Conference taveng::bagels

    I don't know about Rav Soloveitchik, but Rav Goren has published an article 
    on this. I can lend it to you if you want. 
    -Itzhak

There was an article in Issues in Contemporary Halacha  about this issue a 
few years ago.

Basically there are 3 opinions on this. Chazon Ish which says the line is 90 
degrees East of Jerusalem, but that a continent may not be split. So Australia
is ahead of Jerusalem; however Japan is just on the other side of the line
and therefore the Chazon Ish holds that Shabbat in Japan should be observed
on what most of the world considers to be Sunday in Japan. Incidentally,
Hong Kong is on the side of this line where Shabbat is really on Saturday;
so if you ever wondered why some people who are in the Far East end up
in Hong Kong for Shabbat that is one reason.

There is another opinion that the line is 180 degrees East from Jerusalem. 
Using this shita Japan is ahead of Jerusalem and Shabbat is Saturday. There
might be a problem in Alaska, but if a contiguous continent is not split 
then Alaska is ok. The interesting situation here is Hawaii. According to this
opinion Hawaii is ahead of Jerusalem and thus Shabbat in Hawaii would be
what the rest of the world considers to be Friday in Hawaii. 

Finally, there is one opinion which suggests that there is a dateline that
is widely accepted and we should just use that. Practically speaking that
is what the various communities in all these places have chosen to do.

FWIW, the International Date Line jogs around Tonga.  There's no Jewish
community there, but the Seventh Day Adventists observe their sabbath
on what everybody else there regards as Sunday.

    I've been to Tonga.  Part of the reason that the Seventh Day Adventists
    may have chosen Sunday is becuase the country shuts down on that day.
    
    Locals are not allowed to drive cars, swimming is illegal etc.  The
    description "Bible belt of the Pacific" is an understatement.
    
    On the other hand, the Tongan church singing is beautiful.
    
    				Paul
    

    The whole country lies east of where the International Dateline would
    otherwise fall, but the king (it is the last remaining absolute
    monarchy in Polynesia) decided that the country would be in the same
    date as New Zealand, its major trading partner, so it is.  There is no
    local Jewish community there, so I don't know what date would be used
    by one.  Paul even asked our rabbi what day we should consider to be
    shabbas, and the answer was to follow the local Jewish community....
    If there were ever to be one, I would think that it would be simplest
    to do what the Seventh-Day Adventists did and go by the time zone Tonga
    would naturally fall in, rather than by the king's decree, which would
    put shabbas on local Sunday.  The whole place closes up by law by local
    Saturday early afternoon, and everything is closed down until local
    Monday morning.  Driving, swimming, etc. are illegal - though this is
    not enforced on foreigners (just as well for us).  Yes, the singing was
    really something special to hear.  One does wonder what the native
    culture was like before the missionaries got to it - though I believe
    the a capella singing predated their arrival - the Tongans had a
    fiercer reputation than the Fijians in the early days.
    
    /Charlotte (wife of Paul YOUNG::young)

There was a set of Islands that was on the Japan/New Zealand
side of the dateline but set its date based on the other side of the line.
This had to do with US posessions or something. Anyway they decided to
cut over to the date all their neighbors were on. So, people went to
sleep Friday night, woke up 8 hours later and it was Sunday morning.

yf

>
>Basically there are 3 opinions on this. Chazon Ish which says the line is 90 
>degrees East of Jerusalem, but that a continent may not be split. So Australia
>is ahead of Jerusalem; however Japan is just on the other side of the line
>and therefore the Chazon Ish holds that Shabbat in Japan should be observed
>on what most of the world considers to be Sunday in Japan. 

I saw the Chazon Ish and he does mention Shanghai specifically as being BEFORE
Jerusalem; why would any other part of Japan be any different?

Thanks,

Cb.

re: 1431.7

>I saw the Chazon Ish and he does mention Shanghai specifically as being BEFORE
>Jerusalem; why would any other part of Japan be any different?
Maybe because, contrary to the wishes of Imperial Japan circa 1930's & 40's,
Shanghai is part of mainland China?

Shavuah tov,

Bobbi

>                            -< Geography lesson:-) >-

Yeah, Geography was one of my poorer subjects.

At any rate, after looking at a globe I can see why the Chazon Ish would have
said that Shanghai would be BEFORE Jerusalem since it is part of mainland China
and although it is really East of the "Halachik" dateline, the Chazon Ish is of
the opinion that the "Halachik" dateline does NOT cut bodies of land. On the
other hand, Japan is made of several small islands which are separated from the
mainland and at least some of them (perhaps all of them) are definitely East of
the "Halachik" dateline which would put them 18 hours BEHIND Jerusalem.

Thanks,

Cb.

    The subject was a hot one during World War II when Jews rescued in
    Japan and asked what to do for Yom Kippur. The answer of Rav Herzog
    (and the majority of the Poskim agreed with him) was to fast on
    Wednesday. The answer of the Hazon Ish was to fast a day after. 
    The majority of the Jews act as decided by Rav Herzog and a minority as
    the Hazon Ish's decision. A very small number fast 2 days. Details of
    the dispute and a very detailed study of the subject can be found in
    one of the book of Rav Kasher: Kav Hattarich Haisraeli.
    
    The son of Rav Kashed testified that The Rav Solovetchik refused to
    take any decision and to even speak on the subject because there are no
    discussion on it in the Talmud.
    
    As mentioned in the Rav KAsher's book, we can distinguish between 3
    periods in the Poskim:
    
    	- First Rishonim (before the discovery of America)
    	- Rishonim after the discovery of America
    	- Poskim during the last 80/90 years
    
    Since there is no real source in the Talmud for this problem, he says
    that we must rely on logic (majority of the continent in the 90 degrees
    part or not) to solve the question and on facts (how
    jewish communities are acting in Australia for example: Majority of
    Australia is not in the 90 degrees part but Jews in Sydney are
    celebrating Shabbath on Saturday and not on sunday).
    
    Haim