Conference taveng::bagels

    It is even worse. Not only do they throw stones at peole on their
    streets, but they throw stones at people passing by on main streets
    and highways. Several people have been seriously injured by these
    attacks. I remember riding by on a bus once, and seeing these madmen
    yelling and screaming and waving their fists.
    
    They also do not believe there should be a state of Israel, because
    only the messiah can bring a state of Israel into existance.

    
    Jack

    Meah Shearim is an interesting place.  The streets going into that
    area (which is only maybe five by two blocks) are well-marked by
    overhead signs, detailing the rules that the people who live there
    follow and expect visitors to follow, mostly (SIGH) having to do
    with very lengthy and complex women's dress codes.  If you follow
    the rules, it is a very interesting place.  I stayed far, far away
    from there from noon on Friday until Sunday, though.  Meah Shearim
    is not on the way from anywhere to anwhere else, really, so there
    is no need to offend the residents (even if their ways are not your
    ways) by driving through there - hmm, actually, the edge of it may
    be a shortcut to the Damascus Gate from part of the new city, but
    you certainly don't have to go there.  I think the same separation
    is true of the other "super-strict" neighborhoods.  Kahane is an
    exception, even amongst his own followers, and so are the bus station
    vadalizers.
    
    /Charlotte (hoping to return to Israel one day)

  
>  	comment:  One would think that after 2000 years of being
>  made to conform to someone elses religious view of things , Jews
>  ,of all people, would be sensitive to other's beliefs.
>  
>  David
>

    	 Re 0
    
    	 Do you think the verbal stones you throw hurt any less than 
         the ones that strike the passing cars?
    
    	 You use terms such as "self imposed ghetto". I live in 
         Worcester's West End. This is one of Worcester's two Jewish 
         neighborhoods. I live here because I wish to live in a Jewish 
         community that respects the Sabbath (to the letter of the 
         Law). Here, religion means more than occupying a seat on 
         Friday night and Saturday morning. It continues on a 
         religious and personal level throughout the week. Tell me 
         David, what about Brookline, Cambridge, Newton, and the 
         countless other "ghettos" around Boston?
    
        >                                   
  	>question: 1. How dare they impose their religious beliefs
   	>on non-orthodox Jews,Christians and Moslems?
	>
    
    	 I think it is despicable that the Reform Rabbis have banded 
         together and are petitioning the American Jewish Federation 
         to withhold all funds from Israel until they are accepted as 
         Rabbis in Israel.
    
				Fred

  
  re:2
  
  	I have no problem with anyone's religious prohibitions as
  long as they limit it to themselves in their home,synagogue,church
  job,etc..
  
  	I feel very uncomfortable when it is imposed by force on
  public streets,sidewalks,buses,public swimming areas,etc..
  
  	If they feel that strongly about it let them remain in
  their homes on the sabbath with the blinds down.
  
  	Although they are not going around executing people like
  the Ayatollah there are certainly many similarities to his gang.
  
  David
  

    < Note 103.4 by BIGALO::SPECTOR_DAVI >
                          -< shades of the Ayatollah >-
  
  	"If they feel that strongly about it let them remain in
  their homes on the sabbath with the blinds down."
    

    
    Every Erev Shabbos we light seven candles very close to our dining
    room window. Do you suggest we close the shades so as not to offend
    some non-religous Jew that may be walking by our house.

			Fred
    

  
  re: .3
  
  > Do you think the verbal stones you throw hurt any less than
  > the ones that strike the passing cars ?
  
  Fred,
  	If, I have hurt you or anyone else by my note it was not
  my intention.
  
  
  > Tell me David, what about Brookline, Cambridge, Newton, and
  >  the countless other 'ghettos' around Boston ?
  
  	What about them? I did not say they were bad or good just
  self imposed. 
  
  > I think it is despicable that Reform Rabbis have banded etc..
  
  	That is grist for another note. It is not a response to
  my question. I have no ax to grind for either side.
  
  Hoping_my_note_is_taken_in_the_spirit_it_was_meant
  
  David
  

    This is getting -way- out of hand.
    
    There are two bodies of opinion here, each based upon fundamentally
    different beliefs:
    
    1) We live in a democratic society (Israel or U.S.).  As such, we
    are permitted to behave freely provided we do not cause tangible
    harm to others.  Loosely stated, but I believe accurately.
    
    2) As Jews, we are required to live in accordance with halacha.
    Shabbat is a fundamental concept of the Halacha.  Divine
    providence toward Jews is determined according to how they fulfill
    mitzvot.  This is particularly true in Eretz Yisrael, where territorial
    rights are given by G-d in return for observance of the commandments.
    Again, loosely stated.
    
    The Streets of Meah Shearim have become a particular focus of this
    disagreement.  I believe in the validity of the halacha, and the
    centrality of Shabbat to Jewish life.  Throwing stones will not
    help spread this message.  I am no expert on halacha, but I know
    of no heter (permission) for this practice.
    
    On the other hand, there is no reason for these vehicles to proceed
    through Mea Shearim.  They are not servicing local buildings, and
    the residents of the area desire that the streets be closed to
    non-emergency vehicles during Shabbat.  These are generally one-lane,
    one-way streets, little more than alleys.  They are -clearly- marked
    by barriers.  Anyone using these streets is probably going out of
    his way.  What should the Klan (lehavdil, let's distinguish)
    expect if they march through Skokie?
    
    So we have a conflict.  Neither side -believes- it should compromise
    with the other.  Fine. I don't -believe- I should have to override my
    cruise control while commuting on I-495.  Nevertheless, there are
    drivers out there whose habits strike me as less than courteous,
    and sometimes I have to slow down or "floor it."

    For residents of the Shabbat-observant neighborhoods to close their
    streets does not strike me as unnecessary infringement of others'
    rights, any more than a neighborhood block party which closes local
    streets.  "But the latter has a police permit!"  Fine: I believe
    that streets in mainly-observant areas -should- be legally closed
    on Shabbat.  I don't like the idea of streets in other areas being
    open.  But that's something I yield on, in return for free practice
    of my own beliefs.
    
    My ultimate wish is that the time will return when we -all- understand
    the nature of Torah and G-d's intentions for all of us.  It's been
    a long time since the revelation at Sinai; the message has become
    lost to many.  I hope we regain it soon, not by blood, but by peace.

    					--- Steve Schwartz
    

  
  re: .5
  
  > DO you suggest we close the the shades so as not to offend
  some non-religious Jew that may be walking by our house ?
  
  Fred,
  	Absolutely not!!
  
  	My point was that it is the responsibility of the people
  in Meah Shearim to avoid that public behavior which offends them
  not to prevent that public behavior by force. 
  
  
  David

    I've got to add my two grushim in this.
    
    1) The section in which people had been throwing stones at passing
    motorists in Jerusalem was not Mea Shaarim, but Ramot, which does
    border on a highway.
    
    Fred - If you've lived in Israel, then you'd be aware of the tyranny
    of the Orthodox estabilishment, even many religious people admit
    to it.  These people are not kindly, Hassidic Torah sages you read
    about in fables, but rather Eastern European social fascists who
    want to impose their will by hook or crook(you bet) on Israel, and
    by extension on all the Jewish people.  The only reason they have
    the power they have now is not from spiritual purity, but rather
    through political manipulations with the first Ben-Gurion govt.
    
    They have no right to discredit the Reform or Conservative movements
    in the Galut.  The entire "Who is a Jew" argument is a disgrace
    for all the world to see.  I'm afraid that I agree with the fact
    that if you want to deal with the Orthodox estabilishment, then
    you have to speak the same language, and if that means witholding 
    contributions (a tough thing for an Israeli to say) then so be it.
    
    I have respect for anybody that graduates from ANY rabbinical school,
    eight years is long road to hoe.  I personally find the Reform movement
    bizarre in many aspects, but I consider a sin to slander them (I
    think there is even a perek in chumash dealing with slander against
    another Jew).  My brother's late father-in-law had graduated from
    the Hebrew Union College, and he was a respected Torah scholar all
    the same.
    
    You'll never know you're on the road to heaven until you get there.
    
    David

    Amen, David. I do however recall being in an army vehicle that was
    stoned in Mea Shearim on shabbes and it took a great deal of self
    control, personally not to deal with "these" people who constantly
    address petitions to the UN demanding that the State of Israel be
    abolished and managing to find ways of avoiding army service.
    The orthodox community and their power, as David rightly stated,
    is in the hands of a bunch of lunatics. Do you realize that we may
    end up with 2 time zones in Israel this year because the minister
    has decided not to enforce summer time (he is from the Guardians
    of the Torah party) whilst the rest of the country will go ahead?
    The debate of who is a Jew only aleniated a substantial part of
    world jewery. For a country like Israel who is at least 75% agnostic,
    please see the state of the beaches friday and saturday, to have
    a minority wreck such havoc in a country is hard to beleive. Ministers
    who are travelling abroad have to return by urgent flight in order
    to cast their one vote so that the current coalition is not
    overuled...the mind really boggles. If the orthodox had as much
    tolerance for others as some others have for them it wouldn't be
    bad however...the closing of the theaters in Ramat Gan,the abolition
    of shabbes flights for El Al which cost the company dearly etc...
    has certainly not endeared them to a lot of people. Howver as long
    as the current system of elections continues we can expect the same
    balagan (mess). Kahanism should be addressed as a separate note
    :^)

    The news media have long fostered an image that "Orthodox" = Mea
    Shearim.  We're talking about what, 1000 families?
    
    Re .10:
    	
    	1) The Neturai Karta group, which advocates the disintegration
    of the State of Israel, is on the order of 500 families -total-
    (so I'm told).
    
    	2) The -government- is remaining on standard time.  -Industry-
    has decided to implement daylight time on its own (see elsewhere
    in this notesfile).
   
    	3) My impression of Israeli society is ~15% halachic, ~15% secular,
    and a bit more than 50% "traditional."  The last group is not shomer
    Shabbat, but hardly "agnostic."  (These figures were given to me
    5 years ago.  Comments from TAV*::?)
    	
    	4) El Al profits have -increased- since the company stopped
    Shabbat flights.
    	
    	5) Israeli government is organized on a multiparty system. 
    This ensures that relatively small groups which represent significant
    portions of the population are represented in government.  A fair
    deal, given the diversity of Israeli society.  There is a corresponding
    import attached to every vote.  Consider the alternative: a legislature
    where "a few votes here and there" don't make a difference.  Is
    that preferable?
    

    Try this perspective:
    
    For 2800 years, a Jew has been determined by:
    	
    	1) his mother's religion;
    	2) halachic conversion.
    
    Now, the Reform organization decides to change the rules.  Trouble
    is, the Orthodox organizations and most of the Conservative population
    don't accept this.  The end result is a two-class system:
    	
    	1) clearly Jewish;
    	2) considered Jewish by some, Gentile by others.
    
    Israeli society is already fragmented by various conflicts,
    religious-secular, Ashkenaz-Sefard-Edat_haMizrachi, upper/lower
    class.  To recognize patrilineal descent would introduce
    halachically/patrilineally Jewish to this cholent.
    We don't need another battle front.  The halachists make one formidable
    argument: status quo.  Changing it would worsen the problem.
    

    While I can't say that I agree with what the Reform movement has
    done vis-a-vis determining Jewish lineage, it's never going to make
    me in the least sympathetic to the Orthodox estabilishment.
    
    Whoever came out with the figures that only 15% of Israelis were
    secular was completely wrong.  What did change though were the number
    of people declaring themselves "traditional".  But you have to keep
    in mind that the Israeli definition of traditional is far different
    than what you practice as traditional in the diaspora; i.e., lighting
    candles on Erev Shabbat, that's all.
    
    David

    Certain neighborhoods are closed off on the Sabbath by
    OFFICIAL police barricades.  There is some sort of law
    (possibly a municpal by-law) which says something to the
    effect that if the majority (as in about 90%) of the 
    residents are Sabbath observent the road is closed.  
    This is with the exception of emergency vehicles on 
    emergency duty - as opposed to a bunch of people joy-riding
    around in an army jeep/half-track or whatever. 
    
    As to the percentage of secular Israelis - I have no
    figures but my gut feeling is that the number of totally,
    and I mean TOTALLY secular Israelis is closer to 50%. 
   
    The stone-throwers are a definite minority and their 
    actions are NOT condoned by more than a very small fraction
    of the ultra-orthodox community.

    I think that a number of issues have gotten mixed in here. To clear
    the matter perhaps separating them and dealing with them that way
    will make things a little clearer.
    1) Orthodox -> their power,% of population,# of Knesset seats
    2) Who's a Jew as proposed by the bill submitted to the Knesset,
    which was defeated
    3) Other issues such as El Al flights on shabbat, summer time etc...
    
    Re; .14, I don't beleive the IDF looks very kindly into "joy riding"
    as you say in whatever vehicle Mr. Goldman, at least not when I
    was there.
    
    Percentages are difficult to come by, I was only using my eye sight
    and estimating by the number of friends and so on who were either
    on the beach or elsewhere on shabbes rather than at the synagogue.
    I can't remember how many parties were represented at the last
    elections, but it was something like over 24 (?). This makes it
    very difficult to form a majority government without seeking coalitions
    which are "on the verge" of breaking up because: Sharon said one
    thing to Peres or Moda'i accused so and so of being ignorant etc...
    At every turning a vote of confidence is called and ministers who
    are abroad have to rush home since the absence of even one vote
    causes the coalition to crumble. How the religious parties can hold
    a whole nation to ransom, when viewed as to what power they really
    represent nation-wide, is, for me at least, hard to reconcile.
    
    The reason the Government is not implementing summer time but
    businesses and the army (I read in some paper as well) is because
    not enough time would be left for prayer purposes. Most countries
    implement summer time in order to save on electricity etc... However,
    I'm glad to see that Israel is rich enough not to need this kind
    of saving...since all we have to do next year in ask Uncle Sam for
    a further increase in the aid package.

>    Re; .14, I don't beleive the IDF looks very kindly into "joy riding"
>    as you say in whatever vehicle Mr. Goldman, at least not when I
>    was there.
    
They sure don't look very kindly Mr. Greg, but it sure does exist!

I personally have seen cars driving through orthodox 
neighborhoods tooting there horns with the (apparent)
sole intent of disturbing people.

>    How the religious parties can hold
>    a whole nation to ransom, when viewed as to what power they really
>    represent nation-wide, is, for me at least, hard to reconcile.
    
Such is politics in many places.  It is common to see relatively
small but highly visible interest groups wielding more political
power than their numbers would seemingly give them.

>    The reason the Government is not implementing summer time but
>    businesses and the army (I read in some paper as well) is because
>    not enough time would be left for prayer purposes. Most countries
>    implement summer time in order to save on electricity etc... However,
>    I'm glad to see that Israel is rich enough not to need this kind
>    of saving...since all we have to do next year in ask Uncle Sam for
>    a further increase in the aid package.

The army and "businesses" have NOT implemented summer time.  
A handful of small factories have shifted their workday to 
start one hour earlier.

To date there has been no objective, definitive study produced
which claims that summer time will save energy in Israel.

I personally would like to see summer time implemented but I 
feel that the energy saving thing is a crock.  In the past,
when it has been done we still ran our airconditioners the 
full workday.  Also, in order to have hot water for a morning
shower I had to use electricity to heat up the water because
the sun had not been out long enough to give us hot water from
our solar heater.

    Wow, this discussion has really gone into a tangent!  I suggest
    that we change the title of this note from "Orthodox Bullies"(a
    weird title, would have been a great name for a band during the
    punk era - The Othodox Bullies!) to "the Whole Ball of Wax".
    
    David

    
    
    	I can see it now,  a group of Chasid's,
    
    	Oy wee be Jammin, Mon !
    
    	Oy, Rast fa ?
    
    	Oy.
    
    

    So, trying to get back to the initial title of this note...
    What I find disturbing is this: the rise of "Khomeinism" in Israel.
    - The burning of bus stops in the Jerusalem area
    - The increased number of youngsters that are being brain washed
    by this ultra-conservatism that end them up saying "we're the guardians
    of the law let Shmuel go to Beirut and get shot"
    - The increasing intolerance of the VERY small minority and the
    passivity of the majority
    - The closing of movie houses on shabbat
    - The cancelling of El Al flights on the eve of shabbat
    - The Bill of who's a Jew
    - The immersion requirements for Ethiopian Jews (I mean either they
    are or they aren't if they aren't why the hell were they air lifted?)
    - The summer time issue

    
    The method of proportional representation in Israel was a good idea
    initially, the problem with it is that so many parties are represented
    that it makes forming a government a nightmare. How many parties
    managed to squeeze in between Tehiya and Kach? It ends up being
    a chouk:"I'll give you my donkey if you lend me a hammer". It's
    no way to run a railroad and it sure as hell ain't a way to run
    a country. We need a strong government who is able to tackle the
    difficult issues which are "the day to day bread" in a decisive
    manner. We don't need to have a party simply there to arrange deals
    between Moda'i, Peres and Shamir. We don't have to have votes of
    confidence on every single little disagreement,and in any normal
    country should someone have uttered the words of Sharon or Moda'i
    he would have been out so fast they would have had to send his bags
    after him...NOT spend 2 weeks trying to find a compromise solution.

    Tourists visiting a Druse village are asked not to photograph the
    women.  So they don't.  In houses of worship and in domiciles
    throughout the world, it is cusomary to remove one's shoes before
    entering.  And so we do. Why cannot the same people who respect
    such customs do the same when it comes to Mea Sharim? Does respect
    for the customs of other stop at the borders of our co-religionists,
    as much as they may deny a commonality of religion with those outside
    of their community?
    
    But.  Enough is enough!
    
    I read in the Jerusalem Post that violent objections are being raised
    against the interment of a Reform Rabbi in the Mount of Olives
    cemetary. Concrete blocks, in fact, were placed around the grave,
    presumably to that the consecrated ground will not be desecrated
    beyond the remains interred there.
    
    What next?
    
    Will there be, in the future, cemetaries for the conservative, for
    the orthodox, for the ultra-orthodox, for the reform Jews?  And
    the remains of one who was born of a conservative and orthodox union?
    
    Where shall they be interred?  May and orthodox son say Kadish for
    a reform father?  HOw about the reverse?  Is it possible that an
    entire set of Nurenberg-like laws will have to be written to determine
    who is a dead Jew and who is not?
    
    Who are these people who would take a religion that examines and
    blesses this life, this world, and turn it into a hierarchy of cemetaries?

    Preface: I don't rely upon the Jerusalem Post any more than upon
    National Public Radio.  The paper sports an unabashedly anti-Torah.
    
    Much of the "religious" conflict in Eretz Yisrael appears to be
    political, i.e., "I want," rather than, "the Torah specifies." 
    This happens within the halachic community, as well as in contact
    with the greater population.  This is also seen here, though to
    a lesser degree.
    
    -Who- is raising these "violent objections"?  A community council?
    A group of individuals?  The Chief Rabbinate?  If I were to run
    a red light, does that make all "Orthodox Jews" traffic violators?
    That's like saying, "All secular Jews accept intermarriage," because
    a subset are vocal about it.
    
    I don't know enough about this cemetery case to comment upon it.
    I -do- resent this "look what the frummies are up to now" attitude.
    A converse attitude thrives within the halachic community.
    Of course, each side justifies its own behavior.  That's a natural
    human response.  
    
    I have strong intuition that most denizens of the world are not
    "into" calm, reasoned discussion, as (usually!) occurs in this
    notesfile.  Let's keep that in mind when evaluating the actions of
    "outside" people.

    I don't think that discussion is leading to anything fruitful anymore
    (if it did at all).  Calling the Jerusalem Post anti-Torah is a
    bit way-out of a remark.  I never thought of it as that, just a
    shitty paper, that's all.  If there is any bias, it rests with the
    great number of South African Jews who work on it, that's why we
    always see a story about a South African zionist who laboured over
    the thought of having to give up cheap household help in order to
    come to Israel.
    
    By the way, what's wrong with NPR?  It happens the only unbiased
    and informative news service in the U.S.
    
    David

  Re .22:
    
    I don't agree that NPR is unbiased.  I -would- say that they carry
    stories that the -other- news services are biased against.  I heard
    a radio editorial the other morning -- may have been WEEI (Boston
    all-news).  The gist was that journalists should take a more -active-
    part in hostage negotiations and resolution.
    
    If information is power -- and -no-one- working for DEC should doubt
    that -- then information control is a form of power brokerage.
    
    It occurs to me that the following tidbit was not well-publicized
    over here:  Several weeks/months back, an ad appeared in one of
    Israel's dailies.  A group (the name escapes me for the moment)
    threatened that if any more religious -legislation- were passed,
    they would start a civil war.  This was -not- a "religious" paper,
    but Ma'ariv/Ha'aretz or somesuch.  
    

    To any of you: You are lucky that your name is not "Cohen", you
    don't want to marry a divorced woman, and you don't live in Israel...
    
    Well I hope not not offend anybody, nor do I have solutions to the
    problems stated here (excuse me for mistakes in English, ok?), but
    I do feel that sometimes I am forced to do things that disturb me
    without any good reason (as I see it) because of religous people
    in Israel.
    
    Again, these things tend to "flame" some people, which I try to
    avoid, so I'll just say what bothers me:
    
    It bothers me that I am convinced (by radio, TV, newspapers, feelings)
    that summer-time clock will help us, but we don't have it. I KNOW
    it will help me personally (am I an exception?).
    
    It bothers me that Arab members of the Knesset vote on "who is a
    jew", NOT because they are arabs, but because I think the subject
    should not be discussed in the Knesset.
    
    It bothers me that my wife HAD to go bathing in this place with
    green smelly water in some old building in Tel-Aviv in order to
    GET PERMISSION for marrying me.
    
    It bothers me that some rules about kosher food are made as laws,
    not because I am against kosher food, but when you make it a law
    it's not "kosher" food anymore, but "legal" food. I don't want
    to feel as a criminal eating a cheeseburger (This is not the 
    situation... yet... I am just explaining the point).
    
    Well, I have a long list but this is not the place to re-write
    the Bible, but in general I feel that "being a jew" was once (let's
    say... 3000 years ago) being ahead of your time, ignoring all these
    ignorance around you, but seeing these black people with funny
    black suits and everything, it somehow looks different today.
    
    AGAIN, I do hope not to hurt your feelings, just stating an opinion.
    
    Nitsan.
    

    Thank you Nitsan for trying to explain, from Israel, what it means
    really; not what "one hears".
    Perhaps you really should try and put down the rest of your thoughts
    on it and we can get other people ba 'Aretz to contribute (Yonel,
    Adi, Morris, Warren...) to see what impact this is having on your
    daily lives.

    < Note 103.22 by PFLOYD::CHERSON >
                             -< That was way-out >-

    
    "By the way, what's wrong with NPR?  It happens the only unbiased
    and informative news service in the U.S."
    
    
    Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! 
    
    That was a good one Dave. The only thing you forgot was the smiling
    face!
    
    				Fred   8-}
    

    re:.25
    
    Fred, let's just that I prefer NPR's biases over that of say, Rupert
    Murdoch.  What I really meant to say was that they are a preferable
    alternative to what is passing for "news" organizations in this
    country (U.S.).  I don't think that there is a more informative
    radio news show on than "all things considered".  My wife who has
    an aversion to news in general, says she has learned quite a bit
    just from listening to this show.
    
    By the way, when I lived in Israel, I found newspaper reading to
    be the greatest aid in learning the language.  I started out with
    Omer (for beginners), and proceeded to read practically every Hebrew
    paper in Israel.  I became familiar with all the points of view
    of the various factions by reading their rags.
    
    David

    Re .27
    
    I don't think it's a question of biased news. Today it is considered
    good journalism to pass off editorials as news. Each reporter wants
    to add his own flavor to the news and is not happy until he's pissed
    on the fire hydrant. I'm guilty of the same thing myself. If I don't
    like the weather report on one station, I tune in a station with
    a weather report more suitable to me.
    
    				Fred
    
    

    If I don't like the weather in the morning, I change to another
    atmosphere.