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Conference taveng::bagels

Title:BAGELS and other things of Jewish interest
Notice:1.0 policy, 280.0 directory, 32.0 registration
Moderator:SMURF::FENSTER
Created:Mon Feb 03 1986
Last Modified:Thu Jun 05 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:1524
Total number of notes:18709

652.0. "TRADITIONAL JEWISH MEALS" by SNOC01::HUGHES () Fri Mar 03 1989 04:08

    As a new noter, this is my first attempt to post a note in any
    conference.   My apologies if I inadvertantly break any conventions.
    
    I am involved with a very active and succesful youth movement in
    my local Catholic parish (ages 16-22), and we were thinking of trying
    to organise some kind of traditional Jewish meal around Easter time
    - unfortunately our knowledge and experience of Jewish practice
    and customs is woefully inadequate.
    
    What we had in mind was to encourage discussion about Old Testament
    traditions, and as the Passover is closely connected with Easter
    this seemed an ideal time.
    
    Because of our state of lack of knowledge, we would not attempt
    anything too deep, but hopefully we can prompt our youth into some
    further research and enquiry.
    
    I would appreciate some advice on the main features of such a meal,
    i.e. what type of food would be served, any special prayers or readings
    or any other liturgical actions and if possible a brief explanation
    of the significance of each item.   I seem to recall that the youngest
    member of the family had a role in asking questions from the eldest.
    
    Thanks in advance for your help.
    
    
    
    Vince Hughes - Sydney Australia.
    
                                                                  
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652.1The fifth answerTSE::POLIKOFFNorth Central MassachusettsFri Mar 03 1989 14:1314
    	As a start, go to any Jewish book store and purchase a Passover
    Hagoda ( sp ) or go to any Temple and ask to borrow a Hagoda. This
    small book has all the answers to your questions. The answers to
    the 4 questions that you mentioned are answered as part of the ritual
    and it specifically states who, what, why, when and where. This
    is because our forefathers and G-d wanted to make sure that Jews
    always observed Passover exactly the same way for ever.
    	Many Churches have Passover Seders because the Last Supper was
    when Jesus and his Disciples observed the Passover Seder. One of
    the errors in Leonardo's painting is that the matzos is not shown.
    I guess Leonardo's mother never bought any matzos at the Via del
    Stop and Shop in Venice :*)

    					Arnie
652.2we run a community "model seder"CADSYS::RICHARDSONFri Mar 03 1989 15:2378
    I don't know about in Australia, but in the US, anyways, a lot of
    liberal Jewish congregations run "community seders" in the weeks right
    before Passover (usually Easter falls during Passover; this year is
    unusual in that Easter is one lunar month too early; I guess the
    Christian liturgical calendar does not completely follow the Jewish
    lunar calendar, but I don't know if this happens every time the month
    of Adar is doubled, as it is this year - the other effect of the
    calendar skew is that Christmas falls during Passover rather than after
    it, by the way).  Our schul does this.  Paul and I have helped with
    these in the past (when it is not TOO close to Passover so that it
    interferes with our Passover preparations).  Sometimes they have even
    been held at one of the local churches, and most of the people who come
    are interested non-Jewish people, and quite a few of the local clergy.
    The Reform movement prints an abbreviated Haggadah for use at these (it
    has greatly abbreviated the answer to the "four questions" - otherwise
    the model seder would take as long as a real seder, and we wouldn't see
    too many folks come back the next year!).  So, you might try contacting
    a local liberal Jewish congregation; their youth group might be
    interested in helping, for example.  (I've been saying "liberal" here
    because I don't know if a more traditional synagogue would be
    interested in such an event; I don't know for sure that they would
    refuse to help you out, but I think you will get a more sympathetic
    response from a liberal group - maybe because I myself am a liberal.)
    Even if they aren't, the rabbi can reccomend some books for your youth
    group to look at, and suggest a suitable Hagaddah.
    
    Apart from the ritual food items that are actually part of the
    religious aspect of the Passover seder ceremony itself, in the middle
    of the seder a real (usually pretty lavish) meal is served.  There
    aren't any real requirements on the food served other than that it has
    to be acceptable for Passover (ie, nothing made from flour except for
    matzoh and its derivatives, and no other grains or grain products -
    which to most Jews of Eastern European extraction also includes
    legumes, with the exception of peanut oil).  The meal would
    traditionally include matzoh-ball soup, roast chicken or turkey and
    brisket of beef, various vegetables (not beans, peans, lentils, etc. -
    and of course no grains like corn or rice), kugels (a sort of baked
    vegetable pudding - often made of potatoes or broccoli), and of course
    matzohs.  Any Jewish cookbook will have sample menus for the meal part
    of the seder.  Since the holiday celebrates freedom, a lavish meal is
    the right thing to serve.
    
    The ritual foods will be described in a Jewish cookbook, too, and
    include horseradish (a "bitter herb"), hardboiled eggs, parsley or
    boiled potatoes dipped in salt water, matzohs, charosses (a sort of
    fruit relish, usually made of chopped apples, nuts, cinnamon, and kosher
    wine, although sometimes other things such as dates or pears), and
    kosher wine (or grape juice).  There is also a roasted shankbone
    present, but not eaten.  The ritual foods are displayed on a special
    plate (a "seder plate") and are pointed out at the appropriate times
    during the ceremony (except for the matzohs, which have their own
    plate, divided up to hold three specially-designated matzohs that are
    part of the ceremony - some matzoh plates have three slots for these,
    but usually there is a cloth cover with three compartments).  Oh, some
    people will use Romaine lettuce in place of horseradish (well, it *is*
    somewhat bitter); I've been tempted for years to bring some Japanese
    green horseradish root (wasabi) and see if anyone can actually eat it
    grated up, but I am not positive it would be kosher (and I *know* *I*
    can't eat the required quantity of that stuff!!)  An extra cup of wine
    is set out for the prophet Elijah (Eliyahu, in Hebrew).  (I don't think
    I am forgetting any of the ritual foods, but I'm sure someone will
    correct me if I do.  I have amost terrible cold today and am only half
    here anyhow....)
    
    I'm sure your youth group will find researching this very interesting!
    
    /Charlotte
    
    PS-
    By the way, I am reasonably convinced that what we eat these days for
    matzohs are nothing like the original sort of unleavened bread that
    would have been eaten on the way out of Egypt.  It takes modern
    machinery and very fast work, and very hot ovens, to make the
    cracker-like things we eat today.  The original was probably more like
    pita bread that did not have time to rise - sort of like a heavy cake.
    So maybe paintings of the Christian "last supper" are not as
    unreasonable as they look compared to a seder today.
         
652.3Such a deal I have for you!YOUNG::YOUNGFri Mar 03 1989 16:096
    By the way, Charlotte (CADSYS::RICHARDSON) and I would be glad to
    come over and run a Seder for you, in English of course, if you
    will just pick up the airfare.
    
    				Paul
    
652.4Some more suggestionsRABBIT::SEIDMANAaron SeidmanMon Mar 06 1989 19:1510
    The New Union Haggadah, published by the U.S. Reform movement has a
    good (although short) historical introduction, explaining the evolution
    of the Seder and how it reached its present form.  There are also
    several traditional Haggadot with extensive commentary that would be
    useful sources for understanding how people have responded to the
    issues raised by the story of the exodus.  (I have some in mind, but
    can't recall the exact citations now--I'll try to remember to look them
    up and post them here.)

                                        Aaron
652.5Suggestions from a Jewish MotherSTEREO::LEVINEMon Mar 06 1989 20:0020
    May I add my recommendations to the prior ones?
    
    You signed that you are in Sydney, Australia.  To my recollection
    (from family members who have visited there) Sydney is a VERY large
    city, with a good sized Jewish community..Kosher butchers,  Synagogues,
    Hebrew/Yiddish bookstores, etc. to say nothing of universities and
    libraries, Hillel Houses, and so on.  
    
    While we here in this Notes file could answer some of your questions,
    chances are that one answer will breed more questions....and by
    the time you get all your answers you will end up working for next
    year rather than for this year.  My suggestion is that you try
    contacting someone in your local area who could answer more of your
    questions in less time than we could.  And we could still be a 'back-up
    support' for you.  
    
    Good luck, and do let us know how you are making out.
    
    Regards,
    
652.6Thanks for your helpSNOC01::HUGHESTue Mar 07 1989 00:4820
    Many thanks for all your replies - you have certainly given me a
    direction to follow.
    
    I did briefly try to locate local Jewish communities, but found
    great difficulty in locating them through the telephone directory.
    
    When I enquired for the Haggadah, the local library referred me
    to a Synagogue who in turn put me in touch with a Jewish book store.
    I will try them at lunch time.
    
    Paul and Charlotte, it would be great to have you come over and
    help us personally - unfortunately the biggest fundraiser we have
    is a car washing day, and it would be a long wait for us to save up 
    the air-fare.
    
    Again, thanks for your help and I will post a note here to let you
    know how we go.
    
    Vince