Conference taveng::bagels

    
    Hi Malcolm--
    
    I guess how hard preparing for Pesach is depends on which Jewish
    mum is doing the preparing!  In a strictly observant household,
    buying kosher-for-Pesach food is only the beginning.  The rule is,
    no chametz anywhere in your possession.  For observant folk, that
    means not only do you have to buy Pesadich food, but you have to
    rid the house of *everything* that is not Pesadich.  This can be
    a massive cleaning effort: refrigerators need to be thoroughly
    scrubbed, ovens need to be (basically) re-koshered to make sure
    all the chametz is off, corners of rooms need to be meticulously
    vacuumed, everyday dishes need to be packed away and sealed up--get
    the idea?  I don't go further than this, but I have cousins who
    shake out, one by one, every single book in their entire house,
    just to make sure no breadcrumbs have gotten caught anywhere.
    
    It's actually not that exhausting however, and it's a great way
    to discover leftovers in your freezer!  Of the items you mentioned
    above, by the way, which you're not sure about whether they really
    need a special Pesach hecsher-- milk, if bought before Pesach starts,
    does *not* need to be kosher l'Pesach.
    
    Chag Sameach! --Fern

    hi,
    
    Thanks for the replys. Could you say what 'chalav yisrael' is? I doubt
    if regular milk here in Britain has any additives (they probably
    wouldn't be legal). As for sealing the stuff away my basic idea was
    that with a small box of Pesach goodies in the kitchen corner, I
    wouldn't the the cupboards so I could just leave them untouched.
    
    The freezer could be more difficult as the frozen vegetables are
    ok and the chametz can be sold off. Perhaps I should just arrange
    it so that the the bits I'll be using are at the top?
    
    I'm also not sure about the requirements for kitchen worktops and if it
    would be ok if I just gave them a good clean? 
    
    Thanks for the answers,
    
    Malcolm

    It's tough on us working people when Passover starts late in the
    week -- I usually count on doing most of the major housecleaning
    the previous Sunday and not allowing anyone to track crumbs, etc.,
    into any of the "cleaned" areas - that's hard when the holiday starts
    on a Friday night!
    
    This Sunday we will clean the bedroom, study, sewing room, and
    basement, and defrost and eat the rest of the "discoveries" in
    the freezer - mostly empty at this point.  Sunday night we will
    do the inside of the oven, since no baked food is on the menu for
    the rest of the intervening time before the holiday starts.  We
    do not use the dishwasher during Passover (it's very old; I don't
    think it would survive being kashered - spent last Sunday patching
    rusted-out places in the inside of the door with epoxy).  And we
    will wash all the curtains, bedclothes, etc., and clean out the
    dresser drawers and closets.
    
    Next Thursday night we will defrost and clean the refrigerator and
    clean and kasher the stove top, and strip and rewx the kitchen floor
    - yes, I am taking Friday off (but my husband is not!) as putting
    several new coats of acrylic floor wax down usually takes me until
    about 2 am even if I start immediately after supper.  In between
    floor coats, we will haul down the Pesachdig dishes from the attic
    and get them all out in the sewing room (we just close up the regular
    cabinets for the holiday - I WILL clean them out this Sunday, though).
    We used to cover all the counter surfaces in the kitchen with wax
    paper (what my orthodox mother-in-law also used to do), but that
    is a real mess in short order, so the whole family uses agricultural
    transparent plastic sheeting now - comes in huge rolls, and easily
    survives a whole week of people spilling liquids on it, etc.  We
    will leave about noon time on Friday for my in-laws house.  I haven't
    figured out what I am going to do for breakfast/lunch that day yet,
    since I will be around the house (after I wake up!); I will probably
    save out a banana somewhere (wrapped up) and eat it.  I have to
    be around home that morning because that is when the carpet shampoo
    place is coming to do the rugs....
    
    Yes, it IS a massive marathon, especially if you work.  It's a good
    thing it is only once a year!  On the other hand, when we have both
    recuperated from all the setup, it is kind of nice to have everything
    in the house clean all at one time.  And there are plenty of people
    who do lots more than we - my brother-in-law kashers his TELEPHONES
    for Passover (the amazing thing, if you knew my brother-in-law,
    is that the first year he decided this was necessary to do, he actually
    managed to reassemble a working phone after taking it all completely
    apart and BOILING THE PIECES!), and uses a blowtorch on his oven
    (after cleaning ours thoroughly, we ran it at its highest setting
    for 18 minutes - some other folks in the family do this for half
    an hour, and my mother-in-law runs hers through its self-clean cycle,
    since she has an electric kitchen).

    Since the topic name was "simple style Passover", I'll note that
    my family uses glass plates, since they do not "absorb" the food
    on them (normal porcelain does, as does metal, per kashrut) which
    simplifies things a bit.
    
    Also, kitniot is not necessarily not pesadich; that is an "optional"
    observance (I forget the Hebrew terms) which is common among Ashkenazim
    but not halachically required, and not practiced among Sephardim
    at all.  (Supposedly, the custom of not eating Kitniot on Pesach
    comes from the time in Eastern Europe when beans & rice weren't
    common, so they were stored in containers which were also used for
    things that _were_ chumetz, so they were often contaminated.  Of
    course, under Orthodoxy, an observance is more easily added than
    subtracted...)
           fred 

    There was an interesting article in the latest "JEWISH OBSERVER" (a
    publication of Agudath Israel) entitles "How much Pesach is too much
    Pesach?"  It was about the misperception that Pesach cleaning was the
    same as spring cleaning. 
    
    It described the extent to which many people struggle to clean their
    entire houses (washing all linen/bedding, almost sterilizing their
    homes, etc.) to a greater extent than the halacha demands.  They
    put onto Pesach all the cleaning, organizing, rearranging, sorting
    activities that could be done other times of the year.
    
    The bottom line was that one needs to get rid of Chomez...that is
    just as well done by vaccuming a carpet as by shampooing a carpet. 

    I have NEVER heard of anyone boiling a phone...however, people may
    use different utensils for serving food in their homes. :^)
    
    ---Av

    
    I think, if I'm remembering correctly, that the deal with milk (which
    does indeed sometimes contain soy) is that it falls into the category
    of "chametz b'mashehu"--that is, it only applies if the "mixing"
    (in this case of milk and soy) took place *after* the start of Pesach.
     If it took place *before* the start of Pesach, "batel b'shishim"
    applies as usual--that is, the hametz constitutes less than one-sixtieth
    of the total product, and thus the milk is permitted on Pesach.
     Anyone know about this for sure?
    
    Incidentally, there are observant people who hold by rulings which
    allow certain "unadulterated" products on Pesach without hechsherim--
    these include things like coffee, tea, salt, and packaged sugar.
                                                                    

    How about some easy ideas for   B R E A K F A S T ?  
    
    Problem is what to give my kids:  Marc, 13; and Amy, 15.  Especially
    Marc.  His idea of breakfast is a bowl of cereal -- hot or cold.  And
    he (or any of us, for that matter) can only tolerate so much Matzah &
    Cream Cheese.  I mean, after he's gone through all of the Pasach-dig
    jelly roll, etc., then what?
    
    		Chag Sama-ach    Shalom    Michael (a.k.a. Menachem) Baron

    A few breakfast suggestions:
    
    Eggs are OK - you can pick up kosher cheese and make omlets, for
    example.  One neat thing about eggs for breakfast is that they contain
    NO MATZOH!!!  This can be real good after four or five days...
    
    There is a hot breakfast cereal made of matzoh meal, which is packaged
    by one of the bigger companies, Streits or Horowitz, I think.
    
    My mother used to serve bananas with sour cream (in a bowl with
    sugar), or she would make matzoh brei.
    
    If you want to be more creative, get a Pesadic cookbook - I recommend
    the one written by Mrs. Avrutick.  There are lots of creative recipies,
    and some even work!
    
    				Paul
    

    Matzoh Brie... AKA:  Matzoh Bricks the way it sits inside your gut.

    Every Pesach I'm amazed at how much I miss bread or just how much
    bread is in our dites...

    I don't eat matzoh brie, either - settles like a rock into the pit
    of my stomach (matzoh balls do, too, but THEY are at least tasty!).
    
    I don't miss bread (I only eat it on shabbos anyhow, in order to
    be able to make motzi over real challah); I miss RICE.  Also noodles
    (pesachdig noodles taste like wet shoelaces...).
                                  
    Maybe someone will come up a local source for non-wheat matzohs.

    This is my favorite holiday of the year, because of the food. I plan
    to have matzo brei as often as possible next week. Then there's
    matzo knaidlach, the heavier the better with chicken soup and matzo
    farfel, and matzo latkes with slices of frankfurts in them. I can't
    wait. 
    
    I love this stuff.

    
    
    	Matzo Latkes with slices of Franks?
    
    

    
    Matzo brie tasteless?  Brick-like?  Wow, I can't imagine it!  I can't
    have matzo at all, because I'm allergic to wheat, but back when I could
    eat the stuff, I had either sweet matzo brie (with powdered sugar), or
    omelet-type (with onions and seasonings) 'most every day.
    
    What about oatmeal and/or cream of rye? 
    
    Beverly
    

    Wow, you people who love eating all that matzoh meal must have
    cast-iron intestinal systems! - it's not that it TASTES like a brick,
    just that it FEELS like I ate one, later.

    L'shana Haba'a v'Yerushalayim!! (Much easier in Hebrew; need a new
    keyboard set!)
    
    This is the first year my family and I will have seder together
    (all together) since I was about 13 (I'm 25, married and expecting
    my first child soon).  While it is very exciting, it is also slightly
    disappointing in that I'm the only one of 4 kids in my family to
    marry within the faith.  I have 4 gorgeous nieces and a nephew,
    but mine will be the first Jewish grandchild (SPOILED -- YOU BET).
    
    My problem is that I can't help but see how painful this is for
    my parents.  They love my brothers dearly, but the disappointment
    they have in my sisters-in-law is palpable.  So, on this most joyous
    holiday of peace, I'll be trying to keep the peace.  (Three days
    of this and I should be ready for the 'soft walls.'
    
    Well, thanks, it was good to say all that.  A pleasant holiday to
    all, and don't forget a good reward for the Afikomen finder (I have
    a vested interest -- I used to be the champ!)
    
    Shalom!!
    
    P.S.  All is not lost, Michael, I finally did figure out what you
    meant!

    re #.16 -- Funny you should mention this problem in a Pesach context.  
    	I have always found "kol dich-fin yatay v'yay-chol, kol ditsrich
    	yatay v'yif-sach" (Let ALL who are hungry, come and eat; let ALL
        who are in need, come and be satisfied) to apply to Jews and non-
        Jews alike, who found themselves at our Seder (this includes my
        brother's non-Jewish wife!).  
    
    	No, not to many people have joined us who would have otherwise
    	gone without dinner that evening.  But many are those who other-
    	wise would have been alone.  I certainly do not be-little the
    	stress that "family situations" can bring about. Yet the Seder,
    	with its pagentry, the singing, the good feeling and fond
    	memories -- certainly provides an atmosphere for pleasant family
    	relations.   
    		Hats-la-cha raba & Chag Sama-ach to ALL
    			Michael (a.k.a. Menachem) Baron 

    re:.14
>    What about oatmeal and/or cream of rye? 

    Neither is pesadich.  Having read through the early replies in the
    Halachic Newsletter topic 75, which discuss pesach, and not being
    orthodox (where cumulative historic customs take the force of
    personally-applicable law, even if not based in Talmud or Torah), I
    note the technical definition of chumetz. 
    
    Wheat, barley, rye, oats and spelt, unless cooked within 18 minutes
    of being moistened (matzo treatment, actually more complex than
    that).  (Don't ask me what spelt is!  I've never seen it either.)
    
    That rules out oatmeal and cream of rye, in general, because they
    are sold pre-milled and you don't know that they were kept properly
    dry all along the way.  (General custom, again, is that only matzo
    and matzo meal, because they've been supervised, are pesadich. 
    Of course one _could_ supervise other products from farm to market,
    but nobody bothers.  Maybe you can find them somewhere.)
    
    Rice, corn, soy et al are not chometz.  Soy, rice and bean flour were
    sometimes mixed/confused with chometz, hence a custom (not law)
    among Ashkenazim (not Sephardim!) to not eat them, but if you drive
    to shul on Shabbos or for that matter answer the phone, it might
    be rather inconsistent with your level of observance to abstain
    from all legumes or rice for pesach.  (If you're frum, follow your
    custom.)   Again read Topic 75 for the orthodox history.  Pure
    puffed rice, then, is not chometz.  (Rice Krispies include malt.)
    
    Corn (maize) did not meet Jews until after the expulsion from Spain,
    and is not chometz or kittniot.  Some might however note that it
    is a relative of wheat et al, but I don't think it rises (leavens)
    the same.  Hence corn flakes could be pesadich except that they
    generally use malt (barley, chometz) flavor.  And would taste awful
    without it (I think I've found such, in health food stores).  
         fred

    What about corn syrup?  It is used in so many products that would
    otherwise be Kosher L'Pesach for example Eggbeaters.  We are interested
    since my youngest son is on a low cholesteral diet.  We have avoided
    these products in the past.

    
    Warren

    Pesahcdic products won't include corn syrup, since most American
    Jews are of Ashkenazic background and will not eat corn during the
    holiday.   So, if something is marked as being kosher for Passover,
    no corn syrup.
    
    A few months ago I bought a really neat cookbook of Sephardic holiday
    foods.  The Passover section is interesting, but most of us wouldn't
    eat a good number of the dishes in it during Passover; they use
    a lot of rice and peas, etc.  However, it did have a bunch of
    interesting recipes for sweets (nut balls and things like that)
    - I always get asked to bring stuff for the Oneg Shabbat during
    Passover (since the people in charge of dredging up volunteers know
    that I will bake things rather bringing a bunch of canned cookies
    or hard-as-a-rock-Mandelbrot out of a box, etc.).

    I found the following note on the side of a box of egg matzoh.
    
    "According to Askenanzic practices, all egg matzoh may be eaten
    only by the young, infirm or aged.  If you are of Sephardic ancestry,
    consult your Rabbi."
    
    What is the explaination for this and why does it exclude healthy
    adults?  I don't remember seeing this before, but I might have
    overlooked it.

    I noticed that note on the egg matzoh, too.  I hope it means only
    for the seder (to which my very-observant brother-in-law always
    brings hand-made shemurah matzoh from New York, which costs around
    $1 a slice! Wow!!), because I LIKE egg matzoh.  There isn't anything
    in it that wouldn't be OK for Passover anyhow - the kind I buy is
    egg yolks, wheat flour, and apple juice - doesn't even have salt,
    which is a help for me.

    re .21
    
    I can't quote chapter and verse on this one, but the bottom line
    is that the message on the box is correct and applies to the whole
    passover holiday.
    
    According to tradition, the original matzah was made with flour
    and water only.  Anything else is not acceptable for fulfilling
    the commandment to eat matzah.
    
    Our sages recognized that regular matzah was not palatable for the
    young, old, or infirm.  Basically, it messes up your digestion (as
    if we didn't know).  Therefore, if people in these categories need
    to eat matzah during Passover, they may use egg matzah (also known
    as matzah ashira) as a substitute.
    
    We are only REQUIRED to eat matzah at the seder.  This must be regular
    matzah, matzah ashira is not acceptable for fulfillment of this
    mitzvah. During the rest of passover, we are not REQUIRED to eat
    matzah, so we could just as well eat none.
    
    If you're young, old, or infirm and you need to have matzah so you
    can make a motzi, I believe you're permitted to use matzah ashira
    for this purpose.
    
    The text probably goes on to specify exactly what is meant by "infirm."
    I seriously doubt that common irregularity qualifies.  For that,
    you'll have to consult a rabbi, rebbe, or one of the "talmiday
    chachamim" that read this notes file.
    
    Reb Sreb 

>    I can't quote chapter and verse on this one, but the bottom line
>    is that the message on the box is correct and applies to the whole
>    passover holiday.
    
>    We are only REQUIRED to eat matzah at the seder.  This must be regular
>    matzah, matzah ashira is not acceptable for fulfillment of this
>    mitzvah. During the rest of passover, we are not REQUIRED to eat
>    matzah, so we could just as well eat none.

    Reb Sreb,

    The above appears contradictory.  My understanding is that for adults
    of good health, matzah ashira is not acceptable for fullfillment of
    the mitzvah "to eat matzah" but is, never the less, Pesadik.  So, we
    can eat it but it isn't matzah.

    Gav

    Yes, it may appear contradictory.  But I believe that if you're
    in good health and middle aged, you're not allowed to eat matzah
    ashira on Pesach at all.
    
    If non-middle aged or sick you may eat matzah ashira, but not during
    the seder.
    
    It is forbidden for Jews to own chametz on Pesach.  Matzah ashira
    is not chametz, in that you're allowed to own it, and have it in
    your house.
    
    I guess I'll have to check my sources on this one.
    
    Dave

reply to: < Note 442.25 by BAGELS::SREBNICK 

>    Yes, it may appear contradictory.  But I believe that if you're
>    in good health and middle aged, you're not allowed to eat matzah
>    ashira on Pesach at all.

	Young, also.  This applies to all b'nei mitzvot. So applies to older
	people as well, only depending upon their health. If they're
	in good health, they cannot eat matzah ashira either.

>    
>    If non-middle aged or sick you may eat matzah ashira, but not during
>    the seder.
>    
>    It is forbidden for Jews to own chametz on Pesach.  Matzah ashira
>    is not chametz, in that you're allowed to own it, and have it in
>    your house.
>   
>    I guess I'll have to check my sources on this one.
    
	I've been reviewing Pescahim and Hilchot Pesach this week
	(surprise, right?). I believe you're replies are exactly "on" on this.

	You can OWN matzo ashira during Pesach, but you can't EAT it 
	any time during the chag.  "Kasher l'Pesach" Egg matzot, egg 
	matzah crackers, etc., fall in this category.

	"Irregularity" isn't considered a health excuse.  There's a required
	amount of matzah -- which isn't all THAT much -- that you have to 
	eat at the Seder. You're not _required_ to eat any more during 
	the whole rest of the chag.

	And I got into a few more questions, just to stir the pot...

	Our minhag is to eat "gebrukts". For example, I like to make a 
	"matzah lasagne". Also, sometimes, I've made chocolate covered
	matzah, i. e., genuine matzah covered with Pesadik pareve
	dark chocolate (you can also buy these commercially).

	Guess what?  On YomTov itself -- first two days -- using whole 
	matzot as a basis to make either of the above and/or related dishes
	constitutes making maztah ashira (and this is the majority
	opinion!). Simply, it seems that it "has to be "real" matzah, no more,
	and no less.

/don feinberg

    According to the Orthodox Union Kosher Directory (Passover 5748):

    "Matzoth Ashirah" - egg matzoh made from flour kneaded with fruit
    juice or eggs.  This matzoh may not be used for the mitzvah
    regardless of which flour is used.  This type of matzoh is commonly
    referred to as egg matzoh, since it is usually prepared with eggs.
    Water may not be used in the baking of egg matzoh since adding water
    to the dough would create instant leavenings.  According to European
    Halachic tradition, such matzoh may be consumed on Pesach only
    by the elderly, sick or young children who cannot digest regular
    matzoh.  Under normal circumstances, egg matzoh should *not* be used;
    both because it is feared that some water might have accidentally
    been blended into the dough, and in deference to the opinion which
    maintains that the mixture of flour with _any_ liquid other than
    water causes immediate chometz.

    Wait a second.  If you mix passover flour with water and make "kosher"
    matzo, it's okay, so how come adding egg makes instant chometz?
    There's an 18 minute rule, isn't there?  Something doesn't add up.

    You can't do this anyway due to airborn pollen and yeast, the
    mixture might start to rise...

    re .28
    
    All liquids are not the same in this regard.  Even with water, it
    has to be drawn the day before being used for baking matzoh.
    
    re .29
    
    Halacha predates our scientific knowledge of airborn yeast.
    Halachically, if it can't be seen with the naked eye, it doesn't
    exist (e.g. it's OK to eat cheese containing cheese mites).
    
    I think it's very interesting that yeast itself is not chometz.
    The OU certifies wine yeast as Kosher L'Pesach.
    
    Chag Sameach,
    Gerald