Conference taveng::bagels

    I do not think that "home smashing" is a punishment dealt out as 
    a punishment to criminals generally.  I think that it is reserved 
    particularly for Arabs accused of acts against the State.
    
    As to the rationale behind this particular type of punishment:  I think 
    it is recognized that family and community are central to Arab values. 
    The dwelling place that locates an individual within this value set is 
    especially precious.  It is thus felt by the authorities that a threat 
    to this location could act as a deterrent to acts against the state.
    
    Incidentally, this form of punishment is not a recent invention.  It
    was used during the 1947-48 turmoil and perhaps earlier.  See 
    Benny Morriss's "The Origin of the Palestinean Refugee Problem".

    I meant to say that "home smashing" is *not* at punishment dealt out 
    to criminals generally.

    I remember that recent HUD regulations/legistlation? dictate that if a
    member of a family is arrested for drug crimes, the entire family is
    evicted from the HUD housing development. 

    re .6, HUD "home-smashing", War vs. Peace
    
    Just because the US does it, does not mean that it's right.
    
    Destroying homes and evicting possibly innocent people is an
    act of war, and is great PR for the Palestinian side.
    
    One of the reasons the US lost the Viet-Nam war was that while
    we could have fought and won (which a third of the public wanted),
    and we could have quit and left (which a third of the public
    wanted), we actually compromised on a third-hearted war, which we
    would not win and from which we could not easily remove ourselves,
    thus coming to neither conclusion (and so disappointing the remaining
    third of the public, which only wanted to end the whole thing one
    way or another).
    
    The lesson for Israel is that it should either do war (expel all
    Arabs, annex the West Bank, etc.) or do peace (remove the so-called
    occupying forces, recognize an independant Palestine, etc.). The
    current mish-mash of policies leads slowly and expensively to a
    much worse war, with fewer allies and a good chance of extinction.
    
    				-John Bishop    

	RE: All

	It's _much_ earlier that 1947.  In the second world war
	the SS (and friends) did the same thing to innocent Jewish
	families.

	But then...people have pretty short memories...a shame isn't it!
	
	Before someone accuses me of equating the Israeli Army with
	NAZI Germany...all I'm saying is eye-for-an-eye used to mean
	something else.

	

    I think it must be realized that the Middle East has its own set 
    of traditions, attitudes, and patterns of behaviour (as illustrated 
    by recent events).  Of course every area of the world has unique 
    characteristics.  But those that attract our attention today are 
    those unique to this region.  
    
    As pointed out in another recent note in this conference, Israel is 
    acting in what is called a schizophrenic manner (although I do not 
    think that there is anything pathological about it.) On the one hand, 
    Israel must deal with an enemy that uses humiliation as a weapon; and 
    with an ally that that likes to talk in terms of "honor and decency."

    What evidence can you cite to support your contention that the 
    Nazis entered Jewish homes, told the people to leave, and then 
    destroyed their homes.  There is, on the other hand, a great deal 
    of evidence that the Nazis arrested people in their homes, sent them 
    to their deaths, and then gave these homes and furnishings to 
    good German families.
    
    There is absolutely no comparison between what the Nazis did and 
    what the Israelis are doing ... no comparison on ANY level.

Here's a piece of information I picked up this week, courtesy of the
_Near East Report_, which is published by AIPAC, the American Israel
Public Affairs Committee.

In all the years that Israel has been demolishing the homes of terrorists,
a grand total of about 250 homes have been destroyed.  That's an awful lot
less than I had assumed it was by reading the newspapers.

This doesn't _justify_ the action.  I haven't decided if this kind of action
is _morally_ reprehensible.  Certainly it is _not_ as evil to destroy property
as it is to destroy (kill and maim) people.  With regard to demolition as a
strategy, I'm not sure how effective it is in curbing terrorism, especially 
with the negative PR backlash.  But it does seem that those who have an axe 
to grind with Israel have gotten a lot of mileage out of this relatively 
minor issue.

    relatively minor issue? What concept of democracy is it you're having?

	RE: .-1

	Having recently spent a week in the West Bank area especially
	near Hebron I think that I might be drawn to comment.

	When people start throwing rocks and attempting to break the 
	property of others in a major way and riots break out democracy
	tends to take a back seat. I think that this struggle wether
	just or unjust has gone beyond the point of a civil disagreement
	so a question like "What concept of democracy is it you're having ?"
	really has absolutely nothing to do with a violent clash. The feeling
	that I got upon seeing tyres buring, local malitia, riot's, oh yes I
	almost forgot the odd stoning I must say convince me that no people
	in the bank area are looking for a democratic solution.

	Besides that would not make good money sense of the PLO who are
	getting many millions of dollars for this struggle, there bank
	account's would suffer after all if a democratic solution was
	apparent. Ok I admit it that was a cheap low down dirty horrid
	comment full of conjecture as to the fate of the money on my part.
	Really guy's these poor blighters are going broke.

	Secondly what would happen to Israel if the Arab's really
	were integrated and living peacefully like they did until a few
	years ago after all I figure that if the mosque above Abrahams tomb
	could accomadate a synagogue then all else must be possiable. I'm
	sorry if this offensive to some here but I really think that both
	sides are doing very nicely thank you from the continuing unrest
	and that many on both sides don't actually want a solution thank you
	very much so the sooner we stop sticking our western middle classes
	noses into their bussiness the better I figure. I found that the
	attitude of many of the natives of this land (Jew and Islam'ic)
	was that they were sick of us from the west sicking our pokers into
	their fire.

	Karl "Opps I almost hit that burning tire" Mutch

	P.s. I could never figure out why or how the west banker's have
	     never been killed by one of those commercial rock throwers
	     but have been shot to death. Forget making sense out of this.

	P.s.s.	Some one might be able to tell me why the children in the
		bank do these protest's that I saw. I could never actually
		get a straight answer from anyone. Forget making sense out of 
		this.

	P.s.s.s	One thing that got me was when I asked a jerusalem local
		about him going back to Jordan (Which is a very pretty country)
		I did not get the expected response of "This land is my land
		This land is our land" BUT I got "They would make me go in
		the Army for 2 years" I could not believe it ! This guy
		used to live in Jordan did he not. What happens if he
		actually get's his way and his home suddenly is inside
		Jordan (just the place he want's to stay away from)
		sorry Lad but it's to the army you go. Forget making sense 
		out of this.