Conference taveng::bagels

    Maybe if they had made the Yamulkes out of steel, the Jewish officers
    could have substituted them for helmets!
    
    Typical case of religious bigotry in action. What possible effect
    on performance could wearing a yamulke make!!!!!!!
    
    Jack

    I heard about the decision on "all things considered" yesterday,
    including an interview with Simcha Goldman, the officer who brought
    the case to the supreme court.  His point was that not only did
    it infringe upon his constitutional rights, but the military was
    carrying out the "melting pot" philosophy to an extreme.  There
    also was a case involving Pentacostals, who refused to roll up their
    sleeves because they do not believe in exposing any part of the
    body in public.
    
    Well I have to say that I can agree with Capt. Goldman, and then
    again I can't.  He is right as long as he goes to a meeting where
    his commanding officer invokes the name of Jesus as a pre-meeting
    blessing (which he described in the interview), then as far as I'm
    concerned he should wear the kipah.  But if all business is kept
    on the secular level, then I'm afraid I digress from his opinion.
    
    I've been in two armies, and I can tell you this, an army is not
    a democracy, in fact there is no place for democracy in an army
    if it is to carry out it's function to the fullest.  This is true
    even in Zahal.  So if there is a regulation in the U.S. armed services
    prohibiting wearing religious garments, then that's the law, just
    or unjust.
    
    Look emotionally I sympathize with Goldman, but he should realize
    that there is only one army in the world in which Jews wear kipot,
    tzitzit, etc., and that is Zahal.  I'm not suggesting that he
    automatically resign from the Air Force, make aliyah and join Zahal,
    just that he should realize his surroundings, if you know what I
    mean.
    
    David

    
    
    	I too, must back Mr Cherson's message.  If you are in the
    	army, the rules of a Democracy do NOT apply.  Sure, I see no
    	harm in wearing the Kippah, but what can he do.  When he enrolled
    	he, in a sense, gave up his rights of free speech, etc..
    
    

    I disagree
    
    A point to consider that he is a Chaplain and therefore should be
    given somewhat different rules such as there are different rules
    for doctors.  Christian religious symbols  needs only be displayed
    during religious services but to apply that same doctrine to Judaism
    is lacking in responsitiveness to the needs of the troops.  I would
    have expected this from the Army rather than the Air Force.
    
     

I guess we all know now what uniform means -- homogenized.  Thos in
    thearmed services shall be uniform.  But this poses a special problem
    for Jews.  On the one had we say, "Look I'm just like you.  I'm
    a human being too." On the other had some of us wear yomulkes, others
    wear caftans and broad-brimmed black hats which say, "I'm different,
    I'm a Jew."  I think that to one degreee or another, we all say
    that, because we are different. I so far as the supreme court decision
    is concerned:  It appears that Lieutenant, then Captain, then Colonel,
    then General Schieskopf (Catch 22) has made it to the supreme court.

    re: .4
    
    As far as I understand it (from radio) is that Simcha Goldman is
    not a chaplain, but a psychologist working in a base hospital.
    
    Jewish chaplains are not discriminated against in any fashion in
    the armed forces.  The ones who don't wear kippot, except during
    services, are not Orthodox.  That's all, not that there is a rule
    against it, chaplains are exempted from that rule.
    
    By flaming the armed services as anti-semitic, etc., you're missing
    the nature of anti-semitism in North America.  Anti-semitism here
    is practiced on an individual basis, not an institutional one (I
    know all about the old quota system, but that went out in the '50's).
    Outside of the religious garment issue, Jews are treated with equal
    respect (you can't account for racist individuals), kosher food
    is provided for those that request it.
    
    D.C.

    1.  PBS Radio called him a chaplin.  I also disagree that there
    needs to be a complete uniformity in the military.  If there was
    the Russian army would be the best fighting force in the world.  
    
    2.  Instituionalized anti-semtitism exists and if you don't believe
    then you must lead a very sheltered life.  The Army only recently
    allowed a Jewish Chapel at West Point.  Interesting in that 50%
    (1 out of 2) of the first class at West Point was Jewish.  The military
    condones extensive anti-semtism especially in the Southern bases.
     

    .0 has it right.  The US military is stuck somewhere in 19th centuty
    Prussia.  Such utter uniformity is not productive.
    
    Hey, if they want to exclude Orthodox Jews from serving in the
    military, it's their loss.  This should make the Soviets rather
    happy.
    
    The "military class" which makes up most of the officer corps in
    the US is heavily Southern, conservative Protestant, and doesn't
    cotton up too much to minority types.  Especially uppity ones,
    who insist on their rights to retain their own cultural identity.
    (Sound familiar on Purim week?)
    <set flame off>

    
    
    
     re .4> According to the N.Y. Times Mr. Goldman was an ordained
    	    rabbi but he was NOT a service chaplain, his capacity with
    	    the armed forces was that of psychologist.
    
    
    Now for my own opinion,
    This is starnge for me to say but according to the story in the
    paper, I disagree with Simcha.  The army is not a democracy
    and  that he was being asked to remove it while given testimony,
    when he had never been bothered before (acc. to N.Y.T.) I thing
    going to supreme court was out of line.
    
    I don't think it was nice that he was asked to remove it BUT
    
    1) A yarmulka is not a law rather a custom taken to a mitzvah.
    2) A jew is supposed to abide by the rules of his chosen country
       of exile. 'deena demalchuta deena' - aramaic for the laws of your
       kingdom are your laws.		
    3) I feel more harm in totality was done, than good could have been
       achievedif he had won.  It reinforces the fact that we are
    	*different* and that we follow another rule above the one they
       represent.  I for one don't like reminding people of that as
       I don't have a very healthy attitude of the United States 
       as the perfect haven for the Jewish Folk.
    
    Don't get me wrong on this one guys, I'm a frummie whose father
    never wore a kippa except in shul, and I always were mine
    (except when [for my own reasons] I go out on a sales call [I'm
    pre-sales]) ALL the time.  As was pointed out in an earlier
    response. There is only one country you can (& should) were a kippa
    in - Zahal.	(Which  BTW doesn't give special dispensations to the
    religious in terms of praying, if they want Shacaris- they better
    be up earlier than the rest of the guys and daven.)
    
    I expect criticism of my opinion and I will gladly entertain them
    all, tommorow.... Good Night
    
    Bruce C.
    
    P.S. While talking of kippot my wife crocheted a great on with the
    DIGITAL logo on it.
    			
    

    I think it's important to get all the facts of this case.  The man
    in question had served in the military (always wearing his kippah)
    for 4 years.  He had an outstanding record, and was planning to
    make the military his career.
    
    When he went to testify at a court martial trial he was asked by
    the prosecuting attorney to remove his kippah, and he would not.
     That's when the s@$% hit the fan for him and a number of other
    religious people in the military.
    
    My own opinion:  Mr. Goldman ran up against an anti-semite, pure
    and simple...and this anit-semite was a higher rank than Mr. Goldman.
    It may have started out as a personal issue, but it has become a
    broader one and affects a fair number of people in the military
    who have always been accomodated in the past.
    
    From NPR (All Things Considered)...evidently a number of congressmen
    are very upset about the Supreme Court ruling, and there will be
    some bills to get around it.  Eventually Mr. Goldman and other people
    like him in the military will be protected.  
    
    Personally, I admire him for taking a stand.
    
    ****andrea****

	Basically the world has always been antiSemitic and still is and
probably will always be. Have we not learned from the Magilla? It seems
that we Jews have to fight for our rights every generation in every country.

	On one hand our government tries to remove religion from the
military yet on the other hand the military has a chaplain corps. On
the other hand our government forbids prayer in school yet on the other hand
starts every congressional day with a prayer. Maybe the government has too
many hands.

	By the way I used DECspell on this message and as it should be DEC
does not have antiSemitic in its dictionary. Thank G-d for little things.
    

    	In reply to 91.9 I think there might be a market for yumilchas
    with the Digital logo. I would love to have one and I am sure that
    readers of this notes file would be interested. Would someone in
    the yumilcha business consider producing them. Any leftovers could be sold
    as P.C. covers to Goyum.

    re: .9 -
    
    Bruce, 
    
    I'd like to take issue with what you said about soldiers in Zahal
    having to get up earlier than others to say Sacharit, that's just
    not true.  I know for a fact that dati soldiers didn't get up any
    earlier than myself, and proceeded to services before breakfast
    while the rest of us were off doing other things.  In fact in basic
    training in Zahal, they usually organize entire platoons of dati
    soldiers, so there will be no conflicts and for mutual support.
    
    I'd also like to take issue with the person who claimed I was leading
    a "sheltered life" vis-a-vis anti-semitism in this country.  I was
    having fights in junior high over the fact that I was Jewish, I
    made the mistake of going to a school which was mostly populated
    by lower-class whites, and I was only one of three Jews in the school.
    My mother and her family were the only survivors of their town,
    where the entire Jewish population was slaughtered.  So don't tell
    that I don't know about anti-semitism.
    
    Yes the U.S. military is primarily run by Southern wasps, but that
    is where this country's military tradition comes from.  Of course
    many of them are bigoted, that's the South.  But that still doen't
    make for instritutionalized anti-semitism, there are no racist laws
    on the books, federal or state, we're not in Europe.
    
    D.C.

    There are no institutionalized anti-Semitic laws on the books in
    Russia either.  Their constitution even promises freedom of religion.
    It's custom, attitude and the opinions of the people in power that
    make the difference.
    
    Hence the US military reflects the attitudes of its officers.  Law
    or no law.

    Anti-semitism has been institutionalized by means other than laws
    in the Soviet Union for centuries.  The Bosheviks thought that by
    outlawing racism, that it would go away.  Unfortunately they couldn't
    account for the "natural" racists among themselves.
    
    Why is everyone making comparisons to the Soviets anyways?  Do you
    all think that the U.S. military isn't any better in it's treatment
    of Jews than the Red Army?  Why don't you go over to Russia and
    try asking a Jewish conscript which army he would rather be in?
    
    I have a nephew who is serving with the 82nd airborne right now,
    when he comes home for Pesach I'll ask him about this issue.  I
    think there is more to this than what we see or hear in the media.
    
    David

	Re:  .11
    
    
        DECspell has "anti-Semitism".

    So what does "dati" mean, and why are you calling Israel "Zahal"?
    Or are you talking about some other place?  Please, for readers
    like me who do not know Hebrew, give a translation the first time
    you use a word.
    			-John Bishop

    Apologies to those who don't know Hebrew.
    
    DATI = Religious, Pious ; The word DAT in Hebrew means religion,
    and when you add a Yud, the word becomes an adjective.
    ZAHAL = This the Hebrew acronym for "Zvah Hagana L'Yisrael", in
    English that means "Israel Defense Forces".
    
    David

    
    
    To all,
    
    Sorry for the typo's and non-exlplanation in my note, but if 
    you noticed the time I wrote it, it was 1:23 AM and I was kind of
    zonked.                                          
    
    David, thanks for the elaboration.  I meant 'army' and not 'country'.
    I stand corrected on the issue of getting up to pray.  I was basing
    my facts on what a friend who served had told me.
    
    John B. - A personal apology, from now on after-midnight is strict
    	      read-only mode.
    
    Also, my reaction wasn't condoning the armies decision,  I thought
    it was petty and anti-semetic but not unexpected.
    
    P.S. - how do you use decspell w/VAXnotes ???
    	

re.    P.S. - how do you use decspell w/VAXnotes ???
    	
You don't. I get out of notes, edit a text file, do a DECspell on it,
go back into notes, reply and then include the text file. Sounds
kloogy but at least the words are spelled rite.

    Re DECspell
    
    If you are using the EVE editor all you have to do to hit the DO
    key (PF4 on VT100) at the command line type spell and you are in
    DECspell
    
    							Rob

    If you have your profile set up for the EDIT key pad as mine is, you
    can use DECspell from the numerical keypad as follows.
    
    PF1, 7  - This puts you in the command mode 
    spell 
    <ENTER> 
    
    Does anyone know how to run DECspell with your profile set up for
    WPS?
    
    			Fred
    

    
    
    	Real Men Use Dictionary's !
    

>   Does anyone know how to run DECspell with your profile set up for
>   WPS?
 
    <gold> <cmnd> (PF1 [ ) Will put you in command mode.  SPELL <cr>
    runs DECspell.

    Interesting how kippot in the army turned into a discussion of
    DECSpell.
    
    To circle back, I wear a kippah all the time.  Nevertheless, I can
    appreciate the homogenizing effect of a military unit sharing one
    uniform.  If you (G-d forbid) ended up on the front line, and the
    rest of your unit were nochrim, would you want to be the
    "distinguished" one?
    

    re .26
    
    Only under the helmet.

    
    	How about a Sikh soldier that is required to wear a turban by his
    beliefs ?
    
        Would the Armies prohibition of his wearing it constitute
    anti-semitism ?
    
    David

>    	How about a Sikh soldier that is required to wear a turban by his
>    beliefs ?

    	Sikhs are proportionately overrepresented in the Indian army.
    It doesn't seem to be a problem there (except perhaps since the
    recent problems, which don't relate to turbans!).  Sikhs traditionally
    are among the best soldiers -- their religion also includes something
    about carrying a sword, too!
    
>        Would the armies prohibition of his wearing it constitute
>    Anti-Semitism ?

    	No, because Sikhs aren't Semites.  Anti-Sikhism, though!

    	 This shabos an Israeli paratrooper dropped in for services 
         (no pun intended) at our shul. Actually, he grew up in the 
         neighborhood and then moved to Israel. Now he's on leave and 
         visiting his parents.
    
    	 He told a humorous story of how one Friday morning before 
         inspection he put on a bright yellow "Sevas Ha'Shem" 
         (Soldiers of G-d) tee-shirt under his uniform. Everyone had a 
         good laugh and he was told not to do it again. That was the 
         end of the issue. Try to imagine what would have happened to 
         this young paratrooper in this country.
    
				Fred
	

    RE: .28 & .29
    
    From 'India Abroad'-  English language Indian newspaper published
    in N.Y.        Friday, April 18, 1986
    
    
    	Senate Bill May OK GI Turbans
    
    	Washington - Senators Frank R. Lautenberg (D-NJ) and Alfonso
    D'Amato (R-NY) introduced a bill last week on military uniforms
    that could have an impact on turbans being worn by personnel of
    the American armed forces
    	On August,21 1981, the wearing of turbans by services personnel
    was banned, after a review found the wearing of beards,unshorn
    hair,turbans and bracelets adverse to safety requirements in the
    service.
    	Lautenberg and D'Amato said that their bill was intended to
    overide a Supreme Court decision upholding the ban on services
    personnel wearinf yarmulkes, the skull cap worn by Orthodox Jews,
    but that it would also apply to other religious symbols.
    	In a letter to congress members,Lautenberg and D'Amato said
    ,"Our legislation is not confined to the wearing od yurmulkes,but
    addresses the wearing of any item of apparel that is part of the
    armed services member's religious observance.
    	" The legislation is nonsectarian and insures that the wearing
    of religious apparel will in no way interfere with the performance
    of military duty."
    
    
      
    That is the gist of the article. If you would like a copy of the
    article in its entirety,please send mail and I would be happy to
    send it out to you.
    
    David