Conference taveng::bagels

RE: 0

I'm _really_ sorry I could not/cannot (much too far away) attend the
talk.  I wonder how long it will be, viz:

>... are controlled by the respective religious clergy of each religion.
>For secular Jews that spells trouble...

Let's hope the lessons of Iran (probably unnoticed by many) don't
get repeated (probably will to some extent) in Israel.

A couple of hundred years ago (when people at least appeared a bit smarter)
the separation of religious fanatics (oops...I mean church) from dirty
politics (oops...I mean state) was pretty neat eh?

    re: .1
    
    How about secular fanatacism? It's easy to talk about religious
    freedom, but when the tables were turned the Socialist power-brokers
    did everything in their power to strip new immigrants of any trace
    of their heritage. Religious youths were forcibly taken to left-wing
    Kibbutzim, parents were coerced into sending their children to Mapam
    schools, peyos were shaved off the heads of arriving Yemenites at the
    airport...
    I'm not one to dredge up feuds of the past, but how about a little
    sense of history? How much does it hurt for someone to be married
    or divorced according to time-honored laws, anyway? I can tell you
    how much it hurts the Jewish people when these laws are trampled
    on - it tears the nation asunder! Jew cannot marry Jew. 
    Which lessons from Iran? The lesson of the Tehran children who were
    force-fed non-kosher food upon their arrival in the holy land? Let's
    make sure we're living in brick houses before we throw any more stones.
    Jeremy
    

    re:.2
    I can smell the blood... cool it!
    
    Just because one group at one time committed sins in the name of
    secularity does not mean that it is correct for another group to commit
    sins in the name of non-secularity.  The "Islamic Republicans" hold over
    a dozen seats in the Knesset but disproportionate power.  Just because
    God wants everyone to obey {Sha'aria|Halacha} does not mean that a
    state that fails to use some particular interpretation of {Koran|Torah}
    for its secular law is oppressing those who wish to follow those laws
    themselves.
    
    The anti-religious acts of the past should be dealt with on their own,
    not used as an excuse to drive a wedge between the State and the
    non-frum majority.

re: .0
    
    >How about secular fanatacism? It's easy to talk about religious
    >freedom, but when the tables were turned the Socialist power-brokers
    >did everything in their power to strip new immigrants of any trace
    >of their heritage. Religious youths were forcibly taken to left-wing
    >Kibbutzim, parents were coerced into sending their children to Mapam
    >schools, peyos were shaved off the heads of arriving Yemenites at the
    >airport...
    
    Where do you come off with such fantasies?  No one tried to strip anybody 
    of any heritage.  No one was forcibly taken to "left-wing" kibbutzim (how 
    do you explain religious kibbutzim?), etc.  This is the most 
    fantasy-laden description of history I've ever seen in BAGELS.

    David     

    When I visited a Yemenite village (in 1965) peyote were much in 
    evidence, among the elders as well as the children.  I have photos to prove it. 
    
    Incidentally, it was a fascinating visit.  Out of courtesy and pride on 
    the part of the villagers, my wife and I were invited to attend a 
    wedding.  But we were not the only non-Yemini guests.  Invited also was 
    the British pilot who flew the "Magic Carpet" operation, bringing this 
    entire village from an undisclosed point in Saudi Arabia to Israel. 
    There was a great deal of warm greetings and back-slapping at this 
    reunion.

    I've been living with a Jewish friend of mine for quite some time.
    His description of a kibbutz was quite different from what is said
    in this topic (purely politically oriented, et.al.).
    
    I think a re-read of history books is required.
    
    Pioneeringly yours,
    
    Chris

    Re: .4
    
>    Where do you come off with such fantasies?  No one tried to strip anybody 
>    of any heritage.  No one was forcibly taken to "left-wing" kibbutzim (how 
>    do you explain religious kibbutzim?), etc.  This is the most 
>    fantasy-laden description of history I've ever seen in BAGELS.


    David,
    
    I hate to disillusion you, but these things DID happen. There was
    a tremendous attempt to "strip" the "vulnerable" immigrants of their
    religiousness. 
    
    Are you aware of the fact that babies were TAKEN from Yemenite families
    and GIVEN to more "enlightened" families. The mothers were told that
    there babies had died in birth etc. Of course this was done for the
    "wellfare" of the new born babies. 
    
    These tactics certainly weren't complete and 100% successful, but
    a lot of damage was done to many many families.
    
    Of course one may ask, "then why isn't all this information documented?"
    
    I'll answer with the same answer that I was given to a question
    that I once asked Rabbi Soloveitchik:
    
    I asked him why one cannot find the facts mentioned in Megilat Esther
    in Persian history books?
    
    He answered that it IS and HAS BEEN the practice of many nations
    to attempt (not always successfully) to omit "embarrassing" events
    from documented history sources.
    
    Unfortunately, there have been many "embarrassing" events connected
    with Secular Zionism. What was mentioned in previous replies isn't
    even the tip of the tip of the iceberg.
    
    Sorry to be the bearer of "bad news"....
    
    Cb.
    
    

    

    There was an incident recently, where a tourist while visiting the
    Temple Mount took out a small Book of Psalms and started reciting
    them. He was approached by one of the guards and told that it was
    "forbiden" for Jews to pray on the Temple Mount. The tourist calmly
    explained to the guard that he was a Christian from Germany and
    that he always recited Psalms. He was told, "In that case you may
    continue..."
    
    This was documented in the Jerusalem Post several weeks ago.
    
    How's that for religious freedom and tolerance ..... just ducky,
    isn't it ????

    
    Cb.

    re: -1
    
    What's your point about the saying of psalms by a Christian?  What's
    the connection between that and all those "left-wing" kibbutzim
    (without which Israel probably wouldn't be standing).
    
    David

    Perhaps he was proud of the religious freedom now permitted in Israel. 
    After all, if the religious parties had their way, Jews would not even
    be permitted to STAND on the Temple Mount, let alone pray...  :-)
    
    Ed

    Wow! We seem to have touched off some controversy.
    In terms of documentation of the incidents referred to in .2, there is
    actually quite a bit, mostly in Hebrew, though. In English, there is
    a book by Ben Hecht (a member of the Irgun), called "Perfidy", in which
    he describes many of the ugly incidents mentioned above. For further
    references, please send me mail.
    Let me clarify my point clear once again. I do not wish to incite contro-
    versy lishma (for its own sake). I have strong feelings about the
    founders of the State of Israel, and most of them were not believing
    Jews, to say the least. This fact is immaterial in my estimation - 
    they sacrificed everything for the sake of their people. But when
    injustice is committed it should be exposed - lest it be repeated.
    The religious people in Israel have every right to make their views
    known, as do the Communists, Arabs, and every facet of society. The
    sad fact is, without political clout, small groups are stomped upon.
    Let's pray that "Ha'oseh shalom bi'meromav hu ya'aseh shalom BEINEINU"
     - May He Who Makes Peace - make peace BETWEEN us" Amen.
    Jeremy
    
    

    Is this the same Ben Hecht who wrote the play "Front Page", who was 
    a reporter on a Chicago newspaper, who headed Biograph Studios in the 
    Bronx, and who wrote many, many Hollywood screenplays?  Also a member 
    of the Irgun? Wow!

                <<< GVRIEL::DUA0:[NOTES$LIBRARY]BAGELS.NOTE;1 >>>
                -< BAGELS and other things of Jewish interest >-
================================================================================
Note 697.8                Freedom of religeon in Israel                  8 of 11
TAVENG::CHAIM "A matzah ball a day....."             45 lines  27-JUN-1989 04:29
                        -< These events DID happen.... >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Re: .4
    
>>    Where do you come off with such fantasies?  No one tried to strip anybody 
>>    of any heritage.  No one was forcibly taken to "left-wing" kibbutzim (how 
>>   do you explain religious kibbutzim?), etc.  This is the most 
>>    fantasy-laden description of history I've ever seen in BAGELS.


  >  David,
    
  >  I hate to disillusion you, but these things DID happen. There was
  >  a tremendous attempt to "strip" the "vulnerable" immigrants of their
  >  religiousness. 
    
  >  Are you aware of the fact that babies were TAKEN from Yemenite families
  >  and GIVEN to more "enlightened" families. The mothers were told that
  >  there babies had died in birth etc. Of course this was done for the
  >  "wellfare" of the new born babies. 
    
  >  These tactics certainly weren't complete and 100% successful, but
  >  a lot of damage was done to many many families.

I have heard of these allegations before.  But is there any *proof* 
that such actions were ever taken.  By whose orders?  The actions were 
carried out by whom? And to whom?  Do you have any names?

The following reference to the response given by Rabbi Soloveitchik seems to 
indicate that the fact that there is no proof is proof enough.
    
>    Of course one may ask, "then why isn't all this information documented?"
    
>    I'll answer with the same answer that I was given to a question
>    that I once asked Rabbi Soloveitchik:
    
>    I asked him why one cannot find the facts mentioned in Megilat Esther
>    in Persian history books?
    
>    He answered that it IS and HAS BEEN the practice of many nations
>    to attempt (not always successfully) to omit "embarrassing" events
>    from documented history sources.
    
>    Unfortunately, there have been many "embarrassing" events connected
>    with Secular Zionism. What was mentioned in previous replies isn't
>    even the tip of the tip of the iceberg.
    
Could you tell us more?    
    

    

Someone had created a new note, 724, with my reply and requesting PROOF.
I guess the moderator deleted it....

The best proof would be to talk to Yemenite families here in Israel. 

My first cousin is married to a Yemenite girl and she has first hand
information from friends of her parents. In one case she told us, a friend of
her mothers went to the hospital with her sick baby. After several hours a
doctor came and "sadly" told her the child had died. The mother went home. The
father ran to the hospital and demanded to see the body. They "tried" showing
him a body, but he immediately recognized that this was NOT his child.
"Miraculously" his baby returned to the living. NOT all people had the strength
or whatever it takes to stand up and argue, in fact most didn't. 

Most of this came to light when families of chidren who had "died" started
receiving mail notices addressed to their "dead" chidren that they had reached
the age for armed services duty. These families of course answered that their
children were "deceased". BUT, NO death certificates were recorded. In one
particular case, the child was tracked down to an Ashkenozic family in Haifa,
a very wealthy family. The child had very outstanding Yemenite features, so it
was virtually impossible for the "parents" to ever have claimed that the child
was their natural child. In an interview, the father rationalized the
"adoption/abduction" with a claim that he and his wife had the opportunity to
do "so much more" for the child than could his natural
"primitive"/poor/multi_children parents.   

I can't give any specific names. There have been several radio programs on the
subject. There have also been several actual court cases, and I believe there
was an attempt to create an official board of enquiry to look into the
allegations.

I also suggest reading Ben Hecht's "Perfidy"....

It is known that Jewish Zionist leaders had the opportunity to save some
(probably very few -- but the numbers aren't important) ultra religious
holocaust victims from Eastern Europe and refused. 

I'm sure that more rigirously documented proof exists, but I don't have the
time (nor the need) to dig it up. 

You may believe whatever you so desire.... 

BTW, there are some who claim that the "holocaust" never happened and that it
is merely a "fanatsy" in the minds of the Jews.

Cb.

    No, the moderator didn't delete my query. It is now .14 in this
    discussion.  
    
    It appears from your note (.15) that several abductions, kidnappings 
    may have taken place.  Is there any evidence that the State of 
    Israel was involved in them, that such policy was implemented or 
    encouraged by state agents?
    
    What is the possibility that such illegal acts have become the 
    basis of a "folklore"?
    
    The Yemenites that I spoke with in Israel in 1965 were 
    fiercely loyal to the State, to their families, their synagogues, and, 
    oddly enough, to the government. But as we know, " 'For instance'  is 
    no proof."
    
    

    Re. .15 by TAVENG::CHAIM
    
    > It is known that Jewish Zionist leaders had the opportunity
    to save some (probably very few -- but the numbers aren't important)
    ultra religious holocaust victims from Eastern Europe and refused.<
    
    What is your source of reference for this indictment?
    
    Bernice

    RE: 697.15

    One does not have to be much of a historian to know that some of the
    animosity between datim and lo-datim goes back quite a ways.  On the
    other hand, the incidents described in the note have no obvious
    ideological aspect; they would appear to be cases of illegal adoption
    by people who wanted children.  This sort of thing goes on in every
    country I know of, and it mostly involves people with money taking
    advantage of people who are poor.

    One thing I believe did happen in the 40s and 50s, was that refugees
    were allocated to various party groups for resettlement.  The
    allocation was in proportion to Jewish Agency membership (which closely
    paralleled Knesset membership).  This gave the parties a free hand to
    indoctrinate "their" new refugees to vote for them and thus maintained
    a kind of political status quo.  It also required them to be somewhat
    sensitive to the refugees' interests, since the object was to win
    long-term political loyalty.

    It has been some time since I read about this and I may be
    misremembering some of the details, but I cannot remember ever seeing
    any evidence that children were taken away from parents as a matter of
    policy.

                                                Aaron

Re: .16

Bernice,
	As mentioned in .12 above, there exists a good deal of source
material on this black chapter in Israeli history. Send me mail if you're
interested. One book that discusses just that issue was already cited.
	This discussion seems to be going in circles. The point is not to
bash "Secularists", but simply to point out that the involvement of the
religious community in political life in Israel is a necessity to pre-
serving its own rights. 
	
	BTW, from my discussions over the years with non-observant Jews,
most are quite disappointed when they hear of the relatively small number
of practicing Jews in Israel. They expect Israel to be the center not only
of Jews, but of Judaism. Israel is an extremely open society, and any thought
of comparisons to theocracies are ludicrous and absurd. Personal observance
is a personal matter, and it will stay that way as long as the State is in
existence.
	There is a fine, but critical distinction here. Nobody is going to
climb into your kitchen to see if you're frying latkes or bacon. That's
personal observance, in that it affects only you. But like the old adage
goes, my rights end where your rights begin. Matters of marriage & divorce,
for example, affect the entire Jewish people. If there is a chance that
my child will not be allowed to marry the Jewish spouse of his/her choice
if I am not divorced or married according to Halacha, why would I take such
a chance, unless I specifically made a decision to divide my offspring from
the rest of the nation. 
	There are other issues, some of which directly affect the integrity
of the Jewish people, and some of which are just designed to show respect
for the venerated institutions of our religion. Public transportation on
Shabbat belongs to the latter category. Many Israelis who are otherwise
non-observant, understand that Shabbat is one the foundations of Judaism,
and live with the inconvenience of no buses on that day, without much
complaining (although there are many vocal exceptions). 
	It's all based on common-sense, and mutual respect - not always an
easy task but one that's necessary for our survival, both spiritually and
physically.
Jeremy

    re. 19
    
    My name is not Bernice; it is Herb.  And I don't fry bacon.
    
    In so far as this "black chapter in Israeli history" is concerned, 
    I'm sure that many readers of this discussion would be interested 
    in any source material you might care to cite.  
    
    Who is Bernice?

Re: .20 
I meant to say "re: .17". Please re-read .12 and the first paragraph of .19
in regard to your request.

    Re.  The allegation that during the Holocaust, Zionists 
         refused to help European ultra-orthodox Jews.
    
    I spoke with Rabbi Schneider and he said this was a
    fabrication.  On the contrary he said that some ultra-
    orthodox Jews refused to be helped by the Zionists, 
    thought of them as the "goyem" and chose to wait for 
    the messiah.
    
    Bernice

    Bernice,
    
    Please read Perfidy by Hecht.  Then you will better understand what
    went on.
    
    ---Av