Conference taveng::bagels

Shalom Serge,

I believe that VNS uses word-for-word extractions from normal news services
(ie: AP, various newspapers).  If this is true for this case, then our
criticisms should be aimed at the original source.  If this is indeed an
editorial comment from the VNS contributor, then we should all back up your
complaint.

So, please check out the details and let us know.

L'hit,
Gavriel

Hello,
    
    My english is certainly no good, but the memo I just receive from the
    VNS contributor,see below, show us that he has put comments in middle 
    of normal news.
    I am not agree with Richard (Contributor) when he said "I was merely
    reporting the FACT".
    
    As to me we have to be vigilant (watchful) with all internal news.
    
    Wait for your comments.                                                  
    
    Shalom
    
    Serge Rozenblum.
    Evry France
    
    
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    d i g i t a l
                   I N T E R O F F I C E   M E M O R A N D U M

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                                   Mail address:  DEMORGAN@COMICS@KERNEL@MRGATE@THESUN@UVO 
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TO:  ROZENBLUM.SERGE@A1@EVOAI1@FRMRC@RDGMTS


Subject: RE: vogon news

I fail to see what you appear to be complaining about. My comment about
Mr Kaufmann was parenthetical (admittedly I should have probably put it
in square brackets to denote an editorial comment - if I put it at the
bottom it makes it harder for people to read). I have no opinion on what the
majority of views think - I was merely reporting the FACTS.

	- Richard.

                                                               

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I agree that the comment is crude and is editorializing.  If Mr
    Kaufmann was a member of an organization that would pertain to the
    discussion then it might be mentions such as member of B'nai Brith
    ot member of Supporters of the PLO it would be background information.
    
    But in truth it in extremely unlikely that he is Jewish as he uses
    the double final n.  Germans who are not Jews use this to distinguish
    themselves from Jews.  There were in the past some thinly veiled
    US anti-semtic product advertise,ents with the announcer ending the ad
    with "remember we spell our name  with a double n."
    
    WS

                      <<< Note 623.3 by USACSB::SCHORR >>>
                 -< Just the facts and nothing but the facts >-

<    But in truth it in extremely unlikely that he is Jewish as he uses
<    the double final n. 


   Gerald Kaufman, the Opposition spokesman on foreign affairs (UK),
   is definitely Jewish. He's not Orthodox - possibly not a member of
   any shul - but he certainly identifies himself as Jewish. 

   I believe he spells his name with one n, also!



   Marge

    re: .2
    
    I believe there is a lack of awareness of our sensitivity to the
    term "Jew" as opposed to using "Jewish".  The Boston Globe displayed
    this a while back in reference to the Canadian Jewish financier
    (I believe there is an earlier note on it) buying Jim Bakker's heritage
    park -"Orthodox Jew buys Bakker property" was the headline or something
    to that effect.
    
    The fact is that the gentile world has to be educated to the fact
    that it is irrelevant whether someone is Jewish or not in these
    cases.
    
    David

    re: -1
    
    I don't think that it is so much a matter of "educating" the gentile
    world;  it is more a matter of understanding Boston Globe editorial
    policy.  The headline, I recall vividly, read "JEW BUYS PTL".
    The New York Times ran the story as a real-estate deal. 
    
    In another expression of its bias, the Globe, last week, ran the
    story of the Israel-Moscow basketball game in a couple of 
    paragraphs at the bottom of the obituary page.

    Hi,
    
    I don't think that it is irrelevant to point out that Gerald Kaufman
    is Jewish. If you know a persons background it can help understand
    how they arrived at their present position. 
 
    Having said this, I think that the problem with the VNS extract is the 
    implication that Kaufmans views are Jewish and therefore reasonable or 
    even commonly shared amongst other Jews.
    
    Malcolm

    re: .6
    
    In regards to the Maccabi-TA basketball game, I wouldn't have known
    that it had taken place if I didn't read Maariv.
    
    David

    After all that build-up about the basketball game, who won?
    
    				Paul
    

RE .7: 
>    Having said this, I think that the problem with the VNS extract is the 
>    implication that Kaufmans views are Jewish and therefore reasonable or 
>    even commonly shared amongst other Jews.

No, I think the problem is the insinuation that it is surprising that a 
JEWISH politician would do something seemingly against Israeli interests/
policies... thus (falsely as it happens) suggesting that a JEWISH
British politician is less devoted or loyal to British interests than
would be a non-Jewish politician. THAT is the insidious suggestion that
lies behind such comments as the Vogon's editor's "innocent" remark.

I am sure that MANY Americans believe that a Jew in Washington will put
Israeli interests ahead of American interests, or at any rate ALONGSIDE
them. (Perhaps it is too bad it is false, but it is false!)

-Zaitch

ps/ who won the basketball game, nu?

Maccabi Tel Aviv beat CSKA Moscow.

    Hello,
    
    Firstly I think that most of you are from US, and I think you think
    to much as American jewish.
    I am not against you of course, but it would be good to think not
    for one state but for the communitee on the world.
    In Europe many people think that American are interested by US and
    USSR that all.
    
    Some of readers of bagels like me aren't American. And particularly
    I don't Boston Globe ..., and I don't care with it.
    
    Even if for you to read a litle sentence in news, which insinuate
    that someone is Jew or Jewish or something else, isn't immportant.
    I think in US you are strong enough to do your news and I think
    you don't care with insinuation. But in France we don't think like
    that. 
    
    So if we don't react against the contibutor (Richard Demorgan) we
    will miss our job.
    
    Shalom
    
    Serge Rozenblum
    Evry France

    re: .12
    
    Serge,
    
    I don't think anyone in this note was expressing anything germain
    to an "American Jewish" point of view.  The Boston Globe example
    was brought out to show a journalistic usuge of "Jew".  This topic
    seems pretty universal to me.  How would you react to a headline
    in a Paris newspaper that read "Juif marche PTL"?
    
    David 

    Hello,
    
    As to me the best reaction should be that everybody send  a letter
    to Richard Demorgan.
    If we don't react Richard or someone else would keep writing bad
    news.
    Let be vigilant and react after each problem, that what I want to
    do.
    
    Shalom
    Serge Rozenblum

    What does "tendentious" mean?
    
    

                   
     - .1
    

    tendentious -  promoting or implying a particular point of view;
                   biased

    It's interesting that the originator of this complaint is the same
    person who, in note 621.2, smeared Poles as anti-semites.  I
    guess bigotry and stereotyping only counts in one direction.  
    

>    It's interesting that the originator of this complaint is the same
>    person who, in note 621.2, smeared Poles as anti-semites.  I
>    guess bigotry and stereotyping only counts in one direction.  

    I suspect he has some reason to believe it.  I do.  When WWII
    ended, my father got out of Auschwitz and my mother got out of
    Bergen-Belsen and they both returned to their home town of Radom.

    There they waited for family and friends to return.  No one on my
    mother's side survived.  One of my father's brothers survived.  He
    returned, elated to see that his fiancee had also survived.  They
    immediately arranged a wedding.

    My father was late getting to the reception.  When he arrived, he
    found a massacre.  A group of Poles had come into the reception
    area "to finish up what the Nazis were not able to do" and had
    gunned down everyone there.

    The violence and hatred displayed by the Poles toward the Jews
    after the war was so intense that my parents left.  So did nearly
    the entire Jewish population of Poland.

    Several years ago, at the Gathering of Jewish Holocaust Survivors
    in Washington D.C., my father saw, and recognized, a cousin.  He
    recognized him because he looked like his father had looked forty
    years before.  He found out from this cousin that he had yet
    another cousin who was living Warsaw.

    In order to be able to contact him, he had to do it clandestinely
    through a Jew in the Finnish embassy, who set it up.  The cousin
    in Poland made it abundantly clear how overt and virulent the
    antisemitism *still is* in Poland.

    Believe it or not, not everyone claims to be unbigoted.  There are
    people who are bigoted who know it and proclaim it proudly. 
    Restating it is not an accusation, merely an acknowledgment.

    Sid
    

    Re: .18
    
    You're missing the point, which is stereotyping.  Or is it okay
    to assume that everyone who is Jewish or Israeli approves of, say,
    shooting Palestinian girls in the back of the head because I can
    recite a litany of such actions by the IDF?
    

    Ahhhhh.... I see we all have the good fortune to have Ms. Kolling
    back with us in Bagels again.
    
    Just must be our lucky time again.
    
      Alan

    re. -1
    
    When the Israeli population agrees to the construction and operation
    of extermination camps for Arabs, you can call them Anti-Arab without
    any fear of being accused of stereotyping.
    
    I think that those you are addressing will agree that some Poles
    did save Jews.  And if you want to know who they are, I suggest
    that you visit the Avenue of the Righteous in Jerusalem.

    
>    I think that those you are addressing will agree that some Poles
>    did save Jews.  

    Absolutely.  My parents were not captured by the Nazis until 1943
    because they were hidden by a non-Jewish Polish family.  If that
    had not been the case, it is unlikely they would have survived.

    That does not change the fact that anti-Semitism is and was
    rampant in Poland.

    Sid

    Hello,
    
    I completly agree with the note .22
    
    But Poland is the only state beeing antisemitism without any jews living
    there. (I think only 1000 jews are still in Poland, and most of
    them are completly comunist).
    
    I agree that some jews are non jews don't follow Israel
    decision concerning Palstinian. We are democrat, and we don't obliged
    someone. But when you are supposed to give NEWS and only NEWS you
    have no right to mix news and your fellings.
    
    I personaly think that jews people living abroad from Israel have
    no right to criticize Israel decision in front of TV or radio.
    Sometime I  am not agree with Israel but I keep my fellings for
    myself or for my family.
    I know that living in France I have not all the informations to
    judge.
    
    Shalom
    Serge

    Re: .21
    
    Miss Kolling can't go visit the Avenue of the Righteous in Jerusalem. 
    Miss Kolling doesn't feel morally able to go to Jerusalem, remember?
    :~)

    Serge,
    
    Don't offer ratholes, and don't make mistakes similar to the ones
    you critizise.
    
>    But Poland is the only state beeing antisemitism without any jews living
>    there. (I think only 1000 jews are still in Poland, and most of
>    them are completly comunist).
    
    If they are jewish, and you, at the same time, insist on mentioning
    that they are communists, you are in danger of running into a
    rhetorical and logical conflict with your critique on a news editor
    denominating a British MP as being Jewish. In other words: are the 1000
    Polish Jews less Jewish because they are communists? Or is the MP less
    British because he is Jewish? I do know what you mean, but you are
    exposing your arguments to unnecessary attack. 

>    I agree that some jews are non jews don't follow Israel
>    decision concerning Palstinian. We are democrat, and we don't obliged
>    someone. But when you are supposed to give NEWS and only NEWS you
>    have no right to mix news and your fellings.
     
    Are you this sure that the editor made a deliberate anti-semitic
    comment? You may be right; nevertheless, to deduce feelings from a
    quickly typed comment is dangerous. 

>    I personaly think that jews people living abroad from Israel have no
>    right to criticize Israel decision in front of TV or radio. Sometime I
>    am not agree with Israel but I keep my fellings for myself or for my
>    family.
    
    You are in conflict, here, with your statement about democracy, if you
    are read without the reader speaking French. In this particular case,
    "have no authority" or "are not entitled to" would have been a more
    accurate semantical interpretation of "n'ont pas le droit". 
    
>    I know that living in France I have not all the informations to judge.
    
    I don't know about Paris, but here, in the Nice area, we have a Jewish
    radio station, Shalom Nissan, sending news in both Hebrew and French.
    They usually have a pretty lot of complementary comments on what's
    shown and said in the French TV or radio evening news about Israel.
    Such a radio station keeps you pretty well informed about what's going
    on in the Middle East. France is not isolated of the worldwide comm's
    networks. If you wish, you CAN be informed (what about LeMonde?). 
    
    Correctingly yours,
    
    Chris

    re .26
    
>>    But Poland is the only state beeing antisemitism without any jews living
>>    there. (I think only 1000 jews are still in Poland, and most of
>>    them are completly comunist).
>    
>    If they are jewish, and you, at the same time, insist on mentioning
>    that they are communists, you are in danger of running into a
>    rhetorical and logical conflict with your critique on a news editor
>    denominating a British MP as being Jewish.

    The point Serge was making was that anti-semites in Poland do not even
    have an excuse of pointing out that polish jews are anti-communist,
    which would be a major, if not the only, "justifiable" reason for
    anti-semitism in a communist state. You know, a typical rumor would be:
    "the polish people are working hard to build socialism, and there are
    shortages, and suddenly somebody discovers gold in a synagogue that was
    ready for shipment to Israel..." How many jews he said there were
    left in Poland?

    On the "Jew" remark in VNS: It didn't smell clean to me, but I would
    not make a big deal out of it. One or two notes to the author will
    suffice, if somebody has to make a statement. If such editorial comments
    intensify, then we'd know where the author is coming from.    
    
    Alex

re: a few previous notes.

Once again, it appears necessary to point out to the participants that
all Dec employees are welcome to participate in Bagels.  They are also
reminded of the Law as taught by Hillel:

   Do not do onto others what is hateful onto yourself.

Martin Minow
co-moderator, Bagels.

    Hello,
    
    "Jewish still living in Poland might be communist".
     
    Everybody know that most of the survival of camps left Poland to
    go to Israel or elsewhere.
    Those who remain in Poland believe that it was their country and
    that communist was the right political party. If this jews are still
    persuade that communist is good for jewish people and if they are
    happy living there, so I am happy for them.          
    My only wish is that our  brother of Poland are happy. 
    But it doesn't change the antisemitism problem in Poland.
    I would be happy to be wrong and to believe that Polish aren't
    antisemitism. I would be happy to visist this country and to see
    where my gran-parents lived. But I still have my gran-parents and
    they told me a lot of things about this country. Things that I can't
    write because it's too much. And I believe them because they saw
    the reality of this country.
    
    
    "You have no right to speak in front of TV agianst Israel".
    
    Ok  everybody can do everything he wants in democratie , and I am
    happy of that.
    But sometimes if you critizise Israel in front of TV you will help
    people who are trying to destruct this country.
    I will never to do that because I don't live in Israel, even if
    we have Jewish-radio in France. But we ARE NOT confront with the
    difficulties of life that exist in Israel (Israel/Arab problem).
    I have no right to give advice to Israel . They certainly made error
    but everybody is making error.
    I don't want to forbid to jewish people to speak in public , I don't
    want to give advice I just wanted to point out.
    I just wanted to give my feelings .
    
    P.S: For french people.
    
    The newpaper Le Monde is certainly the best we can find in France,
    but they are not particularly positive for Israel. But they do their
    job.
    That's why I only read Jewish newspaper "Jerusalem Post".
    
    
    Shalom
    Serge Rozenblum
    

>
> 621.2 from ROZENBLUM_S
>    My grand parents are from Poland, and all my family know that this
>    country was a bloody country. We don't like this country. Polish
>    people is certainly the most antisemitism people we can find on
>    earth.
> 621.5 from ROZENBLUM_S
>    I will prefer a jewish writter but certainly not a poland writter.
>    They have the habits to modify the true.
> 621.10 from ROZENBLUM_S
>    My grand-mother read it in Poland 50 years ago and she told me that it was
>    certainly the only one book non-antisemitism written by polish.

	BAGELS was the last place I expected to find such insensitivity.

> 623.18 from SNYDER
>    My father was late getting to the reception.  When he arrived, he
>    found a massacre.  A group of Poles had come into the reception
>    area "to finish up what the Nazis were not able to do" and had
>    gunned down everyone there.
>    The violence and hatred displayed by the Poles toward the Jews
>    after the war was so intense that my parents left.  So did nearly
>    the entire Jewish population of Poland.

	For several years after 1945 there was an internal war going on
	in Poland. Polish communists were killing Poles who were against
	the Soviet-imposed system. The communists were being killed too.

	These were extremely brutal and desperate times. Frequent were
	KGB-organized provocations which aimed to negatively influence
	Western public opinion towards Poland, making it thus politically
	easier for the Soviet Union to isolate Poland from the West.

> 623.21 from GOLDBERG
>    When the Israeli population agrees to the construction and operation
>    of extermination camps for Arabs, you can call them Anti-Arab without
>    any fear of being accused of stereotyping.
>    I think that those you are addressing will agree that some Poles
>    did save Jews.  And if you want to know who they are, I suggest
>    that you visit the Avenue of the Righteous in Jerusalem.

	Remember that it was the Germans who built and run the camps
	in occupied Poland, and not the Poles, as you seem to imply.

	Remember that Poland was the only occupied country with a death
	penalty for anybody helping Jews. The German rule was absolute.

	Remember that at the Yad Vashem memorial to honor those who saved
	Jews there are more righteous Christians from Poland than from
	any other country.

> 623.27 from ALLISTER
>> 623.23 from ROZENBLUM_S
>>    But Poland is the only state beeing antisemitism without any jews living
>>    there. (I think only 1000 jews are still in Poland, and most of
>>    them are completly comunist).
>    The point Serge was making was that anti-semites in Poland do not even
>    have an excuse of pointing out that polish jews are anti-communist,
>    which would be a major, if not the only, "justifiable" reason for
>    anti-semitism in a communist state. You know, a typical rumor would be:
>    "the polish people are working hard to build socialism, and there are
>    shortages, and suddenly somebody discovers gold in a synagogue that was
>    ready for shipment to Israel..." How many jews he said there were
>    left in Poland?

	No, the point is that none of you have lived in Poland, where the
	true divisions among people are much more complex than you could
	speculate. For example, Jerzy Urban is the press secretary of the
	Polish communist government, and Adam Michnik and Bronislaw Geremek
	are the leaders of the democratic opposition. According to the U.S.
	media, they all are Polish Jews...

	Piotr Koziol

reply to < Note 623.30 by TALLIS::KOZIOL "Perestroika+Glasnost=Destroika" >


>                        -< life is more complicated... >-

	Indeed...

>>	BAGELS was the last place I expected to find such insensitivity.

>>	These were extremely brutal and desperate times. Frequent were
>>	KGB-organized provocations which aimed to negatively influence
>>	Western public opinion towards Poland, making it thus politically
>>	easier for the Soviet Union to isolate Poland from the West.

>>	Remember that it was the Germans who built and run the camps
>>	in occupied Poland, and not the Poles, as you seem to imply.
>>
>>	Remember that Poland was the only occupied country with a death
>>	penalty for anybody helping Jews. The German rule was absolute.
>>
>>	Remember that at the Yad Vashem memorial to honor those who saved
>>	Jews there are more righteous Christians from Poland than from
>>	any other country.

>>	No, the point is that none of you have lived in Poland, where the
>>	true divisions among people are much more complex than you could
>>	speculate. For example, Jerzy Urban is the press secretary of the
>>	Polish communist government, and Adam Michnik and Bronislaw Geremek
>>	are the leaders of the democratic opposition. According to the U.S.
>>	media, they all are Polish Jews...


	I have a suggestion.

	Please watch the movie "Shoah".  Listen to the live interviews with
	the Poles, for several hours of the movie.  Then ....

/don feinberg

       
    I don't think that we need to have a contest for "most anti-semitic
    country".  There would be many finalists.
    
    My mother's entire immediate family was betrayed by their Polish
    [non-Jewish] neighbors who pointed out their bunker to the Nazis.
    Their house and the all the buildings around their courtyard which were
    owned by other members of my mother's extended family still
    exist...they are occupied by the children of these "neighbors" who
    somehow no longer remember the original owners or how they came to
    leave.  There are some similar instances portrayed in the "Shoah" film. 
    
    We have a cousin who goes back yearly to tend the cemeteries in
    my mother's town and in a few others.  His stories of present day
    anti-semitism (with hardly any Jews) continue to sadden me. 
     
    BTW, the Danes also were occupied by the Nazis and were requested to
    turn in "their Jews".  Their King put on a yellow star as did much of
    the population. 


    

    Re: .23
    

    Their house and the all the buildings around their courtyard which were
    owned by other members of my mother's extended family still
    exist...they are occupied by the children of these "neighbors" who
    somehow no longer remember the original owners or how they came to
    leave.  

Sounds startingly like the situation in Israel proper, where many
Jewish families now occupy homes belonging to Palestinians who were
murdered or driven into exile.

From Gordon. Banks:

When I was in Israel I was at the home of a Jewish Professor in Jerusalem.
It was an elegant old house, built way back at the time of the Crusades.
I learned that it had been in the hands of the same family of Arab
merchants from the 11th Century until 1967 when it was "abandoned".  I
imagined how that family must have felt to leave the home it had occupied
for so long, and was ashamed for the current occupant and for myself
enjoying someone else's property without their permission.
    

> 623.32 from FEINBERG
>
> Please watch the movie "Shoah".  Listen to the live interviews with
> the Poles, for several hours of the movie.  Then ....

	I did watch the movie. Which of the facts I stated in 623.30
	do you want to discuss further ?

	Piotr Koziol

    re: .34
    
    Ah yes, the voice Of "democratic arab Palastine" speaks again.
    
    David

    re .31
    
    Chris,
    
    I am not happy myself with my note (and 623.*), although mine is
    relatively mild. I even considered deleting it, and the only reason I
    did not delete it, is that I did not invent the situation. In my
    "sojourn" in the East, I have heard rumours just like that, with the
    follow up increase in tensions. 
    
    Now I must tell you that I am somewhat of a slavophile, actually
    more than "somewhat", and it pains me that Slavic peoples have,
    after nazi germany, and medieval spain, probably the worst record
    of anti-semitism. "Pogrom" is now an "international" word.
    
    There is a tragic joke that if one asks anybody in Poland or
    Ukraine: "What do you think about killing Jews and carpenters?",
    the typical response would be: "It's OK, but why carpenters?"

    I am not stereotyping all Slavs as anti-semites, but I am invoking the
    historic track record. Of course there are millions of non-anti-semitic
    Slavs, and of course there are thousands of Slavs (including clergymen)
    who risked their lives to save Jews in WWII. It is, also, NOT TRUE that
    anti-semitism was always a Polish government policy. Marshal Pilsudski
    is a bright recent example of a leader who opposed anti-semitism. 
    
> can anybody tell me ONE country where anti-semitism is NOT
>    existent, either overt or rampant? 

    I don't know. Netherlands? Denmark?

    Alex

Piotr,

I am disturbed by your note.  I didn't notice you quoting facts, rather
you made simplistic assertions to explain complex events.  
Perhaps you feel you were provoked by Serge's
(almost) equally simplistic distortions, but you seem to have a better
grasp on both the English language and on the facts of Polish history,
and therefore perhaps more could be expected???

First, why would you expect Bagels to be the last place to find
insensitivity?  It sounds like the implication is that because Jews have
been oppressed and have suffered without cause at the hands of others,
they should therefore be saints and exemplary human beings.  This surely
doesn't reflect human nature as I have met it; abuse and oppression do little
to improve people's character.  Unfortunately, this is not as irrelevant
and flippant a point as you might think - the uncomfortable fact that a 
victim can be an even crueler victimizer is the crux of the issue when we
consider the relationship of Poles to Jews in the 20th century.

Second, while you are correct in pointing out that it was Germans who set up
camps in Poland, not the Poles, perhaps you would care to reflect on the
interesting fact that the Germans didn't try to set up death factories in,
say, France, or Denmark, or Belgium... I can think of a few reasons for this
along the lines of demographics and transportation considerations,
but I cannot imagine that the depth and virulence of traditional Polish 
anti-semitism was not an important factor in the decision.

Although documentation of the deliberations within the Nazi
leadership that preceded the establishment of death camps are rare, nonetheless
what does exist makes it clear that an important consideration was the question
of whether the whole thing could be done quietly enough and with enough
'deniability' so as to never need public justification.
So it was a necessity that the death camps be set up and
staffed in places where the local populace could be counted upon, and
Poland fit the bill.

Third, you make a bare-faced assertion that the many recorded cases of 
returning Jews being murdered (sometimes singly, sometimes in pogroms)
in the immediate post-war years can all be explained by the 'civil war'
then in progress.  What is your evidence for this?  Are you claiming that
all or most of the murdered Jews were at all involved in the political fight
between Russian-imperialist Communists and Polish nationalists?  That they
just happened to get caught in the crossfire? That lots of innocents died
in these struggles; and it was just chance that most Jews who survived the
war in Poland or returned after the war somehow happened to be in this group?
But Polish anti-semitism, in your view of events, seems to have played no part!

You also assert to be a 'fact' that the interesting phenom. of anti-semitism 
without Jews (actually, with very very few Jews - something in the low 
thousands, I believe) which occured in Poland in the early '70s was purely
a matter of KGB disinformation.  Funny, but neither the Jews who left Poland
at that time nor the few who remained corroborate that assertion.  They claim 
they were fired, harrassed, dispossesed, locked out of schools, suffered 
physical violence, and 'invited' to leave Poland. Are they all KGB stooges 
or liars?   Or did the KGB manage to incite all this shameful behaviour towards
Jews despite the solidarity and friendship shown by most Poles towards Jews
in those years?

Kathy

.34>	Sounds startingly like the situation in Israel proper, where many
.34>	Jewish families now occupy homes belonging to Palestinians who were
.34>	murdered ...

OK, Karen, let's see you back that up.  Cite one (1) example of a Jewish
family in Israel who live in a house formerly owned by an Arab and who acquired
that house by turning over to the authorities the Arab owners, who were
then murdered in gas chambers.

.34>	From Gordon. Banks:
.34>
.34>	... was ashamed for the current occupant and for myself
.34>	enjoying someone else's property without their permission.

Just out of curiosity, where does Gordon Banks live, and whose property
does he enjoy there?

re .34

>Sounds startingly like the situation in Israel proper, where many
>Jewish families now occupy homes belonging to Palestinians who were
>murdered or driven into exile.

And what about the situation in Hebron, where homes occupied by Jews
were taken over by Arabs after the Jews were massacred by the Arabs
in the 1920's?  Jews have been killed by Arabs in Hebron in the 1980's
(e.g. Aharon Gross, a 17-year-old yeshiva student whose family I know).

Take a stroll through the Moslem Quarter of Jerusalem sometime, Karen.
Do you know why so many doorposts have one stone much newer than the
others?  When the Arabs occupied East Jerusalem in 1948, they systematically
removed all evidence of the centuries-old Jewish presence, replacing
stones that had cutouts for mezuzahs and destroying synagogues and yeshivas.
While you're in the Old City, take a look at the Hurba (Destroyed) Synagogue,
destoyed by the Arab League forces in 1948 for no strategic reason.  Visit
the Mt. of Olives.  Hussein's government used its gravestones to pave roads.

Karen, I never thought I'd see you use the term "Israel proper".

    Re: .40
    
    I'm puzzled as to why you find the term "Israel proper" strange.
    I use it to distinguish between Israel and the foreign lands it
    currently occupies in the Golan, the Occupied Territories, south
    Lebanon, etc.  In short, Israel within the boundaries it will
    eventually have, assuming it decides to make peace before it destroys
    itself.
    

    
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Courtesy of G(bA)S

    I strongly object to note 623.42. If the author feels that the
    discussion in this note is leading down a rathole, he need
    only ignore any further entries. I do not see the need for an
    entry which suggests that discussion should stop. In addition,
    I do not understand why it is a bad thing for a discussion to
    become drawn out and to lead down different paths; this seems to
    me to be characteristic of a good discussion, not a bad one. The
    suggestion is especially vexing because I was anxiously awaiting
    Karen's reply to the question raised in 623.39.

    The new turn in the path of the discussion is being handled in a
    number of OTHER notes in Bagels.  We do not need to turn each note
    into an Israeli/Palestine discussion.
    
    I do not want discussion to stop.  Let's just keep distinct topics
    separate.
    
    The base note deals with a presumed anti-semitic editorial comment
    in VOGON News.  It led to a discussion of anti-semitism in Europe
    and Poland in particular.  Since VOGON is a European "publication"
    the exploration of the feelings and experiences of our DECies across
    the pond could fit.
    
    We then had the topic veer toward the I/P issue.  THAT is the RATHOLE.
    
    Notesfiles often take on the character of stream-of-consciousness
    and word-association exercises.  When some participants
    "associate" in such a way as to turn the discussion's focus onto
    their only issue...and away from the central discussion...that's
    the RATHOLE.
       
    We have a number of topics that "discuss" I/P. Continue those
    discussions there.  Let's go back to the central issue of this
    note---European anti-semitism.
    
    Av. 
    
    

Shalom,

Sorry I missed alot of the action here.  3 days restfully spent at MIT seeing
how the rest of the world does X  8^{).

I think that attention should be paid to Av's rat hole alert.  When a
discussion wanders off of its original track, I becomes difficult to locate
the new tracks for later reference.  If you have a comment to make which
is only tangentially related to the base topic and which is likely
to start a divergent discussion, WRITE A NEW BASE NOTE!  That way the
discussion can continue on the base topic and the new topic without losing
track of who is talking about what.

Now, to the topic at hand.  Serge made some statements which stereotyped
Poles as anti-semitic.  Stated in that way, the comments are in appropriate
and have been set hidden.  It is not unreasonable to say that Poland has
had a serious (and chronic) problem with anti-semitism.  Or that at various
times it has been institutionalized by the government and the church there.
I can't honestly say what the situation is today.

I agree with Piotr, it is sad that we at times sink to the same types of
prejudice that have afflicted us.  It would be nice to think that as a rule
we could rise above it.  However, we should not be surprised when we are
unable to.

re: Karen Kolling

Where do you get off making comparisons between the Holocaust and the
situation in Israel and Territories?  There is a big difference between
taking advantage of the departure of those who have fled a war situation
and moving into the house of people who YOU TURNED IN TO BE EXECUTED.
The other thing you will notice is that the Israelis will usually admit
that Jewish residences were once Arab owned (or at least occupied).  The
situation in the Arab sections of Jerusalem and many areas of eastern Europe
is that people try do deny that it ever was a Jewish house.

L'hit,
Gavriel

    Re: .45
    
    Oh, if you personally turn the owner in for killing and you deny it,
    that's much, much worse than if you've killed other people in the same
    group, or taken advantage of your contemporaries killing other people
    in the same group, and you admit it?  It's only if you move into
    the exact same house and you deny the connection that it "counts"?
    
    

> 623.38 from ROSENBLUH
> 
> First, why would you expect Bagels to be the last place to find
> insensitivity?  It sounds like the implication is that because Jews have
> been oppressed and have suffered without cause at the hands of others,
> they should therefore be saints and exemplary human beings.  This surely
> doesn't reflect human nature as I have met it; abuse and oppression do little
> to improve people's character.  Unfortunately, this is not as irrelevant
> and flippant a point as you might think - the uncomfortable fact that a 
> victim can be an even crueler victimizer is the crux of the issue when we
> consider the relationship of Poles to Jews in the 20th century.

    Kathy,

    I am naive to think that the new generations that have NO personal
    experience of oppression can break the vicious cycle of prejudice...
    And still remain SENSITIVE.

>
> but I cannot imagine that the depth and virulence of traditional Polish
> anti-semitism was not an important factor in the decision.
>
> So it was a necessity that the death camps be set up and
> staffed in places where the local populace could be counted upon, and
> Poland fit the bill.

    Please read 632.00 "Jews and Poles, or Sense and Nonsense of History".
    I tried to provide you with some facts...

> 
> Third, you make a bare-faced assertion that the many recorded cases of 
> returning Jews being murdered (sometimes singly, sometimes in pogroms)
> in the immediate post-war years can all be explained by the 'civil war'
> then in progress.  What is your evidence for this?  Are you claiming that
> all or most of the murdered Jews were at all involved in the political fight
> between Russian-imperialist Communists and Polish nationalists?  That they
> just happened to get caught in the crossfire? That lots of innocents died
> in these struggles; and it was just chance that most Jews who survived the
> war in Poland or returned after the war somehow happened to be in this group?
> But Polish anti-semitism, in your view of events, seems to have played no part!

    I never said it played no part. I said these were brutal years.
    For everybody. For the Poles and for the Jews...

> 
> You also assert to be a 'fact' that the interesting phenom. of anti-semitism 
> without Jews (actually, with very very few Jews - something in the low 
> thousands, I believe) which occured in Poland in the early '70s was purely
> a matter of KGB disinformation.  Funny, but neither the Jews who left Poland
> at that time nor the few who remained corroborate that assertion.  They claim 
> they were fired, harrassed, dispossesed, locked out of schools, suffered 
> physical violence, and 'invited' to leave Poland. Are they all KGB stooges 
> or liars?   Or did the KGB manage to incite all this shameful behaviour towards
> Jews despite the solidarity and friendship shown by most Poles towards Jews
> in those years?

    In my grasp of English "several years after 1945" does NOT
    include the year 1968 which is the one I guess you describe.
    In March 1968 there was no need for KGB provocation, as the
    provocation came directly from the Polish communist party...

    Piotr Koziol

    re: .47
    
    Piotr,
    
    You still insist that the post-war anti-semitism was all communist
    inspired.  As far as I'm concerned this is nothing more than right-wing
    apoligism for anti-semitic acts.  The communists have never had
    the support of the Polish people so how could they have carried
    out such a massive act?
    
    David

> 623.48 from CHERSON
>
> You still insist that the post-war anti-semitism was all communist
> inspired.  As far as I'm concerned this is nothing more than right-wing
> apoligism for anti-semitic acts.  The communists have never had
> the support of the Polish people so how could they have carried
> out such a massive act?

    David,

    In general, communist governments don't need the support of their
    people to carry out massive acts. For example, nobody in the East
    Bloc supported the Soviet intervention in Czechoslovakia. But all
    the neighboring countries sent in their armies with the Soviets.

    Which specific massive anti-Semitic act in communist Poland did
    you have in mind?

    Piotr

In .39, I asked the author of .34 to back up what I considered a very serious
accusation that she had made there.  There has been no response so far,
although she has found time to enter other notes into this conference.

Personally, I find it strange when people throw around words like "murder"
as casually as others say "Have a nice day".  Karen, is this because
      -	you don't take yourself seriously?
      -	you don't take the rest of us seriously?
      -	you don't take murder seriously?

Whichever it is, I suggest that you take a good, hard look at the way that
you approach this type of discussion.

        Well, once again we see the Palestinians on the West Bank compared to
    the Nazi's victims. This comparison has always annoyed me; now I think
    I know why.
        What's wrong with comparing the Palestinians to the Jewish victims of
    the Holocaust? Two objections leap to mind, simple decency and common sense.
    It is hardly within the bounds of common courtesy to lecture the relatives
    of a hanged man on the properties of rope. Despite what some people seem
    to think, it is not the purpose of a dead Jew to serve as a club with
    which to beat live ones. As for common sense, comparing the destruction
    of European Jewry with the fate of a people who have one of the highest
    rates of population growth in the world displays a contempt for human
    life, and for the fate of peoples, which is breathtaking in its depth and
    scope.
        But that's not what really irritates me. What does is the easy 
    assumption that Jewish history is at anyone's disposal, for any purpose.
    "Even our deaths are not our own", I mutter, as I read this sort of
    thing. It is blithely assumed, that the greatest tragedy of modern
    Jewish history is public property, up for grabs. All its solidity melts
    away, the weight of its particularity dissolves; it is an example
    which can be tossed about at will.
        How is this possible? What is the basic mechanism through which
    this intellectual abstraction takes place? In a word, it is death.
    We do not explain the meaning of their lives to the living; they explain
    it to us. We do not tell a living people that their existence serves as 
    an example of this or that; if we do, they will tell us that their 
    existence does not serve any purpose at all, it is an end in itself. 
    European Jewry is not able to make this reply. The intellectual 
    abstraction of European Jewry rests on its previous physical destruction.
    The reduction of its history to an example or a cautionary tale parallels
    the reduction of its members to ash.
        We are told that the butchers of Chicago boasted that they used
    every part of the pig except the squeal. Those who compare the
    Palestinians to the victims of the Holocaust have surpassed them. We
    know that the Nazi's tried to use their victim's bodies; these people
    try to expropriate the victim's cries.

    To the author of .53:
    
    Thank you for your thoughtful and eloquent statement. I think it
    was necessary to this conference and a proper discharge of the 
    responsibility we bear to the memory of the victims.

    It's also interesting that Anthony Lewis in a recent issue of the New
    York Times, alleged that the Israelis had suffered more from the 
    Intifada than the Palestinians had.  And that with the Palestinian
    death toll now over 400 and the Israeli death toll at about 14.
    Talk about comparisons.
    

    I felt that I answered .39 in .46.