Conference taveng::bagels

    Obviously a manifestation of the pack mentality.  Everybody gang
    up on somebody.  Probably encouraged by gender "politicalization",
    commercial interests (that encourage the sale of t-shirt labels),
    and anti-semites.  May daughter is at college, and no reports yet
    of such activity.
    
    Herb

    This sort of thing begins to happen in every society where Jews live
    whenever the economy is threatened. The Jews, since they control
    the Fortune 100 and the entire world's monetary markets, are blamed.
    
    These innocent "jokes" bread and are bread from steriotypical hatred. 

    
    
    <  This sort of thing begins to happen in every society where Jews
    <  live whenever the economy is threatened.  The Jews, since they
    <  control the Fortune 100 and the entire world's monetary markets,
    <  are blamed.
    
    I can't quite catch the intent here: is "since they control... the
    entire world's monetary markets" meant to be sarcastic?  Seems to
    be the kind of sweeping statement of which stereotypes are born...
    
    (Might be more accurate to accuse the Jews of controlling all the
    nation's transportation.  We rented just about every bus on the
    East coast last Sunday for the march in Washington; they had to
    ship in extra from the midwest to accommodate the demand!)

    I heard the report on NPR last night, and was  
    very disturbed that this form of anti-semitism
    and suggested violence against women was considered 
    cute and clever by so many students.
    
    In addition to the slogans and t-shirts mentioned in note
    403, the reporter cited examples of graffiti such as 
    "I hate JAPS" and a swastika.  Neither cute nor clever, folks.
    
    An article in last week's Jewish Advocate said that the woman's 
    branch of the reform movement issued a statement protesting 
    JAP-baiting.
    

    < I can't quite catch the intent here: is "since they control... the
    < entire world's monetary markets" meant to be sarcastic?  Seems to
    < be the kind of sweeping statement of which stereotypes are born...
    
    Because the economy is in stress, this sarcastic stereotypical remark
    bothers you.  If I would have made this comment before the fall
    of the stock market, I think your sensitivity would have been
    different.  Of course it is "bullXXXX" that Jews control the world's
    economy, but the antisemites out there will blame us anyway, wnon't
    they Mr. Hitler where ever you happen to be rotting?
    
    

    While we all seem to agree that the "JAP baiting" is unacceptable
    behavior, but let's not overlook another wrong.  "JAP baiting" may 
    merely be another form of age old anti-semitism, but shouldn't we
    acknowledge that there are many of US that exhibit JAPlike behavior.
    We need to condemn the intolerance of others while improving our
    tolerance of others.  

    
    
    < Since they control the entire world's monetary markets...
    
    << Because the economy is in stress, this sarcastic stereotypical
    << remark bothers you.  If I would have made this comment before
    << the fall of the stock market I think your sensitivity would have
    << been different.
    
    Nope.  I would object to such a sweeping stereotypical statement
    even if the economy were not in stress.  I would object if you made
    a similar claim unrelated to the economy: for example, if you posited
    that the Jews control the press.  Mostly, I would object because
    neither statement is TRUE.  Although Jews may be disproportionately
    represented in many segments of American life--for example, numbers
    of Jews attending college-- I'd nonetheless be very wary of any
    sentence beginning "Jews control the..."
    
    
    Can we hear some people's definitions of what a JAP is?  Does the
    term connote anything positive to anyone, i.e., does it denigrate
    any positive qualities?  Does anyone have any idea where the word
    first came into useage?  

< Does anyone have any idea where the word first came into useage?  

Just a guess, but it sounds like the sort of target or character that 
Joan Rivers uses in her comedy routine. I'm not amused by her style, nor
by the way she portrays Heidi Abromowitz in her routine. Quite negative.

Dave

    I have three minor points to make.
    
    1. The title "JAP humor turns ugly" is mis-leading, isn't it? Is
       poking fun at others based on their race/nationality/wealth ever
       humor. (PLEASE DON'T FLAME! I am just saying that in my opinion
       such 'jokes' are sick!)
    
    2. This sort of activity has been practiced in many forms throughout
       history; against blacks and Jews particularly. I believe that
       it must be nipped in the bud or it may become an 'accepted' form
       of behaviour (sic!) and would be difficult to eradicate then.
    
    3. The NPR report said that at a college game, 4000 students shouted
       in unison whenever a Jewish coed walked into the stadium. What
       were the school authorities doing? The report said that this
       was a recurring activity and that all the Jewish female students
       were scared to walk in; surely someone from the staff must have
       noticed. I cite this as an example of the lack of faculty
       involvement in the activities of students outside the classroom.
    
    Finally, as a non-Jew, I would humbly suggest that you folks refrain
    from making statements such as "Jews control the economy". There
    are some idiots out there who already make such statements and your
    notes would only be more ammunition for them "See, the Jews themselves
    acknowledge this *FACT*!"
           
    
    -parthi

    When I was going to college (upstate NY), the term "JAP" was used
    to refer to a certain type of personality/appearance (in the same
    way that PUNK refers to a different personality/appearance); it
    had nothing to do with being jewish.
    
    I think everyone here is over-reacting.  Would everyone be as upset
    if the topic had been "PUNK humor turns ugly"?
    
    Steve-in-Colorado
    (who left the NE to get away from all the JAPs :-)
    

I am a bit surprised at the report. I have a daughter attending
U-Mass in Amherst. She is at the stage in her life where she's
convinced the world is broken and it's her job to fix it. She would
be the first to become very active at any sign of anti-feminism
and/or anti-Semitism, yet she hasn't even mentioned this. 

Is the NPR report supported by any other source?

-- Ron

< Note 403.2 by SAGE::PERLMAN "Eli B. Perlman" >
>             -< Innocence is forgotten when the poket is picked! >-
>
>    This sort of thing begins to happen in every society where Jews live
>    whenever the economy is threatened. The Jews, since they control
>    the Fortune 100 and the entire world's monetary markets, are blamed.
>    
>    These innocent "jokes" bread and are bread from steriotypical hatred. 

    A strong recommendation from your friendly neighborhood moderator,
    when being facetious use smiley faces.  This piece of netiquette
    along with DON'T SHOUT UNLESS YOU MEAN TO will go a long way toward
    clarity.

    Examples:
	:-)	regular
	8-)	glasses
	8^)	perky nose and glasses
	8^{)	perky nose, glasses and mustache (that's me 8^{)
	B^)	perky nose and cheap sunglasses

    Gavriel
    co-moderator

    I am surprised that the reaction against JAPS is so strong, but
    not at all surprised that it happened.
    
    I went to college at the University of Hartford.  In addition to
    the college of engineering, there were other colleges; a college
    of Business, an Art/Music school, liberal arts, and what I think
    of as a "remedial" college, that is one which after two years of
    attendance makes you eligible to enter a real college.
    
    There were many students from New York in attendance.  Many of them
    were Jewish, and from wealthy families.
    
    Among them were a group of girls who had been obviously spoiled
    rotten.  They had to go to college, like all good Jewish kids from
    wealthy families in New York.  But they really did not need to learn
    anything.  There was a bit of a competition among them to show just
    materially well-off they were; they typically drove Firebirds (some
    drove Mercedes!) or other flashy cars, dressed in obviously expensive
    clothing, and treated the faculty and not-so-priviledged students
    like clear inferiors.  I worked on campus in the computer lab, so
    I was obviously the lowliest of the low, barely fit to do their
    homework for them (G-d forbid they should have to do it themselves!).
    Being superior, they could ignore rules made for normal people,
    such as waiting in line for your turn (caused fun at the keypunches
    in the computer center sometimes), not smoking in classrooms, not
    bringing pets to class, etc.
    
    The most fortunate(?) of these girls would have a handsome Jewish
    male following them around, taking care of things like carrying
    their books and doing their homework.  These girls were very eligible
    if you came from a New York rich family, were handsome, and were
    in the Business school, but most boys who fit the description had
    come to Connecticut for college partially to get AWAY from these
    girls, so having a boy following you around was quite a status symbol.
      
    Most people, especially the Jewish men really hated these girls,
    for whom the term "Jewish American Princess" was very apt.
    
    Even when I was in school I could see the beginnings of the put-downs
    of these "clearly superior" people.  Typical joke:
    
    "How do you catch a JAP?"
    "Put a pair of grapefruit in your jeans"
                                                      
    It was not meant at the time as anti-semitic, as it was being done
    by the Jewish boys almost exclusively.  It was meant as a put-down
    of a particular stuck-up group.
    
    I don't know what the moral is (or if there is one), and I certainly
    don't like what has happened with JAP-bashing.
    
    The people who started it, both the JAPs and the JAP put-down artists
    have all graduated by now.  It looks like all that remains is the
    feelings, transmitted by seniors to freshmen without the reasoning
    behind it.  I hope it stops - soon.
    
    				Paul
    
    
    

    re: .13
    
    You know I aborted a file in which I was describing my experiences
    at the Univ. of Arizona in the '60's, because I was afraid that
    too many was misunderstand and flame me to infinity.  
    
    But Paul here seems to express some of the things that I was writing,
    only in my situation they were from Southern Calif. and drove Pontiac
    GTO's.  The "princess types" became my bete-noire, and the fact
    that most of them could be found in the sorority SDT (I was and
    I guess I still am against frats/sororities) was another factor
    in the equation.
    
    If the term "JAP" is being used as a blanket term for all Jewish
    women then anti-semitism has to be at the root.  However I must
    say that I am not surprised at these developments on college campuses
    thee days given the present political climate and orientation of 
    students.
    
    David

    re: .15

    Motti, I didn't see anything saying all of the girls from New York
    were from rich families.  It looked to me like it said all of the
    girls from rich families were from New York (big difference).

    re: general

    From the Jewish perspective, I think the important word in J.A.P. is
    PRINCESS.  Unfortunately, outside of that perspective, the important
    word seems to have become JEWISH.

    Gavriel

    
    
    	I'll stand my ground.  I don't like it.
    
    

    re: .15 & .17
    
    Chill out a bit!  You can't deny reality and say that all Jewish
    women in college were and are socialists and willing to give their
    lives for the cause of the people, au contraire.
    
    David 

I can recall JAP's and JAP jokes from the late '50's in Chicago.  As noted,
we told them as a reaction against an attitude.  No better (and no worse)
than Valley Girl jokes.

My understanding of the NPR report was that it started as a reaction against
a certain class of ostentatious bourgeois and their behavior, and spread to
Jewish women in general.  The reporter included comments on their speech
(Long Island dialect), hair style, clothing, and whatnot.

My impression was that there was a blend of naive anti-Semitism
(the SDT sorority stood for "Spend Daddy's Trillions," just as the
Jewish Men's fraternity ZBT stood, in my college days, for "Zillions,
Billions, and Trillions."); and jealous hatred of "little rich girls."

The phenomena seems (currently) to be confined to New York area colleges.

Martin.

    I can also remember a little homor book from the '60s, I think,
    called something like, "How to be a Jewish Princess".  Its preface
    mentioned that you didn't have to be Jewish, if I recall, but that
    "Jewish Princess" (which became JAP) was just the name.  The book
    then went on to show off all the silly stereotypical characteristics
    of the breed, again in what was at the time perceived as "clean
    fun" by most (though it was found offensive by some).  I'm pretty
    sure it came from a Jewish author.
    
    The last chapter of the book said that a Jewish Princess grew up
    to be a Balebosta (sp?).
    
    The NPR story seems to describe something rather removed from that
    era...
          fred

    The issue described here points up the extreme danger of
    stereotypes.  This is part of an important lesson that we all
    should have learned long ago.

    It seems that the stereotype was generated about 20 or more
    years ago to help poke fun at a group that some were jealous
    of.  This, in itself, is bad enough--it was started by Jews
    jealous of other Jews.  We do not need more infighting.

    Unfortunately, language, usage, and stereotypes are not
    static.  Being dynamic, they quickly move out of control of
    their original authors.  Next, the general public discovers
    that it can apply the stereotype more generally.  It begins
    to be used disparagingly about all Jewish women, and later
    about Jewish men, as well.

    I have spoken to folks who were back from college over Rosh
    Ha'Shanah and Yom Kippur.  They related tales of JAP-bashing,
    and even of participation in JAP-bashing.  They do not
    understand the dynamics of what they are doing.  The language
    and attitudes grow, side-by-side.  By putting ourselves down,
    we only encourage others to do so.  JAP-bashing should be
    recognized as anti-Semetic, right now--we must discourage it.

    Some people rationalize JAP-bashing by saying that we are
    only laughing at our own foibles.  I maintain that we are NOT
    laughing at OURSELVES; we are ostracizing a group of our own
    people.  Although it is healthy to be able to laugh at one's
    own weaknesses, it is unhealthy to degrade oneself in public,
    while also encouraging others to do so.  Why provide our
    detractors with amunition?  Do they need more than they can
    manufacture on their own?

    --Gary

    Re: .15
    
    It did not bother me much; Working in the College of Engineering
    Computer Center I did not have to deal with many of them, and they were
    a minor pain,  particularly compared with the business students who
    were a major pain.
    
    Sometimes they were fun - once in a while we (the students working
    in the computer center) would pick one and cause her to get an A in the
    computer course, even though she had no idea what was going on.  
    
    I was just trying to describe one place where the term JAP was picked
    up to describe a specific group, and to point out that it is not
    a specifically anti-Jewish term.     
    
    I did not mean to offend anyone from New York, or to suggest that
    it is not a nice state.
    
    				Paul

    
    
    
    	Oh please.
    
    

    I've occassionally heard JAP used to refer to J.A. non-Prinesses, and
    it *really* bugs me!  I must admit to a derogatory attitude to JAP's,
    because I feel that they reflect badly on me.  Schickse Goddesses (the
    non-Jewish equivalent) don't bother me nearly as much.  The ones who
    are the reason for the stereotype in the first place don't get a lot of
    my sympathy for their broken nails.
    
    No, this doesn't mean that I approve of JAP-bashing, even when it's
    directed at JAP's.  Part of it is anti-semitism, but part is also a
    loss of patience with the snooty, holier-than-thou attitude *some*
    little rich girls have.
    
    Beverly
    

    the term jap is definitely an antisemitic connotation. it is used
    for the purpose of insulting jewish women. this idea that it is a term
    to describe all types of so called snobby and spoiled women is 
    ridiculious. if that was the case why aren't there terms for other
    eth~ic groups. this is almost the same type of sick humor in which jews
    have made fun of themselves for years. as was mentioned earlier
    jewish comedians such as joan rivers and buddy hackett have always
    practiced this type of humor using the term jap and the description
    of the nice jewish boy who is nice and meek and is always a good
    provider but lacks other qualities when it comes to a relationship
    ect. ect. this way of thinking has almost come to be accepted as good jewish
    humor. 
    
    what i don't understand is that when the term jap is used in these
    colleges where are the jewish men. this type of antisemetic garbage
    cannot be stopped through college legislation. it seems to me
    the only way it can stop is by taking a stand and standing up for
    oneself. college rules don't buy respect. most important we have
    to stop accepting this type of so called jewish humor as being of
    the norm. when i hear the word jap,i personally just can't sit by 
    idly.to me pejorative connotations about jewish women can onlybe taken
    as insults to our wives and daughters which i don't think to many
    of us would stand for. if some jewish men use these terms or standby
    idly when this garbage is spewed out and don't take a stand what
    are we to expect, should the  college authorities fight our battle.
    the impetus has to start with us. these types of connotations
    have to be confronted not just on colleges but wherever need be.
    

    .25 suggests that because Jewish men do not take a stand, Jewish
    women will be the but of jokes forever. That is anti-women. Men
    are not the protectors of women. People are the protectors of each
    other. We are all at fault for not stopping this anti-Jewish/woman
    baiting.
    
    By the way, Joan Rivers is not funny anymore. Some would argue that
    she never was funny.

re .25

It was  suggested,  in  an  earlier reply, that Jewish men were the original
source  of  the term, and I believe that this is true- it was used mostly in
my  high school by Jewish boys.  But, despite that, it is still a shonda
fur  die  goyim,  much  like  anything  that can even be perceived as Jewish
anti-Semitism.(The  best  way  I  could think of saying that was in Yiddish-
give  me  a  shout  if  you  need  a Xlation.  It was partly envious, partly
affectionate, but mostly derogatory.
Yes, we need to nip this in the bud.  It will certainly spread.  
And, just remember-Poland was relatively hospitable for a while... 
Chuck

    	The term JAP for Jewish American Princess was first used right
    after the Second World War. The term JAP for Japanese was fresh
    in the minds of all Americans. At that time in American Jewish history
    there was emerging a middle to upper middle class Jewish population.
    The fathers and grandfathers who came from Europe with out a pot
    to piss in started to make a few bucks and wanted their daughters
    to have a better life than their mothers had so the girls were 'slightly'
    spoiled. Some of the new rich started to act quite uppity. They
    had maids and chauffeurs and there was very little the girls had to
    do for themselves. The Jewish boys who were used to having many
    things done for them by their old fashioned Jewish mothers did not
    like the way the new generation of Jewish girls were acting. 

    
    G'day,
    
    You Yanks have got the weirdest hangups!! 
    
    Don't you know that JAP == Jewish AUSTRALIAN Princess.
    
    Mike  (formely from Oz)
    

    Here in New Jersey there are also a lot of IAPs (Italian American
    Princesses).  Seems that the tradition of spoiling their daughters
    comes from something in our Eastern European heitage or maybe its
    just a term for the nouveau rich.  Whatever the term its not
    limited to the NY area (read White Palace).  

    
    
    	Since when is your tuchus not on your body?
    
    

    re -1 & -2
    
    There have been comments that JAP is a NY term.  The book White
    Palace deals with the life of a Jewish man in ST. Louis.  His wife
    is described by her Mother as being a JAP.  The author Glenn Savan
    is from ST. Louis.  The assumtion that NJ is not part of the NY
    Area was not intended, but might be wishfully desired.
    
    WS