Conference taveng::bagels

================================================================================
 BZERKR::THOMPSON            See 1.4 for Latest DIR           16-SEP-1985 13:58
 Note 19.1                  -< Jews For Jesus (?) >-                    1 of 19
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

	Jews for Jesus is a group of Jewish Christians. They believe
	that Jesus is the Messiah promised to the Patriarchs of the Bible.
	For these people, being a Jew for Jesus is less a contradiction
	then being a Jew against Jesus. BTW, at one time it was required
	for those wanting to be part of the Christian church to be or be
	converted to Judaism first. Jesus and his early followers were
	all Jews.

	I have not been to a JFJ service but have been acquainted with several
	in the group over the years. Many of them keep Kosher kitchens and
	none want to lose their identity as Jews.

Alfred
(To identify bias: I am a Christian and not a Jew though I don't view the
two as mutually exclusive)

================================================================================
 CADCAM::MAHLER              See 1.4 for Latest DIR           17-SEP-1985 08:35
 Note 19.2                  -< Jews For Jesus (?) >-                    2 of 19
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, thank you for mentioning that, Jesus WAS a Jew and many
people tend to forget that fact and it's importance to history.
I do not believe that JFJ is too far off base, but I personally
do not feel that Jesus is the lord nor the lords son, but
that does not mean that those who do suddenly do not stop being
Jews.

Mike

================================================================================
 ORC::BLOOMBERG              See 1.4 for Latest DIR           17-SEP-1985 12:15
 Note 19.3                  -< Jews For Jesus (?) >-                    3 of 19
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I have been to a JFJ service, and found it quite interesting. The
service (in Boston at the time) was not too far different from
say a Conservative Jewish Shul. There was the opening prayers in
hebrew, the Shemai, and readings of the torah in hebrew. The
close was the Isreal national anthem and adone Alom(sp).

At another Hebrew Christian congregation in Boston, Rauch Isreal,
they even had there own Cantor, from Isreal. He is from a Orthodox
Jewish Background, yet he believes Jesus to be the Jewish Messiah.
(note: that should be "..have there own Cantor..")

There is also, ABMJ, The American Board of Missions to the Jews, in
Boston and all across the U.S.A. There basically the same thing.

Then there are a bunch of independent Hebrew Christian Congragations
located in all the major cities.

This is problably more than what you ask. The point above is that
there are a LOT of hebrew Christian congragations and more springing
up.

Neil

================================================================================
 DONJON::GOLDSTEIN           See 1.4 for Latest DIR           17-SEP-1985 13:08
 Note 19.4                  -< Jews For Jesus (?) >-                    4 of 19
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A correction.  It is generally accepted among Jews (we don't have a
Pope to make final rulings, but every mainstream rabbi is in consensus)
that it is impossible to be a Jew and a Christian at the same time.
It is, of course, possible to be a Jew in the ethnic sense (which was
all that mattered to Hitler, for instance), but Judaism positively does
not accept that Yeshua Ben-Yosef (JC) is Meshiach.  It is rather like
to swearing an oath to a second deity.  Not all religions are mutually
exclusive with one another, but Judaism and Christianity are.

JFJ and some other related organizations are funded, organized and
marketed by Fundamentalist New Right christian groups.  Their "theology"
is heavily influenced by Falwellism; for example, many of their preachers
("rabbis") believe that Jewish law compells the construction of the MX
Missle and the B-1 bomber.  Some of the rituals and trappings look
Jewish -- especially to those whose understanding of religion is based
on ritual and not the meanings behind it -- but the underlying idea is
very different.  It is sad that Jewish education is so poor that many
of us have grown up with a head full of Hebrew chants and memorized
halachot without understanding what distinguishes Judaism from
Christianity.  These ritual-trained sophomores are prime targets for
JFJ cults, since they "look Jewish".

This also brings up the ancient anti-Semitic notion of the "Jewish
problem" which some rightist Christians still preach.  This
states that no one will be "saved" until the last Jew has become a
Christian.  To this end, there have been a number of crusades,
inquisitions, missions, etc. aimed at converting or otherwise ridding
the world of believing Jews.  JFJ is one of them.

================================================================================
 GRAMPS::LISS                See 1.4 for Latest DIR           18-SEP-1985 14:31
 Note 19.5                  -< Jews For Jesus (?) >-                    5 of 19
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

	Anyone who belongs to JFJ is not Jewish. JFJ accept Jesus as the
        Meshiach. This is inconsistent with Jewish belief.

	JFJ prey on the reformed and conservative Jews who may not be too
        knowledgeable about their religion. At their meetings the JFJ
        quote from a nonexistent book of the Bible (I don't remember the
        name). This book is not part of the old testament and my
        Christian friends assure me that it is not part of the new
        testament either. JFJ is one more attempt at proselytizing Jews.

	May we live to see the Meshiach in our lifetime!

			Fred

================================================================================
 THRINT::LEVY                See 1.4 for Latest DIR           20-SEP-1985 10:28
 Note 19.6                  -< Jews For Jesus (?) >-                    6 of 19
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi,

I'm not an expert on Jews for Jesus but I have heard that it
is a missionary group that is out to get Jews. As you said
the whole philosophy is a contradction in terms but the idea
is convert the Jewish members. I suppose it would be more
correct to be called something like, 'Converting Jews to
Christianity', but it dosen't have the same ring to it.

Wishing everyone a Happy New Year and well over the fast,

Malcolm

================================================================================
 DONJON::GOLDSTEIN           See 1.4 for Latest DIR           20-SEP-1985 16:37
 Note 19.8                  -< Jews For Jesus (?) >-                    8 of 19
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, Neil, forgive me for confusing Bloomberg with the usually-Jewish
name Blumberg.  Or something like that.  Not that it's relevant, but
there's a FUNDAMENTAL difference between Judaism and Christianity
in their view of Missionaries.  Christianity believes -- correct me if
I'm wrong -- that it is the One True Religion.  Therefore, Christians
feel no qualms about going around converting others, although not all
believe in using the same techniques.  Judaism, on the other hand,
is a "National" religion -- the religion of the Hebrews.  We do NOT
go around trying to convert "goyim", although followers of different
Rabbis will compete _among Jews_ for believers.  Judaism recognizes
that other peoples have their own beliefs, and we generally leave them
alone.  (I won't digress into the Mosaic vs. Noachic commandments, but
that's part of the idea.)

It follows that an effort to convert Jews to Christianity is NOT
acceptable -- we don't proseletize to others, and we don't welcome
it either.  A cult that is based upon proseletization (sp.?) is totally
anathema to Judaism and our long, rather besiged history.  JFJ is a
cult because it violates the norms of established churches in America,
and lies because it pretends to be Jewish.  ("Cult" is not a strictly
defined term; it's rather judgemental and my opinion is clear.)
JFJ uses "cult" techniques, though not as blatantly as some other cults.

My memory fails me as to which magazine last year carried a rather long
"inside" story on JFJ.  It may have been Genesis One.  The writer told
how he was befriended by some JFJ people who took him to their "shul".
He had had a pretty weak Jewish education, so their service didn't look
too weird.  But they had a curious sociopolitical agenda that was
straight out of the New Right, MX missles and all.  Eventually he got
tired of it and left, and wrote the article.

================================================================================
 SANFAN::GOODMANRO           See 1.4 for Latest DIR           20-SEP-1985 19:45
 Note 19.9                  -< Jews For Jesus (?) >-                    9 of 19
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

       The best definition that I have heard of a cult is:

       A religion or religious group that acquires or has acquired the
       majority of its members by conversion rather than by birth (i.e.
       being born to parents who are believers in that religion).

       By this definition, JFJ is a cult.

       Christianity at one time was a cult, but is now an established
       religion.  It seems that the distinction lies in the changing
       "acceptibility" of religions.  (Again, I'm speaking of
       "acceptibility" to the majority of your neighbors.  Within an
       Orthodox kibbutz large enough be a "society", Baptism might well
       be considered a cult.)

       Enough semantic quibbling!

       Roy

================================================================================
 STAR::TOPAZ                 See 1.4 for Latest DIR           20-SEP-1985 20:18
 Note 19.10                 -< Jews For Jesus (?) >-                   10 of 19
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


       Roy (.9) is right: it's silly to get hung up on semantics.

       'Jews for Jesus' is an organization whose primary purpose is to
       convert Jews to its concept of Christianity.  JFJ goes about its
       task by taking people to Jewish-looking services, and by depicting
       Jewish-looking people with Jewish-sounding names as being faithful
       both to Judaism and JFJ.  As has been pointed out elsewhere in
       this note, such a dual allegiance is impossible.

       In a free society, anyone is welcome to try to convince anyone
       else of the virtue of his cause, and there will be some who
       can be convinced.  All in all, it's an inexpensive price for
       religious freedom.

       --Don

================================================================================
 TAV02::ROSENMAN             See 1.4 for Latest DIR           23-SEP-1985 08:16
 Note 19.11                 -< Jews For Jesus (?) >-                   11 of 19
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I believe it is a fact that the majority of the JFJ group are not and
have never at anytime been Jews. This dishonesty should be a warning
to the unsophisticated that JFJ is not an aboveboard bon fide religious
movement.
As a matter of course whenever I was accosted on the streets of New York
by someone sporting a JFJ tee-shirt I usually smiled and replied "Funny
but you don't look Jewish".

================================================================================
 ORC::BLOOMBERG              See 1.4 for Latest DIR           23-SEP-1985 13:26
 Note 19.12                 -< Jews For Jesus (?) >-                   12 of 19
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are a lot of issues here to be discussed. I shall try in my best
efforts to respond to them. However, I am not an expert.

re .11
 Does a person have to look jewish to be jewish? I know for a FACT
that the leaders of JFJ are all come from jewish parents, bar-mitzvahed,
etc. The leader of the boston and NY are all from Jewish backgrounds
as well as most members.

re .8,.9, .10

 From the American Heritage dictionary I got that a cult is "..a system or
community of religious worship. 2. Obsessive devotion to a person or
idea"

However from a book on cults put out by Intervarsity Press, It states
a cult is a sect or demonination that deviates in practice or theologic
doctorine from its main religion.

 Within Christianity there are several denominations (ie baptist,
methodist, catholic,...) Just as in Judaism there is reform,
conservative, and orthodox. Docternally, all these christian groups
believe about the same thing, that Jesus is the the Messiah,
Jesus is both God and Man. Christians believe in one and only ONE God,
that All men are sinners, and your saved by faith, etc.
Doctornally, then JFJ falls into the same catagory. They believe the
same thing basically as the rest of the christian demoninations.

As far as "prostelatizing"(sp), it does say in the New testament that
we are to go forth and make disciples out of all nations. It DOES
NOT say we are to force, coerce, or use deciet in doing this. So
many times have those who call themselves christian gone out and
done terrible things in the name of christianity. One is not
born a christian as you may believe. You become a christian. A
christian is one who follows the teachings of Christ. If you do not
follow the teaching of Christ and live your life as he said you
should in the NT, then you are not a christian. so much for definition.
Most of evangelical christianity  has a program to witness to
non-christian gentiles. JFJ however chooses to aim its witnessing at
non-christian Jews. This is still the same thing and again I would
not call it a CULT.

Finally, as far as culture goes, the early christains were all Jews.
These Christians, or Nazarines as the jews called them were still
considered part of judaism. The Nazarines/Christians though they
believed in Jesus, kept kosher, and did the typical Jewish stuff.
It was not until after the destruction of the temple that there was a
break/severing of relationships. According to the book I have, small
jewish/christian churches have been around for centuries. they
became popular around 1920. so, JFJ is nothing new. it may be
different, it may even be offensive, but I would not label them a cult,
if you do then all of christianity is a cult.

Anyway, for my own edification, this is off the topic; What exactly
is a jew? is it a religion, a race of people, a tradition?

Sorry for the long winded reply
neil

================================================================================
 DONJON::GOLDSTEIN           See 1.4 for Latest DIR           23-SEP-1985 13:53
 Note 19.13                 -< Jews For Jesus (?) >-                   13 of 19
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If a religious group within our society were to have a holy book that
preached the ritual sacrifice of humans who disagreed with them, would
we accept it?  Of course not.  Just because the christian holy book,
the New Testament, says that they should proseletyze does not mean that
Jews have to accept proseletyzation.  We don't proseletyze at gentiles,
and would like to be left alone too.

The definition of the term "cult" is quite irrelevant.  The behavior
of JFJ and their doctrinal apostasy is what we're talking about.
Jesus himself was a Jew, though his teachings deviated way beyond what
Judaism encompassed.  We have our own solution to such heresy:  We ignore
them.  (I understand that christian churches and governments have over
the years resorted to somewhat different tactics.) A handful of Jews may
have followed him in his day, but christianity as we know it grew out of
the hellenic tradition, and would have gone the way of many other rabbinic
cults within Judaism had it not become a mass gentile movement.  It's just
plain irrelevant that some of his early followers were Jews.

Many people who are born Jews (ethnically or religiously) have not kept
up with the faith.  Some may have even joined JFJ.  That doesn't make
JFJ kosher.

================================================================================
 ORC::BLOOMBERG              See 1.4 for Latest DIR           24-SEP-1985 11:47
 Note 19.14                 -< Jews For Jesus (?) >-                   14 of 19
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

re -.1

You have some very good points. With freedom of Religion and speech
in this country, comes the responsiblity with it. I certianly would
not like my children to be harrassed by some hindu cult, moonies or
what ever. Yet on the other hand, if they were, I would hope that I
trained them well enough to handle themselves. I can't protect them
from everything.
   The thing about JFJ, just like any other christian group is that
they believe  that they have the "one true religion" and  that
by believing that the death of Jesus Christ is the fullfillment of
the jewish sacrificial system and that you can then gain enterance into heaven.
To the christian this is such great news that they want to share it
with everyone. They want to share the Joy of knowing a loving God
and how to live a righteous life and conquer death. It is because of
this joy that they "prostalitize" as you call it. Again,christians
are only supposted to share the raw data with the non-christian,
not force, lie, use deciet, or "prostalitize" for personal gain.
  So why am I telling you this? It is because I want you to understand
where us christians/JFJ are coming from. If Jesus is the messiah, and
he is who he says he is, then we are doing a good thing. However if
Jesus is not the messiah, then he is the worlds biggest liar and
we are more than wasting our time. you therefore owe it to stand up
against JFJ.
  Anyway, this is way off the topic. The origianal question was
to ask for information on JFJ. There have been a lot of responses
and I feel a healthy conversation has taken place. You have presented
your side of the fence and I hope I have done justice to presenting
the christian view of JFJ. There is nothing more I can say on this
topic without beating it to death. I do want to say I have enjoyed
the conversation, and hope I haven't offended anyone.

Bye for now.
Neil

================================================================================
 JOEL::BERMAN                See 1.4 for Latest DIR           24-SEP-1985 15:41
 Note 19.15                 -< Jews For Jesus (?) >-                   15 of 19
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You certainly haven't offended me. We are so lucky to live in a country where
this sort of discussion can take place.

Two questions for you.

You mentioned that the sacrafice of JC is seen as the fufillment of the
sacraficial system (as written in Leviticus I guess). I had never heard that
before. Is that a JFJ thought? Would you know if that is how Christianity
explains the end of sacrafices.

Second. If you are not aware of it, there is a whole history of people claiming
to be the Messiah, or having others claiming for them.
Over the years Jews, ever hopeful, have flocked to these
people. We are very wary of "false messiahs", and when Meshiach does come
many of us will probably not believe it.

If JC was the only person ever to be looked upon as the messiah, I would
probably think about it a lot. As it is he is one of many past candidates,
some have history of performing incredible magic. None have done the kinds
of things we expect Meshiach to do.
/joel

================================================================================
 ORC::BLOOMBERG              See 1.4 for Latest DIR           25-SEP-1985 13:06
 Note 19.16                 -< Jews For Jesus (?) >-                   16 of 19
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

re -all

          Happy Yom Kipper

re .15
  Your questions are off the topic, and technically your should start
a new note if you want to talk about JC and the sacrificial system, but
I am not picky. What an appropriate topic considering the holiday.
I do consider the topic on JFJ closed.

  It is my understanding that Yom Kipper is the day of Attonement as
prescribed in the "Torah", Lev. 16 and 17. According to these two passages
there can not be forgiveness of sin without a Blood sacrifice as set up
by God through Moses:

  "For the life of the flesh is in the blood and I have given it to you
on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by
reason of the life that makes atonement." Lev 17:11

 The Law of Moses , all 613 of them in Levitcus and Deuteronomy, also
contains the curses for breaking a particular law. Many of these
laws had the death penalty. ie Adultery, breaking the sabbath, etc.
The sacrificial system was set up so that instead of putting someone
who had just broken a law to death, an animal sacrifice could be
performed to substitue a life for a life. For those sins or breaking
of Gods laws that required the death penality, there had to be
a death or NO forgiveness of sin. This is the christian understanding
of the Torah.

 True Christianity accepts all of the Old Testament, including the
Jewish Torah, the writings of the Jewish prophets all the way to Malachi
as the word of God without error. We also accept t he New Testament
or the teaching of Jesus also as the word of God without error and
nonconflicting with the Old Testament. So everything I am telling you
is from a Christian perspective. You don't have to agree with me.

 As time went on from the Time of Moses, the sacrificial system got
out of hand and was abused. The jewish prophet Hosea said in Hos 6:6
"...I want your constant love not sacrifice"
So God set up the final sacrifice that will be for all time. He set this
up through the Jewish prophets. Jesus
Christ was to be that sacrifice. So God Came down in the form
of Man, "jesus" and offered him self up as a ransom to mankind. The whole
purpose of Jesus was to be that sacrifice to die for the sins of
man. The only catch was that you have to accept this sacrifice
with your heart and live your life for God.

 I am aware that there have been many who claim to be the Jewish
messiah, Jesus Bar Kobah around the time of JC is just one of many.
In my studies
only one person met the qualifications for messiahship as described
in the old testament and that was Jesus. What confusses many people
is that there are two messiahs described. One is a suffering servant
type who is to die. The other is a King like David who will deliver
the people into a glorious age. Christianity looks at this as the
second coming.

 The other difference with Jesus is that his teaching are more concern
with attitudes and the heart than with following lots of rules and
regulations. For me this makes being a christian at times very
difficult.

----------------------------------------------------------

I have a question for you. How does your Yom Kipper work? In
the jewish religion how do you get into heaven? Also, whats the
difference between a Jew, a hebrew and a "kohen"(spelling).?

Neil

================================================================================
 ORC::BLOOMBERG              See 1.4 for Latest DIR           25-SEP-1985 14:45
 Note 19.17                 -< Jews For Jesus (?) >-                   17 of 19
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



re .15

At the risk of getting a lot of people upset, I am going to withdraw
from this particular note.

It was fun talking to you

neil

\
================================================================================
 CADZOO::MAHLER              See 1.4 for Latest DIR           26-SEP-1985 08:17
 Note 19.18                 -< Jews For Jesus (?) >-                   18 of 19
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Errrrr.....ahem......ummmm.... that's Yom KIppUr .

Mike

Neil, why leave ?

MIke

================================================================================
 DONJON::GOLDSTEIN           See 1.4 for Latest DIR           26-SEP-1985 13:46
 Note 19.19                 -< Jews For Jesus (?) >-                   19 of 19
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: questions in .16;
	"Meshiach" means "anointed king".  If I recall, there were
seven accepted Messiahs, of that nature.  Yeshua was portrayed as being
a Messiah of a rather higher order, which Jews still await.

	"Jew" is somewhat ambiguous English, referring both to the
ethnic and the religious.  "Hebrew" is the ancient ethnic group consisting
of the followers of Abraham, who didn't create the "Jewish" religion as
we follow it until Moses, who gave the Torah.  There are three subgroups;
Cohenim are the priestly class, Levites perform other temple duties,
while the rest are Israelites.

	The sacrificial system couldn't continue after the Temple was
destroyed, so we adopted the rabinnical pattern that continues.  Only a
christian is concerned with "how do you get into heaven?".  The BIGGEST
difference between Judaism and Christianity is that Judaism is concerned
with how you live THIS life, while Christianity is concerned with the NEXT
life.  Judaism generally takes the following view (which others may
dispute -- we aren't monolithic):  We know about this life, we can't be
so sure about the next one, so don't sweat it.  Don't live for the
afterlife; G_d will take care of it.

	It follows that Judaism states that if someone treats you in a
lawful manner he is following the Lord's will, even if he hates you.
Christianity teaches that behavior is secondary to feelings.  The rabbi
I was confirmed by stated that there is no Jewish concept of "Pity",
since that is the emotion that may lead you to do well.  Instead, there
is the concept of "Mitzvot", or Commandments -- the Lord command's you
to follow his law and do the right thing, whether you feel like it or
not.
	-Fred

This is an interesting note.  I had heard about the "Jews for Jesus" 
movement, but didn't know much about it.  I once met a JFJ handing out
flyers to passersby at Fanueil Hall.  I ask him if he was a Jew, and 
he got a bit irritated, saying something like  "That's an awfully 
personal question to just go up and ask a total stranger.  What if I
ask you if you brushed your teeth this morning?".  I said, "Huh?"
He said, "Yes, I am a Jew.  I take it you are a Gentile?".  So anyway,
that's how the conversation got started off, and I wasn't exactly 
impressed.  The flyers that they were passing out showed a kid asking
his parents/relatives about Jesus, who would reply to the effect that
yes he was a good man, a good teacher, etc., but had some delusions
about being God.  On the back of the flyer it says:  "If he was such a
good man, then why don't you listen to him?".  I guess I wasn't exactly
impressed.  Of course, I should say that this was my only encounter with
the JFJ group, and I shouldn't make generalizations based upon this alone.

If it is true that the JFJ's are trying to hold part Jew part Christian
services, and trying to offer Jews a substitute Jewish religion, then
this is wrong, by virtue of the New Testament scripture which clearly
says that for believers in Jesus Christ there is no distinction of
Jew/Gentile/etc.  If anyone is interested, I can quote NT scripture
as furthermore teaching that Christians are no longer bound by the Law,
and are specifically told to not religiously adhere to it.  

So all in all, it is my view that the labels "Jew" and "Christian" are
mutually exclusive.  You cannot be both.  

As a Christian, I am told to spread the Gospel, but I don't feel
that I am knowledgable enough about the Jewish religion to approach an
informed Jew.  Since we both worship the same God, YHWH, the God of
Moses, Abraham/Isaac/Jacob, and we both hold to the testimony of the "Old
Testament" writings, then the testimony of a Christian should center around
demonstrating that Jesus of Nazareth had to be the one who fulfilled that
which was predicted by the Hebrew prophets concerning the Messiah, based 
upon scripture and reliable historical records.  I should think that this 
is the approach that a group such as the JFJs should take.  No more, no less.  

The testimony of a Christian evangelist to a Jew should be based upon diligent
study of the Jewish religion in addition to knowledge of the scriptures.  This
would provide an informed Jew with a basis as to make a decision (assuming that
he is willing to consider making such a decision), and force the uninformed 
Jew to learn about and understand his own religion better, in order to be able
to discuss the issues more knowledgably.  A subjective, "spiritual" testimony
will always accompany the objective testimony, but such objective testimony
must take priority over the subjective, because we all know that every other
guy and his brother will claim to be "inspired", or have a "personal
relationship with God", or have received "divine revelation".  In the NT
writings, we observe that the Apostles of Jesus did not just go around
approaching the Jews of their time with "Jesus is Lord, Jesus is Lord". They
presented a case by case justification of their beliefs based upon scripture
and the events that had just occurred.  Some Jews accepted the testimony,
and some rejected it.  Each person made a free will decision.

Has anyone in this file read a popular book by Hal Lindsay, called "The 
Promise"?  In this short paperback book, Lindsay presents a case for Jesus
being the Messiah, citing the scripture of the Old Testament in Hebrew, its
translation into English (our Old Testament), the corresponding New
Testament writings that he feels fulfill the Old Testament prophecy, and
various historical accounts.  Since people contributing to this file are
most likely to be of the catagory of "informed" Jews, I would be interested
if someone would read this book and comment on the validity of his arguments.
The arguments of course sound good to me, but I am not knowledgable enough
about the Jewish religion to understand what the refute of an informed Jew
would be, although Lindsay mentions several areas of disagreement that are
common in discussions with Jews on the subject.

-Garth

	    _Mother_Jones_, which arrived in the mail today, has an ad
	from JFJ.  Why would they advertise there, of all places?
	    (Fortunately, it also featured articles on the New-Right's
	connection with the Moonies and Pat "Christian Nation" Robert-
	son's possible campaign for the Presidency.)
			<_Jym_>

Two Sundays ago, a full page ad appeared in Parade Magazine, included in
many Sunday newspapers around the country, for JFJ. There was a coupon to
clip and mail in for more info.

	    Well, that at least makes some sense.  A New Right organiza-
	tion advertising in _Mother_Jones_ doesn't make any sense!
			<_Jym_>

Re -.1

What makes sense?

		Fred

    When I was going to American University, in Washington DC, there
    were two JFJs in one of my classes. One had the last name of
    Rosenberg, and the other was Goldberg. After several lengthy
    conversations with them I finally asked them if Rosenberg and
    Goldberg were there real last names. At first they were evasive
    but I was persistent. Finally one told me he legally changed his
    name to Rosenberg and the other said he "took on" the name of
    Goldberg.
    
    I would like to know why many JFJs change their names to
    stereotypical Jewish names? Were these two gentlemen an exception?
    
    			Fred
    
    

    How can Jews be Christians when for 2000 years Christians have been
    killing Jews for no other reason than that they were Jews.

     re .25:
     
     Why do you want to expose yourself as someone who speaks as if
     he is both ignorant and racist?
     
     --Don Topaz

	WHo said Jews were Christians ?  Did I miss something ?

    Re .25,.26:  For the last two centuries, a significant number
    of Christians have killed a significant number of Jews.
    They have justified this using interpretations of Christian theology.
    Recognizing this fact does not make one a racist.

    Simultaneously, to prejudge someone is clearly wrong.
    We are commanded not to "recognize faces" in judgement.
    There are good and bad Christians, just as there are good and bad
    Jews.  
    
    I hope I'm not saying anything new, but I'm beginning to wonder.

    || How can Jews be Christians when for 2000 years Christians have been
    || killing Jews for no other reason than that they were Jews.


    Assume a theological definition of Christianity, i.e., a person
    who holds certain beliefs.
    
    The "generic" [ahem] definition of a Jew includes both religious
    (conversion) and racial (son of a Jewish...) aspects.  A person
    can thus claim Jewishness on racial grounds, while simulataneously
    claiming Christianness ['scuse me] on theological grounds.
    Herein lies the old "WHAT is a Jew" debate: race or religion?
    I don't claim such a person is a good Jew, but a Jew he does remain,
    and he'll have to answer Upstairs in the end.

    	Jesus was Jewish. For about 300 years, all Christians were Jews.
    Now, what's the problem?
    
    	Ed
    

    Re .30
    
    That's not so Ed. They were apostate Jews. One cannot reject the
    Torah and remain Jewish. 
    
    			Fred
    

    re .26
    	You call me ignorant and racist but the replies after mine agree
    with me rather than you. I am still waiting for Christians to apoligize
    to me and my people for killing us over the years.
    	The Pope is supposed to be a direct spiritual descendant of
    the first Pope. Why did Pope Pius support Hitler and help
    smuggle the Nazis out of Europe? Hid he believe that what Hitler
    did was a good thing. Some say he did it to save the church. The
    bible says not to make any deals with the Devil. Did Pius think
    the end justified the means or was he like most other Christian
    leaders through the ages believing that the world would be a better
    place without Jews.
    
    			Arnie ( Never Again ) Polikoff

	I am unfamiliar with this situation Arnie, could
	you cite some headlines or articles, I would like
	to read about this.


		Mordecai the Closet Dweller.


    

    Re .30
    
    Point of information:  Gentiles started to enter the Christian religion
    within a year of the death of Jesus, two or three years at most.
    There was, for instance, the Ethiopian eunuch converted by St. Philip
    (Acts 8:26-40, if you're curious).  But this eunuch may have been a
    convert (Jews were still proseletyzing at that time, I think), so
    he might not count.  Soon thereafter, though, St. Peter authorized
    the admission of gentiles.  (Acts 10)  I don't think it took three
    centuries for gentiles to become the majority in the church.  Do
    you have any information indicating that it did?
    
    Re .25
    
    On behalf of Christendom, I apologize for killing large numbers
    of Jews.  There.  Now, would you like to extend a similar apology
    to the Palestinians?
    
    Earl Wajenberg

     re .36 (re .35):
     
     I took Earl's remarks totally differently.  It seems to me that he is
     suggesting (quite properly) that it is no less absurd to blame [all]
     Jews for the injustices suffered by Palestinians than it is to blame
     [all] Christians for the injustices suffered by Jews in the past.
     
     --Don

    Mr. Topaz has in fact caught the intent of my remark.  My apologies
    for being too obscure.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    My apologies if I took your comments the wrong way, and if through
    my interpretation I unfairly accused you of something you did not
    intend.
    
    Jack

    Just because people who kill Jews call themselves christians doesn't
    mean that we have to call them christians,for they are not.
    Real christians show love not hate,especially to Gods chosen people.

    	I saw a little J4J ad in the Boston Globe this morning, with a
    phone number to call for further propaganda.  It's a 1-900 number, not
    a 1-800 number, meaning that the caller pays for the call, and in
    *very* fine print it says you will be billed $2 for the call.

    	Is this a good sign that they can't afford the full page ads
    anymore, and that they can't afford to pay for calls?  I hope so. 
    Maybe they got tired of getting crank calls from the likes of me.  :-)

    		David

I picked up a J4J leaflet yesterday while walking in the Quincy Market area
of Boston with my family. The person dispensing the leaflets had the word
"kosher" in Hebrew on his shirt. Made me mad -- it should have said "treif".

It contained a Cambridge Ma. phone number for J4J and if anyone wants it I'd
be glad to share it with you.

Dave