Conference taveng::bagels

Don't feel bad Robin.

My father brought us to this country when I was Six years of age.  We
lived here Fitchburg/Leominster for over 18 years and never ever
celebrated Christmas.  Why.  Because its not our holiday.  

I would guess that over 60% of the people who do celebrate XMAS do not know the
full reason.

This is the time of year where I don't dare go shopping for anything because
people are so dam rude.  But I like to get out and see the wonderful lights 
that people hang outside their homes.   

\Sultan

    You may want to find a close friend and share the holidays of both
    Chanuaka and Christmas. You may find yourself rather enjoying this
    time of year in the spirit of sharing the holidays between friends.
    
    I do it every year. Our close friends (or better said our extended
    family) celebrate each others holidays. We participate with them
    in the lighting of the Advent Wreath as well with they participate
    in lighting the lights of Chanuaka. We go so far as to even light
    the candles of the Advent Wreath with the light of the Chanuaka
    candles.(this given both times co-incide)
    
    It should also be pointed out that the term extended family that
    I used above are friends that we consider very close, not as one
    may expect as a mixed set of marriages in either my wife's or my
    own family.
    
    Try it you may find it can be avery special time of year.
    

    I grew up in Pennsylvania and New Jersey.  I hated Christmas, because I
    felt left out.  The Christian kids seemed to have a lot more fun with
    Christmas than I ever did with Channukah (mostly because my parents
    never took it seriously).
    
    I'm now married to a non-Jew, and we visit his family every year at
    Christmas.  It's fun in some ways, but also very depressing.  I hate
    the pervasiveness of it.  The decorations in the office really grate
    on my nerves, even if they're pretty.
    
    Beverly
    

    re: .1 & .3
    
    I understand how you both feel, I grew up in Boston, and somehow
    I've always felt drowned in the christmas hype.  My wife says that
    I make it out to be a personal attack on myself.  Personally I've
    toned down my criticisms in the last few years because I've had
    to keep reminding myself of what part of the world I'm living in.
    
    When I was in junior high I even attended the christmas play which
    was held during school hours.  Back then my consciousness was raised
    enough to ask out of attending.  As I reflect back upon it, the
    mistake was in being in the wrong school system, and not opting
    to go the school at Hebrew College.
    
    .1 reminds me of the persistant New Yorker's perception that the
    apple is the only center of Jewish life, and as if christmas isn't
    observed there.  Jewish culture has thrived in this area for many
    years before any arrival of "immigrants" from N.Y.  The difference
    is that we are a smaller community here, and more outnumbered than
    in New York.  By the way, Jews are still very much a minority in
    N.Y., it's just that there are higher concentrations of Jews there
    as opposed to anywhere else.
    
    The only place I ever gained a healthy respect for the christmas 
    holiday was in Israel.  If you were to be there now you'd hardly
    ever know that christmas was approaching.  I believe it is done
    in a much more sober and fitting manor as opposed to here.  The
    atmosphere is even much better for Christians, who also don't have
    wade through tons of advertising and hype.
    
    David 
    

    Christmas never bothered me.  When I was in grade school, there
    were two classes for each grade.  I remember that one class would
    do a Christmas play, and the other a Chanukah play.  It did not
    matter which religion you were, just what class you happened to
    be in.
    
    I enjoy some of the Christmas trappings, and dislike others.  Some
    of the music, such as the Boston Comarada stuff is wonderful.  The
    renditions of "Come all ye faithful" heard in department stores
    makes my stomach churn, but then all of that elevator music makes
    my stomach churn.  I like some of the neat light displays, and I
    think that the plastic Santas are generally horrible, just like
    the plastic flamingos.  When I hear a TV or radio advertisement
    suggisting I go into debt to buy presents, I think "Bah Humbug!".
    And I avoid certain stores this time of year, as I don't like crowds.
    
    My wife is bothered more by it, by everyone having something to
    celebrate except us.  That is not completely solvable, but we have
    taken to having a yearly party on the Sunday of Chanukah.  We invite
    lots of people, Jewish and non-Jewish, and have traditional Chanukah
    food as well as some other stuff (like apple strudel and Cheesecake).
    We ask that the Jewish people bring their menorahs, and at the right
    time we light them all on the kitchen table, making it truely a
    festival of lights.
    
    If it helps, you are hereby invited to the party.  Send me mail
    if you are interested, and I will send you more info and a map.
    
    				Paul
    

	What bothers  me  is the forced equivalence of Xmas and Chanukah
    "just  because"  they fell near the same time of year. Funny, no one
    ever  says  "Happy  New  Year"  on  Rosh  Hashanah...  Maybe "Valuin
    Differences" needs a kick in the tuchus.

    I was wondering if people of the Jewish faith try to be sensitive
    to people of the Christian Faith?... That is not meant to be sarcastic
    or whatever, just a question....  I know when "I learn" of things
    that bother Bob, the last thing I try to do is make him feel
    uncomfortable, just as your roomate asked you about the tree Michael...
    
    The reason for the question is because it REALLY bothers me when
    ANYONE types in Xmas instead of Christmas...  To Christians, Christmas
    is very important to them, as it is the day we celebrate the birth
    of Mary's son, who was later named Jesus. 
    
    When anyone writes or types in the word "Xmas", they are taking
    "Christ" out of Christmas, and it is taken as a slur to Christians...
    
    If no one pointed that out to you, you "probably" would not even
    have realized this... just as I don't realize a lot of things that
    pertain to Bob until he points them out to me...
    
    Please, don't type Xmas, it hurts to see this...
    
    Gale

    
    
    
    	I've seen Christmas spelled Xmas by Catholics on invitations
    and always thought it was Kosher.  As it were.
    
    

    Michael, Im glad I mentioned it then...
    
    Guess being a ministers daughter, I am overly sensitive to
    somethings... its just _important_ to me, as it is to many others...
    
    
    

    
    
    	Hey, ya live, ya loin.
    
    	Happy Tax Returns!
    
    

>    "just  because"  they fell near the same time of year. Funny, no one
>    ever  says  "Happy  New  Year"  on  Rosh  Hashanah...  Maybe "Valuin
>    Differences" needs a kick in the tuchus.

    I do try to wish Jewish friends a happy Rosh Hashanah. However,
    having (knowing !) very few Jewish friends it is easy to forget.
    
    re.9 (or was it 8 ?)
    
    Just because some people are deemed Catholic, that doesn't make
    them Christians. Same as many people over here would call themselves
    Church Of England, but again are not necessarily Christians.
    However, that's a bit of a rathole, so I'll say no more :-)
    
    Happy Chanukah all.
    
    Paul V

I'm also uncomfortable this time of the year.

Chanukah is not a major holiday.  There are no special services, just one
extra paragraph added to the regular liturgy.  We light candles, sing songs,
prepare potato pancakes and give *little* gifts to children.  And yet, many
Christians seem to make a big deal of Chanukah.  Why?

It seems there's an implicit _quid pro quo_ here.  Christians talk up
Chanukah and expect Jews to share in celebrating Christmas.  It's no 
theological skin off a Christian's teeth to sing about a military and 
political victory the Jews recorded two thousand years ago.  But joining in 
popular songs of praise to Jesus is anathema from a Jewish point of view.

I resent having Christmas shoved down my throat.  There are lots of
"holiday parties" around, and it's clear what holiday is really meant.  
Christmas is *not* our holiday, and it is *not* acceptable for Jews to 
celebrate it.

Having Chanukah acknowledged this time of year strikes me as a form of
tokenism.  I'd feel much more comfortable if I heard holiday greetings from
Christians on the more important Jewish holidays, like Pesach and Rosh 
HaShanah.  

There's a difference between *respecting* and *celebrating* the faith and 
holidays of another religion.  I have no difficulty respecting Christmas and 
the beliefs it stands for, but it is a problem when others expect me to share 
in its celebration.

To Jews I wish a Happy Chanukah.  To Christians I wish a Merry Christmas.
In this spirit, happy holidays!

    Whether we like it or not we all (Jew and non-Jew alike) live in
    a pluralist society and as such all of us bear the responsibility
    for caring and respecting each others differences. (valuing same)
    
    Another point that has yet to be raised here is the one of
    understanding and the teaching each other (especially the children)
    about the true meaning of Chanuaka or Christmas.
    
    If you ask our children about the meanings of either Chanuaka or
    Christmas the response I hear the most is one of receiving presents
    and nothing about the "Miracle of lights" or of the "birth of Jesus"
    
    We all spend to much time debating our feelings about each others
    motives and the unhappiness of same. We should spend this time in
    the process of education so our children and future notes files
    do not debate the same issues we do year after year.
    
    To be honest "HAPPY CHANUAKA AND THE MERRIEST OF CHRISTMAS'S TO
    ALL"
    
    Also If you celebrate neither Seasons Grestings 
     

    From the other side of the fence, which is not so very different:
    
    Robin, you ask how to 'cope' in the face of all the hype of
    Christmas. I, a Christian, also ask each year, 'how to cope'.
    
    The hype, Robin [and friends], is not produced by Christians, but
    many do fall victim to it. It is produced by businessmen who worship 
    the dollar, and is perpetuated by Christians who think that Christmas
    means more and bigger and better gifts. The commercialization of
    Christmas grates on my nerves, and saddens me to see how the holiday, 
    which should be so meaningful for Christians, has been diluted to such a
    point that many don't remember its meaning any more! That's why there 
    are so many 'rude' people at this time of the year, as someome
    mentioned. They have turned their backs on the real spirit of the
    season and are caught up in the things of the world.
    
    *IF* they rememembered the real reason for the season, they would
    not expect Jewish folks to participate in it. The kind of thing
    I read about here is nothing more than insensitivity and boorishness
    on the part of those who do not respect the Jewish faith.
    
    I wonder, too, whether the feelings expressed against Christmas
    have something to do with general anti-Christian feelings that run 
    deep [and which are brought to the surface more readily because
    Christmas is such a *visible* holiday]. It adds to the problem
    when people are insensitive to you feelings. 
    
    I think we'd all [Christians] be better off [and maybe you folks,
    too] if we celebrated Christmas in the same spirit as you celebrate
    Chanukah. There's a lot we can learn from you. In fact, there's
    a lot we *did* learn from you in the early days of the Judaism
    of Jesus, but somehow we've gotten away from some of the spirit
    of these celebrations.
    
    Christmas means a great deal to me [and, yes, I don't like seeing
    'Xmas' either]. It is the spirit of Christmas, the reason for this
    season, that our family focuses on.
    
    I feel for all of you and I can relate to your expressed feelings.
    Being a minority, especially at a time like this, must be very
    difficult. Know that I understand, although I don't know how much
    that helps...
    
    Dave Elllis said it very well in .12 about there being a difference
    between respecting another's holiday, and actually celebrating/
    participating in it. I agree with you, Dave.  
    
    The attitudes that come into play here are very similar to the
    discussion on attending church...to what extent do you participate
    in the service, customs, traditions? It would be easy for me to
    celebrate Chanukah, because Christianity has its roots in Judaism.
    It would be impossible for you to celebrate Christmas because your
    faith does not embrace the one Whom we recognize as the promised
    Messiah.  To expect you to celebrate this holiday is unreasonable.
    
    Remember that those who seem to demand that you participate in
    observance of Christmas most likely have a superficial sense of 
    its meaning, and are not asking you to participate in the faith.
    [small consolation, I know].
    
    Happy Chanukah!
    
    Love,
    Irena                                
    

    Has anyone else noticed the big push by the "Jews for Jesus" each
    December?  Full page ads in major magazines every week, etc., I
    suppose to appeal to Jews who feel alienated at this time of year
    when everyone else seems to be celebrating (like me, to some extent
    - I am debating wehter to volunteer for Project Ezra or one of those
    sorts of things where they recruit Jewish volunteers to run soup
    kitchens and act as volunteers in hospitals on Christian holidays
    so that the usual volunteers can spend the day with their families
    - otherwise I end up spending Christmas day, since we have the day
    off from work, sitting around at home with not much to do, since
    everything is closed).  I have been tempted to send in their little
    card to see what sort of propaganda they will send me, except that
    I don't really think I want to be on their junk-mailing list, as
    a potential "cultee" or whatever -- I suppose I could send one in
    in the name of one of my cats, or something!

    Don't send them anything.  Ignore them but tell your non-Jewish
    friends [some of my best friends aren't Jewish you know 8-] that
    they are NOT supported by Jews, on the whole.  You'd be surprised 
    how many people don't know this.  

    RE:.14

    Don't you mean the Christmas HOLIDAY, not SEASON?

    I have read through all the replies and am more than a little 
    amazed at the number of people REALLY bothered by christmas and
    all the trappings. I am jewish. Was brought up in Brookline (ma)
    and until high school thought everyone in the world had a kosher
    kitchen (so I was naive). 
       My folks always (and still do) made a big deal of Chanukah. We
    had latkies and lit the manorah and sang songs. I thought (and still
    think) that that is great. Now that our daughter is eighteen months
    old we lit the candles for her (last year she was asleep by
    lighting time) and we will attempt to instill in her what my folks
    instilled in me.
        Now I am not blind. I see the rest of the world setting up for
    christmas. Marlboro (where we live) has a big lighted arrangment.
    And we are the only house in my entire neighborhood sans lights.
    And we go to an occasional "holiday" party. Great. I am not bothered
    by the fact that ALL my neighbors have lights up or have christmas
    trees in their homes. I'd no sooner have a christmas tree in my
    house as have a ham for easter. BUT neither does it bother me that
    in downtown and on the radio, I hear a lot of christmasy (sorry)
    music.  I live in a world that is predominanty non-jewish. Its a
    fact of life. And if I wish to continue living as such I will take
    a "you-go-your-way-I'll-go-mine" approach where I can celebrate
    chanukah as I was taught and you can celebrate christmas as you
    were taught. And if they happen to fall during the same time of
    year...hey that's neat. But does it bother me or do I feel someone
    is plowing something down my mouth??? just shut off that stupid
    box that sits in the den and most of it will go away.
    
    
       jeff wolf

>    I have read through all the replies and am more than a little 
>    amazed at the number of people REALLY bothered by christmas and
>    all the trappings.

    I enjoy see people openly and noisily celebrating their holiday.
    I even enjoy helping friends and family celebrate that holiday.
    As long as they realize that it is NOT MY HOLIDAY and that I am
    involved because the people mean something to me and not the
    holiday.

    Gavriel

    re:.6 et al,
    
    It is not a coincidence that Christmas and Hanuka fall at the same
    season.  Yeshua (Jesus) was born in October!  I don't know when
    the Maccabean war was _really_ fought but it is celebrated near
    the winter solstice for the same reason.
    
    In the Roman empire (and most other older cultures), winter solstice
    (shortest day of the year) marked the "return of the sun", when
    the days began to get longer.  The Romans called it Saturnalia and
    had a big bash.  Some still do:  A friend just got a Saturnalia
    card from a Druidic acquaintance!  (The card was printed in Wales.)
    
    Now how do you compete with this?  Christians moved the birth
    celebration to that season, while Jews celebrate the "festival of
    light" (hmmm...) with an entirely different story (more political).
    Sounds good to me.  In modern athiest Russia, they give gifts on
    New Year's, which does a lot to dull Christmas (which is Jan. 6)!
    
    Other Jewish festivals (and Christian, etc.) are seasonal.  We
    celebrate the spring with Pesach and harvest with Succot, both eight
    days long.  Hanuka is the eight day response to Saturnalia, but
    more minor in observance than the other two.
    
    Besides, the traditional Jewish day for gift-giving is Purim. 
          fred

    As pointed out in -.1, the birth celebration was moved to coincide
    closely with the winter solstice, when European non-Christian (or
    should I say pre-Christian) religions had major celebrations.
    
    Last year, we spent some vacation at Sturbridge Village between
    Christmas and New Years. (It's amazing how far 3 days of vacation
    time will take you at that time of year.) We learned that in the
    colonies, Christmas was not celebrated. It wasn't until roughly
    100 years ago that it was actively celebrated.
    
    Now, as mentioned, it is highly commercialized. Excessively. Each
    year, the pre-Christmas sales push edges further back. As Christmas
    approaches, it gets harder and harder to find a radio station that
    isn't playing the same Christmas carols over and over. (Ruth pointed
    out that her jazz station is a notable exception.)
    
    Interestingly, many people undergo periods of depression around
    Christmas time, and not just Jews by any stretch of the imagination.
    
    Personally, I find it progressively more irritating as Christmas
    approaches, and it seems to annoy me more each year. I'm referring
    to the insistent, incessant commercialism and what seems to be too
    often a forced mood of celebration. It's the same issue of "Holiday"
    vs. "Holy Day" that applies to the Jewish holidays as well. I don't
    feel animosity to Christmas-as-holy-day, or its joyous nature. It's
    the plastic wrapping that gets to me.
    
    As for the Jews for Jesus (something of an oxymoron!), I used to
    work on Wall Street, where they frequently made appearances, especially
    this time of the year. _THEM_ I found offensive! To the point where
    I have often told Ruth, if she ever gets a call from the police
    saying I'm under arrest, she'll know I slugged one of 'em. Lousy
    attitude, I guess, but I find cults to be bad business, especially
    when they're avowed purpose is to interfere with me and my beliefs.
    
    To Whom It May Concern: HAPPY WHATEVER!
    
    - Richard
                                    

    Hi,
    
    Going back to the origional question, I like to take advantage of
    the 'christmas holiday' by doing something active, and getting away
    from it. Before I started work, I used to be a member of a Zionist
    youth movement here in England. Every December we had our annual
    conference in Oxford, that magically provided not only an escape, but 
    lots of fun around a completely different topic. This really is an ideal
    time of year to get away from it all (not just Christmas).
    
    In the last 3 years, I've tried to do other things. Last year it
    was DIY, and this year I'll be doing some touring. It's a great
    time as so few other people are around! 
    
    If you really want to get away from it, you can't beat walks in
    the mountains, but don't take the Radio!
    
    Malcolm

    
    

    Having read through the base note and all the replies (many of which
    were thoughtful and heart-felt), I think that I can sum up my feelings
    (a lot of which has been said by others a lot more eloquently than
    I):
    
    1 - Yes, we have Chanukah, and Chanukah was probably given the emphasis
    it is given as a response to Christmas. I am not saying it is right
    or wrong. I happen to think it's almost mandatory if you are going
    to raise children other than say, in parts of Brookline, Newton
    or Sharon (or Williamsburg). I can see the point of those who disagree.
    
    2 - Yes, a lot of Christians deplore the extent to which Christmas
    has been commercialized, and than what to them is the true meaning
    of Christmas has been diminished.
    
    3 - Yes, in the spirit of valuing differences, we should respect
    each others holidays (or holy days), and yes, it should be but usually
    isn't a two-way street.
    
    But, even given all these things, I have to be honest and admit
    that one of the overrriding feelings I have during the months of
    November-December is being overwhelmed and resentful of the commercial
    blitz, of the spirit of ecumenicism that encourages my daughter
    to bring along the words to "I have a little dreidl" so that the
    Brownies can include it when they go carolling, the "holiday" parties
    that, as mentioned, are mainly for a specific holiday, the inability
    of many governmental institutions (MCI Concord, e.g.) to realize
    that they are offending me when they place creches or other religious
    or even "seasonal" symbols on their front yards; in short, of the
    general pervasiveness of Christmas. Maybe its the price
    one pays for being a member of a minority group. I wish it were
    otherwise.
                                        
    Dick Rosenberg

    re .7
    
    	When I was growing up as part of an Orthodox community, many
    of the people in my parents' generation could not ever bring themselves
    to mention the word "Christ" (too many negative feelings from the
    old country, I suppose) or, by extension, the word "Christmas."
    If they had to refer to the name of the legal holiday, they would
    use "Xmas" as a euphemism.  So, they weren't so much trying to take
    the Christ out of Christmas or to make Christians feel bad about
    it, since they (the Jews who did this) probably didn't know many
    Christians socially in the first place.
    
    	On the other hand, I also understand that "Xmas" is an abbreviation
    used by Christians since "X" is the letter closest in shape to the cross
    and therefore is an abbreviation for "Christ."
    
    	So, you can take it any way you want to.
    
    		David

    .all
    
    Enough of this philosophic discussion. (We Jews do well at this)
    
    So, tell me has anyone received anything special for Chanuaka so
    far ?.

    Gelt, what else?

    The Klezmer Conservatory, "Oy, Chanukah" on CD.

re: 409.15

>    Has anyone else noticed the big push by the "Jews for Jesus" each
	...
>    - I am debating wehter to volunteer for Project Ezra or one of those
	...
>                            I have been tempted to send in their little
>   card to see what sort of propaganda they will send me, except that

	Please don't confuse Jews for Jesus with Project Ezra!  Project
Ezra is a legitimate Jewish activity that has no connection with JfJ.

	PE started a few years ago as a local activity (in Dallas, I think)
and has spread.  The basic idea is simply an expression of goodwill and
respect for our non-Jewish neighbors.  Unfortunately, I don't have the contact
info with me or I'd post it--I think you can call the Jewish Commnity Council
office (in the Boston area) to find out more.

RE: -1

>	Please don't confuse Jews for Jesus with Project Ezra!  Project
>Ezra is a legitimate Jewish activity that has no connection with JfJ.

>	PE started a few years ago as a local activity (in Dallas, I think)
>and has spread.  The basic idea is simply an expression of goodwill and
>respect for our non-Jewish neighbors.  Unfortunately, I don't have the contact
>info with me or I'd post it--I think you can call the Jewish Commnity Council
>office (in the Boston area) to find out more.

My daughter's Sunday school, Harvard Hillel Children's School, 
participates in Project Ezra -- it is definitely a worthwhile 
activity.  The basic idea is that you are taking the place of a 
Christian volunteer, who can then stay home with his/her family 
on the 25th.  Last year, we helped transport residents of a 
nursing home to mass (it was a Catholic home), and then to 
dinner.  This year, our group will be bringing food and presents 
to elderly shut-ins.  There is a variety of work available.

  You can call Roz Garber at the Synagogue Council (617)244-6506.

  She seems to be there Mon-Thurs mornings.

Bobbi_who_is_chair_of_the_Tzedakah_committe_of_her_daughter's_Sunday_school

    Re: .24
    
    X being the closest letter to the cross?????...
    
    	Try the letter  "  t   "   it is MUCH closer!
    
    Re: gifts...
    
    Well, Bob had a special dinner made for him (next year I think I'll
    try potato pancakes - I SHOULD have thought of it this year {darn!}..)
    and he also got a special car wrench he was wanting.... and cookies
    (homemade) tonight...
    
    Michael... gelt -- isn't that chocolate covered candy made to look
    like coins?.... If so maybe Bob will find that tomorrow evening waiting
    for him :-)....

    Gale

       'Xmas' is considered by Webster's to be a perfectly good term;
       it's listed in the dictionary as a lexical equivalent of
       Christmas.  The 'X' is described as "symbol for Christ, from the
       Greek letter chi, initial of Christos". 
       
       Some people clearly don't prefer the use of the term Xmas, which
       ought to be sufficient for its non-use in conferences; it is,
       however, a commonly used term and is even used in some very
       popular conferences in their welcoming messages (cf. WOMANNOTES).
       
       --Mr Topaz
       
       p.s.: Thanks, Gale, for both your interest in this conference and
       the continuing details of your personal life. 

Re: .30:  Well stated!

I might add that I have seen some Christians refer to themselves as "Xians"
and their religion as "Xianity", which is in keeping with the "X" as a
short form of "Christ".

Incidentally, if there are any readers who might not know, "Christ" is the
Greek word for "anointed one".  The word "messiah" comes from the Hebrew
"mashiach", which also means "anointed one".  

    re: .16
    
    Michael,
    
    Yes, by rights I probably should have said 'holiday', not season. 
    But Christmas is a state of mind/heart/spirit for me that involves
    a pre- and post holiday glow, which pretty much makes it into a
    'season'. But then, how long is a 'season' anyway?
    
    Irena
    [who is eating donuts and making potato pancakes these days...and
    will probably add a menorah and candles next year...how long will
    *that* make the 'season'?  How wonderful! We'll sail from Chanukah 
    straight into Christmas!  I *love* it!  ;-) ]     
                                            
    

    Every year at this time, I get into an argument with my husband about
    Christmas as a religous holiday.  He claims that as it is celebrated
    today, it is an American holiday, separate from the celebration of
    Christ's birth.  After all, how many Christians think of New Year's
    Day as a celebration of Jesus' bris?
    
    We usually end up agreeing to celebrate the Solstice.  As several
    earlier replies pointed out, Yule, Christmas, and Channukah are all
    reflections of the lengthening day.
    
    Beverly
    

    
    	Reminder:  Latkes should be whit-ish/brown, not gray like
    			my father makes.

    	Gelt is money.  Chocolate or real, both are my buddy!
    
    	Enjoy!
    
    

    	X is the ancient Greek symbol of Christ so Xmas means Christmas.
    This is not a new custom. It has been around for almost 2000 years.
    But then what do the Greeks know. Chanukah is the celebration of
    the time the Jews defeated the Greeks and drove them out of The Temple.

    	I think that is a terrible thing to do to a cat and I am going
    to say so in the feline notes file. B^{)
    		Have a meow Xmas

    	I wantd to get a puppy for my wife but the pet store said they
    don't take trades. 8&{)   & = broken nose

    If you would like more infrmation on Project Ezra you might
    call Caroline at the office of |T|emple Beth Am (framingham)
    872-8300.. She has info. available.

    I'll add my voice to Gael's on the "Xmas" issue.  Although I am
    no longer a Christian, I still flinch when I see that instead of
    Christmas.  (It's hard to eradicate early training.)  It _really_
    is seen as being disrespectful by many Christians.
    

    Re: .39
    
    Thanks...
    
    I really didn't expect too much, but I was hoping that "someone"
    would realize that it does hurt another segment to see the "X",
    and maybe out of respect for that segment change...
    
    AS to you Mr. Topaz, you're welcome :-)
    
    Oh, and I think a "t" would be closer to your "x"   
    
    Gale

    Just a reminder, for those interested in participating in Project
    Ezra this year.  For those who haven't heard, it is a
    project for December 25, in which Jewish volunteers substitute for
    Christian workers at food kitchens, etc.
    
                                       Aaron

From:	US1RMC::"CJ-L%ALBNYVM1.BITNET@pucc.Princeton.EDU" "Discussion of beliefs and practices of Conservative Judaism"    7-DEC-1992 13:51:08.57
To:	Multiple recipients of list CJ-L <CJ-L%ALBNYVM1.BITNET@pucc.Princeton.EDU>
CC:	
Subj:	Christmas parties


     Christmas season is here, and with it comes the question of the annual
Christmas party.

     I teach at the College of Law of the University of Utah in Salt Lake
City.  As a state school, we do not have accurate records of the ethnic or
religious composition of our student body, but my rough estimate is that of
about 450 students, less than a dozen are jewish.  At least one student is of
Moslem background.  Probably close to 1/3 are practicing Mormons, and almost
another 1/3 may be of Mormon background or descent.  In a recent student
poll, roughly 70% of the respondents said they were not active members of any
religion.  Salt Lake itself is about 1/2 Mormon, and of those, again roughly
half are church members.

     In this context of a tiny Jewish population and an unusually unified
Christian one, the annual christmas party may have a somewhat different
flavor than elsewhere.  Nonetheless, I would welcome any comments or thoughts
anyone has on the situation or the memo I recently sent to a student involved
in organizing it.

 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
TO:       <a student>

FROM:     Daniel J.H. Greenwood

SUBJECT:  Holiday Party

DATE:     November 30, 1992


     Last week you approached me regarding the "Holiday Party"
that the Student Bar Association(?) is planning to celebrate
Christmas.  As I understand the situation, the SBA has decided to
have a Christmas party, including a Christmas tree, but is
concerned about the possible exclusion of non-Christians.
Accordingly, it has decided to call the party a "holiday party"
and was interested in any further suggestions I, as a non-
Christian, might have to avoid offense and promote inclusiveness.  You
specifically asked me whether anyone might interpret a tree -- which you
described as non-religious and of pagan origins -- as a religious symbol.


     After further reflection, I have come to the following
conclusions.  First, I assume that the SBA is not an arm of the
United States of America or the State of Utah.  Accordingly, I do
not believe that the considerations which might apply in a state
function automatically or necessarily apply to this more private
function.

     Second, a Christmas party is a Christmas party, even if it
is called a holiday party.  After all, we all know which holiday
it is that is the cause of the party:  Passover, the Ramadan and
the Emperor's birthday are in different seasons altogether.
Similarly, a Christmas tree is a Christmas tree, even if it does
not have a baby Jesus under it or a star on top of it.  For those
of us outside the Christian tradition, a celebration of Jesus'
birthday, however lacking in prayer, must remain an essentially
Christian activity: Jews -- and non-Christians generally -- have
no cause to celebrate that particular day.

     I do not mean to say that the decision to call the Christmas
party a holiday party or to avoid the most obviously sectarian of
its symbols is unimportant.  Our law school community includes
many students of Christian (cultural) background who are secular
or otherwise not practicing or believing Christians -- far more,
indeed, than Jews and other non-Christians.  For Christians, and
more particularly, lapsed, non-practicing, or non-believing
Christians, the distinction between Christmas Mass, on the one
hand, and poinsettia plants, Christmas trees and Santa Claus, on
the other, is no doubt important and may serve to distinguish a
"religious" Christmas celebration from a "non-religious"  or
"non-sectarian" one.  These distinctions may be important to the
SBA in finding a way to resolve the conflicts between and
avoiding offending religious and non-religious Christians or
believers in different varieties of Christianity.

     From the perspective of an outsider, however, the difference
between a Creche and Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer is only one
of degree, not of kind.  In each case the celebration is a
foreign one, not mine.  (That is why I object strenuously to
official political (American) celebrations of Christmas, however
"secular":  I should not be made to feel a foreigner by my own
government.)

     But America -- and even Utah -- is made up of people
belonging to many cultures and many religions.  It would be a
tragedy if those communities were to cease to celebrate their own
traditions in the fullest for fear of offending others.  I, for
one, have no intention of watering down my own cultural and
religious traditions in order to make them "secular," "non-
sectarian" or "inoffensive (to outsiders)."  [Other reasons for reform are
another matter].  In my view it would
be a shame if others did either.  (This, of course, is the reason
why believing Christians ought to object to state religion:  it
is inherently watered down and inauthentic.)

     Accordingly, it seems to me that the proper way to deal with
the Christmas party is to have a Christmas party and to invite
everyone -- including the non-Christians -- to enjoy your
celebration with you.  Pretending that it is my celebration too
somehow seems wrong:  first, it never will be, and second, it
takes the fun out of it for all concerned.  I'd rather share your
celebration as an acknowledged outsider than have the difference
between my tradition and the Christian tradition denied by a
claim that Christmas -- if only it doesn't mention Jesus by name
-- is somehow my holiday too.

     If you are concerned about the possibility that a Christmas
party will exclude the non-Christians among you, perhaps the best
solution is the most straightforward:  invite them to join your
party as respected outsiders -- without denying them their
separate identities by asking them to pretend that they are
insiders.  The mere recognition that Christmas is, inherently,
sectarian, and does not include everyone in our law school
community would, it seems to me, go most of the way towards
making its celebration acceptable.

     If there is concern about the sectarianism inherent in
celebrating a holiday that belongs to almost but not quite all
its members, a better solution might be to celebrate as well
something belonging to the others.  Thus, rather than trying to
pretend that a Christmas party includes non-Christians, perhaps
the SBA could consider adding a Purim party or some other
distinctly non-Christian celebration in another season
altogether.  Adding a token reference to Chanukah to the
Christmas party is not, I think, an adequate substitute, if only
because Chanukah is not a particularly central Jewish holiday
(indeed, it is not even a holy-day at all) -- the Jewish holiday
"season," as students in my classes know, is the High Holy Days
in September/October or Passover in April. [Anyway, what about the other
non-Christians?]

     Alternatively, the party could be made truly non-sectarian:
rather than a "holiday party" for a sectarian holiday, complete
with Christmas tree, Santa Claus and stockings, it could be an
end-of-semester party, with sacrifices of old exams, ritualized
dancing around the Outline and prayers for a flat, high grade
curve.  That avoids the exclusiveness problem altogether -- and
probably would be the only acceptable solution for a public,
State, function.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++

     So far, I have received no response.  The signs around the College are
for a "Holiday Party" and have a picture of Tree, Santa, and stockings.

Dan Greenwood

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    re .42
    
    How sensible and practical!  I like the insider/outsider
    distinction--it's very clear.
    
    		-John Bishop

    I like .42's suggestion of an explicit Christmas party with
    non-Christians invited as special guests.  It is appropriate for
    voluntary associations (such as the SBA) but I don't think it is
    appropriate for work-sponsored parties, except those sponsored by
    individuals.  I still have a problem with work group Christmas or
    holiday parties.  
    
    As the author indicated, it is certainly not appropriate for government
    events.  Unfortunately, my local public schools are all doing Christmas
    events this time of year.  It's tough when you live in the boonies...
    
    At least in my little group (14 people), we're handling it this way: 
    our luncheon will be at the home of a Jewish co-worker and will have a
    heavy Chanukah theme.  We've got 4 strongly identified Jews in the
    group.  A different twist, to be sure! 
    
    L
    

I really like the distinctions made in .42.  I have always been one to enjoy 
sharing celebrations with other groups, in both directions, yet keeping the
clarity about who's party it is!  I have an "adopted" family with whom I spend
Christmas and conversely I always have a big Seder for Christians each year.

I had an interesting experience this year though.  Everyone has always told me
that it was easy for me to be so sharing because I am an adult with a clear
identify who can bend the boundaries in my mind without confusion, but that when
I had children, I would become more sensitive to some of the issues.  Well, I
took my 19 month old to the cape to celebrate Christmas with my friends, and
we trimmed the tree and baked cookies and sang carols and ate turkey and 
exchanged gifts.  I enjoyed my usual clarity about it being THEIR holiday and
we were just helping them celebrate it.  

In the morning, my friend took my little girl into the living room to discover
what "Santa" had brought her.  Was it my imagination or did I suddenly feel a
twing I hadn't felt before?  My comfort was disturbed for the first time...

Don't totally understand it, but will continue to explore -

Waky

I picked this up from scj last year.
    
    
From "The Big Book of College Humor".
 
	Xmas season,
	O, invention wise!
	Spearhead for
	Free Enterprise!
	
	'Tis time of year
	For profit making,
	Booming sales
	And money taking.
 
	There's shopping, shoving,
	Screaming, yelling,
	Rushing, pushing,
	Buying, selling.
 
	Grab it,
	Buy it,
	Wrap it,
	Tie it,
	Lick it,
	Paste it,
	Send it,
	Waste it,
	Like it?
	Swap it,
	Stop it,
	STOP IT!!
 
	Xmas season?
	It's black and bluish;
	Screw it all--
	I'm glad I'm Jewish.
 
		Yale Record c. 1965