri Mar 31 1989 15:27

    I need some help in trying to understand what appears to be a dichotomy
    with regard to the Jewish concept of G_d. In "The Nine Questions
    People Ask About Judaism", the authors point out that G_d has no
    physical qualities. They also cite the third of Maimonides's Thirteen
    Principles of Jewish Faith. Yet I read in "Jewish Legends" in the
    introduction about several references in the midrash concerning
    Exodus, the Psalms, and Zechariah where G_d does some very physical
    things (like standing and sitting).
    
    My question is: if He has no physical qualities, how could He sit
    or stand? Could it be that the sages gave G_d human attributes in
    the midrashim in order to help others understand the nature of G_d?
    
    Thanks.
    
    Regards,
    
    Mark
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676.1It is a good question (which I can't answer)YOUNG::YOUNGFri Mar 31 1989 16:287
    It's more complicated than that.  We were created in G_d's image.
    And while most references to G_d are masculine, some are feminine.
    
    I think this is one of the advantages of being omnipotent.
    
    				Paul
    
676.2We're all Perplexed!BMT::STEINBERGFri Mar 31 1989 16:5116
    	Excellent question. Maimonides dealt extensively with this issue
    (practically the entire first half of the "Guide for the Perplexed"),
    and in essence, he shows how each and every reference to physical
    attributes in G-d are what are called "anthropomorphisms", or as
    you put it, a way for mortals to visualize in some way what G-d
    is in our own human terms. Apparently, some of his contemporaries
    were not of that opinion, and that was one of the principle reasons
    he wrote the "thirteen principles of faith", which has since become
    universally accepted as the basis for our belief system.
    	In fact, not only does G-d not have physical attributes, He
    does not even have moral attributes (loving-kindness,long-suffering,
    merciful,etc.). These traits, described in the Bible are also
    anthropomorphic in nature, His attributes being impossible for us
    to fully comprehend.
    	What it boils down to, to oversimplify, is that G-d exists in
    non-physical form, and He is the essence of good. 
676.3AnthropomorphismRABBIT::SEIDMANAaron SeidmanFri Mar 31 1989 17:1722
   >          Could it be that the sages gave G_d human attributes in
   >the midrashim in order to help others understand the nature of G_d?

    Yes.

    You must also keep in mind that our conception of the divine has
    evolved over the millennia; even today, we retain some of these
    anthropomorphisms.  For instance, when you write:

   >My question is: if He has no physical qualities, how could He sit
   >or stand?

    you use the male pronoun.  Why not She, or It? (That's a rhetorical
    question.)

    The Amidah prayer begins with reference to the "God of Abraham, the
    God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob" rather than "God of Abraham, Isaac,
    and Jacob."  The traditional explanation for this is that God meant
    something different to each of the patriarchs and that even in our own
    lives, our concept of the divine changes over time.

    Aaron
676.4Much ObligedMUTHA::STARINFri Mar 31 1989 17:555
    Thanks to everyone who responded!
    
    Regards,
    
    Mark
676.5An aside...KIRKWD::FRIEDMANMon Apr 03 1989 19:175
    You assert that God is perfectly good and that he is omnipotent.
    He caused (or allowed) the Armenian earthquake that killed many
    people.  He doesn't sound so "good" in my book.  How does Judaism
    explain the existence of natural disasters and innocent babies
    that suffer and die because of congenital deformalities?
676.6re: .5 - See Note 639.*RABBIT::SEIDMANAaron SeidmanTue Apr 04 1989 21:220
676.7Bad things ... Good PeopleBMT::STEINBERGWed Apr 12 1989 19:0723
    Re: .5
    
    I think your questions are valid, and I don't know if anyone has
    definitive answers.Even if they claimed to, your tone implies that
    you are really asking in a rhetorical sense.
    	Nevertheless, philosophers throughout the ages have struggled
    with every fiber in their collective beings to deal with these
    issues.
    	I feel that "evil" in the world falls into two categories:
    A) Man-made tragedy.
    B) "Natural" disasters.
    	I sense that you understand that these are very different issues,
    in that your question addressed only the latter. Does this imply
    that you understand why G-d allows evil to be perpetrated by Man?
    	I think that in order to effectively deal with this subject,
    we  must  start  on  common  ground.  If  I  start  out  with
    the position that there are serious issues in the world, and I cannot
    hope to understand everything, then there is a basis for discussion.
    If, on the other hand, my position is that there are issues which
    do not make sense to me, and therefore "There is no law and there
    is no Judge", the debate comes to a screeching halt.
    	So let's continue the dialogue with an open mind, hopefully
    without any prejudices.