Conference taveng::bagels

Re: .0:  
> Why is kosher food soooooo expensive.  After all, a chicken is a chicken
> and a vegetable is a vegetable.  Maybe the Kosher inspectors in past lives
> had jobs with the Commonwealth of Mass.

For meat to be kosher, the animal must pass inspection before it is 
slaughtered.  Many animals are rejected for small bruises, lesions and the
like.  The slaughtering must be done according to exacting standards, and
there are precious few "specialists" around who know how to do it just right.
Only certain cuts of meat from the animal are permissible; the entire hind
quarter section is not allowed for kosher meat.  The kosher meat must not
come in contact with any dairy or with any nonkosher food products, vessels or 
containers.  Kosher meat must be specially soaked and salted to remove any
traces of blood.  Finally, all of the above must be under official 
supervision and certification.

I buy and eat only kosher meat, and it really hurts in the pocket.  It's my
choice, and I accept the consequences.  I don't think that there's much
unnecessary waste, corruption or abuse in this area.  A 10% overhead for
assuring that meat is kosher may be unreasonably thin to expect.

Regarding Ruth's Kitchen, their Chinese cuisine is nothing special.  But do
give their Korean specialties a try.  You might find them out of the ordinary.

RE: .1

>> The slaughtering must be done according to exacting standards, and
there are precious few "specialists" around who know how to do it just right.

Please explain in detail just what the exacting standards are and how they 
differ from FDA, USDA, etc. standards.


>>Only certain cuts of meat from the animal are permissible; the entire hind
quarter section is not allowed for kosher meat.

If this portion of the animal is not permissible, why should high prices
prevail for the rest of the cow?


>> The kosher meat must not come in contact with any dairy or with any 
nonkosher food products, vessels or containers. 

If a dairy-free environment is used to prepare and package the meat much in
the way other meats are prepared for shipping,  this too should not add
to the price.

>> Kosher meat must be specially soaked and salted to remove any
traces of blood.

When I cook up a juicy steak, Kosher of course, what's the red, juciy stuff
that comes bubbling up?  Besides, how much more does the salt and water cost?
Probably a lot if the water is provided by the MWRA!!  Also salt is salt, 
sodium-cloride, NaCl.  What must be done to make salt Kosher to justify its
higher price over the non-kosher brands?

>> Finally, all of the above must be under official supervision and 
certification.  

Here, I believe is the Higher price of Kosher Food.

    re: .0
    
    This reminds me of how people would ask me why my father's prices
    were higher than that of the Stop & Shop's, etc.  First of all my
    reply was that the treif prices were slowly but surely approaching
    kosher prices.  Secondly, I think David Ellis gave a very good
    explanation of why extra overhead is necessary in the koshering process
    (maybe we should pass that by the executive committee :-:-8^). 
    Thirdly, Yes not 100% of the blood is salted out from the meat at
    the butcher's.  I may be wrong but I think that the meat only has
    to be salted for a specified amount of time (I'll check back with
    the experts in the mishpachah).
    
    David 

    I have to concur with you about the quality of the food at Ruth's. It's
    truly unimpressive.  We had purchased some of their prepared foods
    from their Worcester location in the past and I bought take out dinner 
    in their Brookline location one night and have concluded that one can 
    prepare a much tastier meal at home.                
                   
    As for their price I don'think that they are alone in extorting
    funds from the "kosher" or frumm community. However, I have no base
    for comparison with similiar non-kosher establishments.
    
    

Ruth's is about 10 to 15% higher than J. Bildner's in Coolige Corner and almost
20 to 25% higher than the former Jaffe's Pick-a-Chick where the now VideoSmith
stands on Harvard St.

Jaffe's has been gone now for about 2.5 years but even inflation hasn't gone
up that much.

Other things to remember are the higher prices at Cafe Shalom and Rubins.  Even
Kupels and Egarman's are reasonalbly priced compared to other bakeries, 
Kosher or not.  

As .1 stated, keeping Kosher is one's personal choice and the cost goes along
with that choice.  It's a good thing that the Butchurie (sp) is directly accross
from Schafom's (sp) keeping each other in check.

Oh well

    While I am admittedly a big fan of the LKG cafeteria,k whose meat
    is not exactly V-H approved (:-)), I definitely prefer kosher chicken
    over that other stuff.  Empire explains that standard chicken farm
    approaches (4-5 birds to a tiny cage, forever) are too cruel to
    the animals to be allowed, so their kosher chickens are "free running"
    which makes them tastier!  Worth the price, and competitive with
    other free-range chickens.
       f red
    

This issue appeared as Question #4 on the Mass ballot last November.  
Proponants argued the cruelty to animals bit, even though these animals were
destined to be slaughtered, while opponants said this will make no 
difference in the overall quality of animals but it will definitly drive
up the price.

Alan

    I remember reading about a study of the costs of kosher chicken.  It
    found that the cost to the consumer was in line with the extra
    processing costs.  However, it was looking at NYC prices -- Boston
    prices are higher because of lack of competition and extra
    transportation costs.

    Also keep in mind that Ruth's is not exactly in a low-rent location.

    As for implications that the mashgiach is making a killing, Rabbi
    Moskovitz does not exactly live a life of luxury.  Nobody goes into
    the rabbinate to make money -- they go into the computer business
    for that.

There is another reason why EMPIRE poultry is superior to other poultry, and
this has to do with the type of food these poultry are receiving. In fact
EMPIRE has done much R&D in the area of poultry breeding and has developed
special breeds, which no other poultry company (kosher or non-kosher) uses
because of the cost involved in raising these special breeds.

The reason EMPIRE has done this is in order to give the customer a high quality
product while at the same time conforming to both "halachic" restrictions and
federal health regulations. Federal health regulations DEMAND that all poultry
be immersed in either extremely hot or extremely cold water for a substantial
time period before ANY processing (even flicking) can be done. "Halachic"
restrictions preclude the hot water option, leaving ONLY the cold water option. 
EMPIRE realized very soon that the flicking process would cause many tears in
the skin if done after the poultry has been immersed for several minutes in
extremely cold water (due to constriction). Using hot water would remedy this
but the "halacha" doesn't permit such a lengthy immersion in extremely hot
water. The alternative was to try and raise a breed of poultry which would
not be so sensitive to extremely cold water. EMPIRE has succeeded in doing this
through a combination of special feed and environment, but at tremendous cost. 

I know for a fact that the major portion of the price differential is caused by
this factor and NOT because of the Rabbinic supervision (EMPIRE has about 80
full time Shochtim and Mashgichim working for them). True, the supervision is
not cheap, but if this were the ONLY factor involved, then the price
differential would be much less.

Cb.

    An interesting side rumor:  I understand that most of the kosher
    and non-kosher meat in New England is kosher killed.  (That doesn't
    mean that it IS kosher!)  The rumor mill goes on to state that since
    kosher meat is in such demand here that it doesn't pay to have two
    methods of slaughter, two slaughter houses, etc.
    
    Of course, once the animals have been slaughtered you never know
    what happens to the non-kosher ones...

    My impression is that most kosher meat sold in New England comes from
    midwest slaughterhouses.  I also find it hard to believe that there's
    much demand for kosher meat in New England.

    I heard that steers were slaughtered in or near New York City for
    Kosher meat.  Some of the best cuts such as the tenderloin have
    a sinew which renders the meat not Kosher and is very difficult to
    remove.  Rather than remove the sinew, these cuts were sold to 
    non-Kosher restaurants.  The result is a large supply of steaks 
    in New York City.