Conference taveng::bagels

    It is not the vineyard, but who makes the wine that is at issue.
    As I understand it, wine that is to be used for Kiddush (i.e. Kosher
    wine) must not be made by "idolaters". Since it is not easy to tell
    who is and isn't one, the common practice is to allow wine to be
    made only by Jews. This conveniently gets around the question. For
    this reason, kosher wine must be made by Jews. This is the traditional
    opinion. However, I have seen discussions around the idea that wine
    made in a monastary could be considered as acceptable, because clearly,
    the monks are not idolaters and believe in G-D.
    
    I hope this helps. Anyone out there, please correct me if I got
    it a bit wrong. I am not an expert.
    
    Jack

    I wrote this response much earlier in the day but couldn't post it
    because our system went "out to lunch". My reply parallels what
    Jack said in the previous reply. His question about wine made in
    a Christian monastery is the same question that Miamonides dealt
    with almost 1000 years ago.
    
    
    Re .0 
    
    For a wine to be kosher the grapes are grown by a Jew, they are
    crushed by a Jew, the juice is fermented by a Jew, and finally it
    is bottled by a Jew. On top of that the whole process is
    supervised by a mashgiach(sp). Since wine is used by idol
    worshipers as well, we must be absolutely sure that there was not
    even the slightest chance that anyone connected with producing the
    wine had thoughts of idol worship while manufacturing the wine. 
    
    Miamonides (Moses ben Miamon) whose lesser known writings had to
    do with transactions between Jews and non-Jews, declared that
    Christians were not idol worshipers. However, this was not
    sufficient to remove the ban on non kosher wine.
    
    Feeling run very high about this subject. Many people that I know
    take an extra precaution and will not drink Manashewitz(sp) wine.
    They appear to go through all the steps but do not watch the
    process closely enough to insure that the wine is kosher. The
    Union Of Orthodox Rabbis has withdrawn their endorsement on some
    of their factories. I've noticed that on some of their products
    they no longer have a "U-O". Its been replaced by a K. A "K" by
    itself is not owned by any organization and means absolutely
    nothing. 
    
    My own preference for a Kidush wine is Kedem, Kesser, or Seven
    Seventy. These brands are safe and locally available. From my
    selections you can tell I'm not a wine mavin. I only drink wine
    for Kidush and Passover. 
    
    			Fred
    

    Jack & Fred,
    
    Thanks a lot for the answers, I kind of thought that the "idol
    worshipers" clause was what made a wine kosher or not.  I can see
    that this won't go over too well with Marion.
    
    David

    Fred, perhaps you could help me with a related question (or anyone
    else who may know the answer). 
    
    Does wine have to be Kosher for use as a beverage, rather than for use
    during Kiddush? In other words, if I am at dinner, can I have a good
    bottle of California or French wine with my meal, as a beverage, or
    must it be Kosher? 
    
    I would assume that anything we eat must be Kosher, but we can drink
    fruit juices, from which wine is made, and which fall under very
    different rules than those for Kosher wine. 
    
    Any of you out there who can help with this, please do.
    
    Jack

    The answer is that the wine must be kosher.  There is no difference
    between food and drink (other than wine) with respect to kashruth.
    Many people consider items like orange juice to be OK because it
    only contains oranges, which are kosher, just as people buy oranges
    at the store and consider them to be kosher.
    
    Wine is a special case, because to be kosher it must be made by
    non-idolators.
    
    You can get good kosher wines these days.  At the Butcherie in
    Brookline, for example, you can get several good kosher wines,
    including several Bordeaux wines, the Yarden israeli imports, Asti
    Spumonti, and more.  Gordons in Waltham also has some kosher imports.
    And Shapiros in New York City has a bunch of interesting wines - I
    got a couple bottles of 1982 Red Bordeaux last time I was there,
    and they told me they were arranging to import Perrier Joet Champagne!
    
    				Paul
    
    

    Thanks Paul. And here are two more to add to your list;
    
    Gan Eden and Hagafen Cellars. Both are Rabbi certified Kosher,
    including for Pesach.
    
    Both of these vineyards are in California (Napa, I think). They
    make the typical varietal California wines. I have tried the Hagafen
    wines, and they are pretty good. They are also available at the
    Butcherie.
    
    Jack

    I have been drinking the "gourmet" kosher wines for several years
    now and have to report that I have been pleased with the wines that
    Kedem has been importing.  You may also want to notice the greater
    variety of wines from Carmel that have come into this country, quite
    an improvement over what used to be available (you know the adom
    atic, the kind of wine you have on a kibbutz dining room table on
    Friday nights).
    
    I would also recommend the Gamla wines from Israel, pretty good
    selection.  I also sampled a great Cabernet Sauvignon from the Rav
    Herzog's vineyard and bottled under his name.
    
    If we keep this up we could start a kosher wine notesfile :-.
    
    David
 

    Forgive my ignorance on this subject, but:
    I thought I read somewhere once that in order for kosher wine to
    remain "kosher" when the unopened (!) bottle is handled by shippers
    who may not be Jewish, the wine has to be "cooked" before bottling
    (meaning, apparently, heated to some high temperature).  That might
    explain why a lot of it tastes somewhat cooked (especially some
    of the Kedem kiddush wines).

reply to < Note 300.8 by CADSYS::RICHARDSON >
>>                        -< keeping kosher wine kosher >-
>>
>>    Forgive my ignorance on this subject, but:
>>    I thought I read somewhere once that in order for kosher wine to
>>    remain "kosher" when the unopened (!) bottle is handled by shippers
>>    who may not be Jewish, the wine has to be "cooked" before bottling
>>    (meaning, apparently, heated to some high temperature).  

	That's largely right. 

	You will see, on some (most) bottles of kosher wine -- and usually in
	small print, in Hebrew -- "yayin m'vushal", lit. "cooked" or
	"boiled" wine.

	It's not just non-Jewish handlers, by the way.  For many,
	the difference is between observant (i. e., Shomer Shabbat, etc.) 
	Jews and anyone else. They will often use
	non-m'vushal wine for themselves, but, for example, if they're 
	having guests, and there's any question of observance (particularly 
	like at a Seder where there may be many guests of varying Jewish 
	backgrounds, i. e., observance levels), m'vushal is the rule. Shulchan 
	Aruch deals with this at some length, by the way. This sort of 
	custom is not just limited to wine, but also reaches into some other 
	foods as well, in somewhat different forms. If you want to get the
	whole story, I strongly  recommend that you read the original 
	source material rather than my 25-words-or-less raving.

>>>	That might
>>>	explain why a lot of it tastes somewhat cooked (especially some
>>>     of the Kedem kiddush wines).

	I don't know, properly. I keep both kinds around, for reasons
	noted above. I find, I think, greater bottle-to-bottle differences
	just due to "other" factors [i. e., "Great vintage, this!  What year
	was it? Oh! Last Thursday afternoon?" :-)  ] rather than m'vushal/
	non-m'vushal.

/don feinberg

    There is more to kosher than meets the eye, at least according to
    the explicit certificates of the Rabanut given here. There is the
    requisite that they haven't beeen made out of grapes collected during
    a "Shemita" year (7th year, when the fields were supposed not to be
    worked upon), "Orlah" - I don't know what it means in this context
    - etc.
    
    One more thought about Yayin Mevushal, boiled or pasteurized wine:
    it seems that this is not considered any longer to be wine, not
    only by Jews, but also by our cousins, the moslems. In moslem law
    it is forbidden to have wine or alcoholic beverages, but I read
    somewhere that cooked wine is permitted (I don't know if by all
    different moslem variations).

    There's a Japanese wine called Calpis (or something close to that) made
    from fermented milk.  (I don't remember the exact name because we
    always called it by I thought they'd said -- Cow-Piss.)  The milk is
    presumably pasturized.  I'm glad I'm not going to have to make a ruling
    about what kind of kosher it could be.

    re:-.1
    Calpis is not a wine product, it is no more alcoholic than Grape
    Nehi.  It is a milk ferment which is mixed about 3:1 with water
    to produce a beverage.
    
    Since the Japanese language does not really have our "L" sound, the
    name is not what it looks like.  It is sold in America as Calpico
    (changed for obvious reasons).  I've seen it at Yahinoya in Cambridge.
    I'm pretty sure it's milchig, like yoghurt or kefir (also milk
    ferments).