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Conference taveng::bagels

Title:BAGELS and other things of Jewish interest
Notice:1.0 policy, 280.0 directory, 32.0 registration
Moderator:SMURF::FENSTER
Created:Mon Feb 03 1986
Last Modified:Thu Jun 05 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:1524
Total number of notes:18709

1204.0. "lamb vrs chicken on passover" by DNEAST::SPECTOR_DAVI () Fri Apr 10 1992 00:55

    
    
    	Why isn't lamb the traditional seder mainstay instead of chicken 
    	nowadays ? I seem to remember something about it being so in
        bibical times.
    
    
    Thanks,
    David
    
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1204.1An AnswerCXCAD::BERZONFri Apr 10 1992 05:2020
    Jewish religion/tradition/history/Torah has a lot of symbolism built
    in.  On Pesah we have a number of such symbols. The bitter herbs are
    suppose to remind us of the bitter days of enslavement by the
    Egyptians (and others for that matter), the Matzos are a symbol of the
    unlevined bread that Jews ate in Egypt (it fills you up fast, and is
    faster baked), the chicken is a symbol of the sacrificial lamb.  As you
    may recall, the door frames of the Jewish households in Egypt were
    marked with the blood of a lamb so that the Jewish households could be
    PASSed OVER (therefore the name of the Holy Days) when the punishment
    was inflicted upon Egyptians.  These were the original Mezuzos.
    I have actually been to saiders were there was lamb served, but the
    idea behind chicken, is that it is cheaper, and simpler and tastes that
    way.  This way we can more easily experience the life in Egypt and the
    Exodus - as we all should during these Holydays.  By the way this is
    also the reason why we shouldn't use spices in the saider meal (or
    else it will taste too good :-)
    
    Hope this helps,
    Jake
    
1204.2An answerBYENG0::PMEDIONIFri Apr 10 1992 20:1968
I access this conference since last summer (found it preparing a trip in
Israel), but this the first time I feel I may contribute.

As jack writes it, the composition of the Seder plate includes symbols.

It refers to the complete set of Mitsvoth (observance) one was able to fulfil
when going to Jerusalem to celebrate Pesah.
The key point was the comsumption of a piece of the Pesah, the lamb that has
been brought for sacrifying in the temple on Pesah eve. 

The Pesah lamb should be grilled, not stewed. 
It was shared between the members of a family or of a group and eaten at the
very end of the Seder meal.

To add to the joy of the festival, if the group was big and therefore each share
 of lamb small, another offering meat was eaten: the Korban (offering) Chagigah
 (from Chag, festival).

Because the offerings can be made only at the Temple of Jerusalem, it is not 
possible to have Pesah or Chaggigah since the destruction of the temple.

On the seder plate (not all components listed, refer to your Haggadah book):

the Matshoth relates to the Mitsva of Matsa eating at the time of the Pesah
meal (that we do accomplish),

the Marror (e.g. "bitter" salat) to accomplish the mitsva of Matsa eating at
the Pesah meal (that we do accomplish), 

the bone to remember the Mitsva of eating the Pesah itself (that can be
offered only in the temple),

the egg to remember the Korban Haggigah (than can be offered only in the
temple).

To make sure that noone confuses the regular meat eaten at the Seder with the
meat of the Pesah, it is not allowed to eat grilled lamb during the seder meal.
That why, on the Seder plate, a dry bone is the symbol of the Pesah itself.
It reminds also that the bones of the Pesah lamb should not have been broken.

For a similar reason an egg is the symbol of the meat of the Haggigah (and not
meat).

On Jack point, I must say that we (my family is north Africa Sefardi)
do have some lamb meat during the seder meal but never grilled. 

Other family or town custom traditions extend the avoidance of grilled lamb to
any preparation of lamb meat. 

I guess that roasting the egg adds to the symbol symbol of the Chagigah the
reminder that the Pesah Lamb meat should be grilled. 

One more point, to maintain the Seder (order) of the Pesah meal, an additional
symbol remembers the actual eating of Pesah at the end of the meal: The
Afikomen - A piece of matsah eaten with Marror by every member of the group
when the meal is over.


It is a bit technical, but I hope, it answers the question ?


Pesah kasher vesameach,


and Shabat Shalom

 
1204.3We're having pot roastNOTIME::SACKSGerald Sacks ZKO2-3/N30 DTN:381-2085Fri Apr 10 1992 20:576
re .1:

As .2 points out, roasted lamb is forbidden these days because people might
think it's the real Korban Pesach.  There's nothing sacred about chicken.
Many people have the custom of not eating anything roasted, including
chicken.
1204.4Yes, but...CXCAD::BERZONSat Apr 11 1992 00:398
    That was an even better (kosher) answer I must admit. 
    But my name is JAKE, not Jack, and I don't know why *many* Jews insist
    on calling me JACK.  Please, Jake is to YAKOV, as Jack is to IVAN.
    I am not an Ivan, by any means.
    
    JAke
    
    
1204.5thanks TNPUBS::STEINHARTLauraSat Apr 11 1992 03:354
    Thank you Jake Berzon.  It was good to learn this, and to get some
    insight into your North African customs.
    
    L
1204.6Thanks for the info.DNEAST::SPECTOR_DAVIMon Apr 13 1992 20:456
    Re: 1-5
    
    
    	Thanks, for all the enlightening information.
    
    	David
1204.7I am not the one from AfricaCXCAD::BERZONWed Apr 15 1992 00:053
    Re. 5:  Ok, you got my name right, but I am not the one from Africa,
    that was the other guy.
    
1204.8correctionTNPUBS::STEINHARTLauraWed Apr 15 1992 02:513
    Right.  I owe my thanks to Mr./Ms. Medioni.
    
    L