Conference taveng::bagels

    
   Hello Henri
    
    Welcome on board! BAGELS is a very nice conference.Let me send you
    (and of course to all the readers of this conference) my wishes of
     HANOUCA SAMEA'H from Jerusalem!
   
    (BTW: tu n'est pas le seul a souffrir en anglais!!)
    
    /Philippe
    

    HENRI,
    
    WELCOME TO BOTH DIGITAL AND THE NOTES FILE.  IT'S A FUN WAY
    TO STAY IN TOUCH WITH OTHER "MEMBERS OF THE TRIBE".
    HOPE THE HOLIDAYS ARE JOYOUS ONES!
    BONNE ANNEE!!
    
    JILL COHEN
    NY AREA
       

    SOYEZ LE BIENVENU AU RESEAU ELECTRONIC DE LA COURONNE JUIVE (BAGELS).
    C'EST UN PLAISIR D'AVOIR UN MAROCAIN ADDITIONNE A CE RESEAU.
    ANA KHRZT MN EL MAGHREB HADI TMNYA OU ASHRIN AM. AUTREMENT DIT J'AI
    QUITTE RABAT DEPUIS L'INDEPENDENCE.
    ENCORE UNE FOIS, BIENVENU ET HAG SAMEAH! LE'HITRAOT BEKAROV!
    

    Baruch Habaah l'bagels, Henri.  Ani gam yodaiah Tsarphatit, aval
    ani yotair bituach b'sapha shelanu ve Anglit.
    
    David

    Yeah, but what's it all mean?

    Another WELCOME from ISRAEL.
    
    It's nice to read HEBREW in the BAGELS, maybe it's the time 
    to start a HEBREW conference?
                    
    Avi                                   
    

    Pour tous vos francophones il y a une conference (en francais):
    
    		TSC01::FRENCH
    
    Frapper KP7 (SELECT) pour ajouter cette conference a votre NOTEBOOK.
    
    Au revoir dans TSC01::FRENCH.
    

     
     Mais, si l'on ecrit une note en francais en cette conference, je doute
     que le directuer puisse la comprendre.  Donc Son Majeste le Roi de
     Bagels ni la cachera ni l'effacera.  N'est-ce pas? 
     
     --M Topaz 

    C'EST LA MERE MICHELLE QUI A PERDU SON CHAT! QUI CRIT PAR
    FENETRE QUI EST CE QUI LUI RENDRA? C'EST COMPERE LUSTUCRU QUI LUI
    A REPONDU, ALLEZ LA MERE MICHELLE VOTRE CHAT N'EST PAS PERDU.
    
    JAI ESSAYER D'UTILISER LA CONFERENCE FRANCAISE SANS REUSSIR.
    J'AI UN PRO350 DONNEZ MOIS DES INSTRUCTIONS EN DETAIL COMMENT ON
    PEU UTILISER CETTE CONFERENCE.
    MERCI ET AU REVOIR.
    

    Oh, that sounds very gound, we need such people on TSC01::FRENCH.
    I mean people with that humour, and the ability to express themselves
    in French, - but also people reading only - are welcome to participate
    also in the Notes Conference TSC01::FRENCH.
    
    Again, I am setting up this my answer so that you may just hit KP7,
    the SELECT key of your terminal, in order to add TSC01::FRENCH to
    your Notebook; you may then access that conference, too.
    
    I am sorry to say, at the same time, that the machine running that
    conference is not up right now for several days, the French mains
    net has got problems, - but they will be back at some time.
    
    By the way, I am not a moderator (!) of TSC01::FRENCH, just a
    participant. AU REVOIR!
    
    If the details I gave are not sufficient, I will be happy to add
    more. Just ask for them.

    Translate this stuff or lose it, I need to be sure if it contains
    profanity or anything objectionable and I do not speak French !

    Nest'ce Pa ?

    Salut a tous,
    
    Je me permets d'ecrire en Francais car si j'ai bien compris certains
    d'entre vous aimeraient correspondre en Francais.
    
    Je tiens tout d'abord a vous remercier pour votre accueil dans cette
    conference et surtout j'apprecie enormement votre humour et votre
    esprit. Mais moi dans mon cas j'aimerai mieux correspondre en Englais
    afin d'ameliorer mon expression, so if you don't mind I would like
    to finish this memo in a Shakespeare language.
    
    Its my turn to wish you (late) Happy Hanouka
    
    Chalom
    

     re .11 ("Translate this stuff or lose it..."):
     
     OK.
     
     254.8> Mais, si l'on ecrit une note en francais en cette conference, je
     254.8> doute que le directuer puisse la comprendre.  Donc Son Majeste le
     254.8> Roi de Bagels ni la cachera ni l'effacera.  N'est-ce pas? 

     "The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog, and Cinderella and
     the Prince lived happily ever after, even though her parents objected
     to her marrying a gentile.  N'est-ce pas?"
     
     --Mr Topaz

    atta tsarich lilmod tsarfatit . anahnu medabberim tsarfatit, ivrit,
    sfaradit vegam aravit. 
    
    i assure you there are no profanities or controversial subjects.
    just educational and nostalgic topics.
    
    if you still feel strong about deleting non english topics, go ahead
    and have fun. 
    
                                shana tova umtuka lekulekhem.
                                bonne et heureuse anne a tous.
                                ykoun l'aam mezyane likoum.
                                buenos anyos y felicidad.
                                a happy new year to you all !
    
                                                              
         

>    atta tsarich lilmod tsarfatit . anahnu medabberim tsarfatit, ivrit,
>    sfaradit vegam aravit. 

kodem kol hu tsarich lilmod ivrit. benatayim naaseh hilulah vehinga, mah?
...im rak yadanu ech.   

ech korim le'notes-conference' beivrit?  pegishat-machshav? mesiba-elektronit?
(gam ani hayiti smecha lehitkatev beivrit, afilu beotiot latiniot.)

K                                                              
         

    ANAHNU KORIM LE ' NOTES-CONFERENCE' BEIVRIT.
    
                                 MAHBERET SHEL YENTE
                                 -------------------
                                        O
    
                               HADO'AR LA NO'AR HA VAXY
    
                           SHABBAT SHALOM!
    
                           

    Mike,
    
    Even myself (!) can assure you that nothing serious was said in
    the French sentences ahead, nor anything profane or whatever.
    
    Again, I am repeating my offer for those interested in French
    writing/reading conference:
    	Hit KP7 (SELECT) of your keyboard to add TSC01::FRENCH
    	to your Notebook.
    This morning in fact I could access that conference again, I hope
    that it will go on.

One of our customers is using this language (Hebrew in English letters)
for developping some software (it is used for variable names, documentation,
etc.). They've developped a set of exact rules on how to translate each
letter in each situation. By-the-way, they call the result "Yiddish"
(as opposed to "Chinese" which is the lower case English letters equivalent
to 7-bit Hebrew).

Nitsan.

It seems a bit incorrect to call Hebrew in English letters "Yiddish," since
there is already a real language called Yiddish.

/john

    Whether we start engaging in discussions in Latinized Hebrew
    (Yiddish???), or other languages, this really doesn't matter.  The
    important thing is that it is bound to turn off many people who
    read this notesfile, and who might like to paticipate.
    
    For those of us who would like to use Ivrit, I propose that we start
    a separate notesfile for HEBREW, such as the Francophones have done
    with TSC01::FRENCH.
    
    David	    

    Ok, but I can not keep it here, unfortunately.

    

    How about a note for Hebrew and another for Yiddish. We tried it about
    a year and a half ago but it never got off the ground. If we can keep
    two notes going maybe then it would be a good idea to start a separate
    conference. I'd like to participate in the Yiddish note. 
    
    			Fred

    If you are going to do that, (start two separate topics), can you
    PLEASE include the english also, so we in learn mode can do just
    that?
    
    THX???
    
    Gale

    re: .21
    
    Well I made the proposal, so I guess I ought to investigate the
    possibilities of starting a HEBREW notesfile on our system.  Of
    course you'll have to understand that it may not be possible here
    because of local politics.  MIS and Engineering are locked in
    internecine warfare over our data resources.  If I can do it, then
    I'll try my hand at moderating (oy va voy aleinu!).
    
    re: .22
    
    Fred, Ich vaysh nicht ganook Yiddish lehios moderator frum di YIDDISHE
    notesile.
    
    re: .23
    
    The responsibility for English translation would have to lie with
    the author(s) of the notes/replies.
    
    David

Re .22:

>   How about a note for Hebrew and another for Yiddish.

You mean a note for "Yiddish" and another for Yiddish. You don't have the
Hebrew characters on your terminals!


Nitsan.

>< Note 254.25 by TAV02::NITSAN "Duvdevani, DEC Israel" >

>You mean a note for "Yiddish" and another for Yiddish. You don't have the
>Hebrew characters on your terminals!

Nitsan, when we write Hebrew in Latin characters, the result is called
"transliterated Hebrew", not "Yiddish".  (Note: trans-litera-ted, meaning,
letter-substituted, NOT translated!)  You are right, writing and reading
transliterated Hebrew is a pain in the ass, and having terminals and software
to allow us to actually write and read Hebrew in Hebrew characters would
be **far** preferable.

I have a question for you.
Why do you insist on calling this stuff "Yiddish"?  I suspect that this
has something to do with what you think Yiddish is.  Maybe you have been
taught that Yiddish is a bastard non-language, a jumble of dialects that
amounts only to being a jargon for illiterates.   And similarly, you are
saying that Hebrew written in Latin characters is also a 'bastardization',
a mixed-up jumble, and that is why you ironically call it "Yiddish".  The
only problem with this point of view (assuming, of course, that this is
indeed what you meant) is that it is based on a grand fallacy about the
nature of Yiddish.  This low opinion of Yiddish as a language has its 
roots in 'shelilat hagolah', and in the apologetics of the Haskallah, 
not in an evaluation of Yiddish from a linguistic, or historical, 
or (to the extent that languages have their individual beauty and differing
strengths) aesthetic point of view.

K 

    re:.26
    
    Kathy, I think you're misinterpreting the use of the word "Yiddish"
    by Nitsan.  I don't think he was out to "denegrate" the Yiddish
    language.  Anyways it wasn't his terminology, but that of a customer.
    
    I think you jumped on this to bring back a very stereotypical argument.
    There wasn't any need of being defensive about the Galut, etc.
    
    David 

>    < Note 254.26 by LSMVAX::ROSENBLUH >         
                       -< 'Iddish: Safah velo zhargon  >-
>Maybe you have been
>taught that Yiddish is a bastard non-language, a jumble of dialects that
>amounts only to being a jargon for illiterates.  

    I think this is one of the best definitions of Yiddish I have ever
    heard. However, if it was good enough for my grandfather it's good
    enough for me.
    
    			Fred
     

I realize that Nitsan was not consciously out to denigrate the
Yiddish language.  I was merely pointing out the ideological and 
propagandistic background that makes his usage possible.  He might not 
explicitly agree with that background (I hope he doesn't) but his use of the
term Yiddish to mean 'a language that's not really a language' depends
on those pejorative meanings.

Given this, I don't think I am misinterpreting Nitsan's use of the word
Yiddish.  I wasn't, in fact, assuming very much about Nitsan's intentions
in using the term, I was assuming relative naivete about the issues I
raise, and I was trying to shed light.

I do not know which argument you are referring to (at the end of
your message) as being 'very stereotypical'.   Could you enlighten me?

K

re < Note 254.28 by GRAMPS::LISS "ESD&P Shrewsbury" >
>                      -< Not a language - But still good >-

>>Maybe you have been
>>taught that Yiddish is a bastard non-language, a jumble of dialects that
>>amounts only to being a jargon for illiterates.  

>    I think this is one of the best definitions of Yiddish I have ever
>    heard. However, if it was good enough for my grandfather it's good
>    enough for me.
    
>    			Fred

Except that if you believe that about Yiddish, you are dead wrong.
Wrong according to linguists, linguistic anthropologists, historians
of language, and literary critics.  Wrong according to structuralists,
modernists, functionalists, empiricists, and semioticists.

So how come you think that Yiddish is a bastard non-language?      
What do you think makes a language a 'real' language?

K

Re. 26 and the following:

You have to distinguish between the nick-names people here usually give to 
some data entry methods and my personal opinions of Hebrew, Yiddish, etc.

[1] Many people here refer to 7-bit Hebrew written in lower-case equivalent
    English letters as "Chinese". The term is widely spread among computer
    programmers for years. I guess the reason is that it really sounds like
    Chinese when you try to read it. For example: "Nitsan" in Hebrew is made
    of 4 letters: Nun-Yod-Tsadi-Nunsofit. In "Chinese" it will be "pivo" or
    from right to left: "ovip". Also some people refer to Hebrew in English
    letters (like "Boker tov") as "Yiddish". I GUESS the reason is that for
    Hebrew only speakers, Yiddish looks similar on writing. Anyhow, both terms
    are just nick-names for methods of data entry / data representation.

[2] I personaly speak Hebrew and English, but know very few words in Yiddish
    (I know how to count...). Yiddish IS considered "safa galutit" (language
    with "Galut" orientation) among some people in Israel, especially the
    young ones. This was mentioned in some other note in this file. I still
    think that (for example) some jokes can never be translated from Yiddish
    to ANY other language.

I have to gey shlofen now,
Nitsan.

    re: Yiddish, Safot Galutiot (galut languages), etc.
    
    When I remarked about Kathy R. using a "stereotypical" argument
    in her reply to Nitsan, it might have been the wrong adjective to
    use.  I read between the lines, and saw the Israel vs. the Galut
    debate/discussion/discourse/diatribe/whathaveyou.	You know the
    "where should a Jew live and bring up his/her children" subject?
    
    When I first came to Israel in the early '70's, I experienced some
    young Israeli's reactions to Yiddish, it being a "symbol of the
    past" to them.  It struck me as strange then, even in those days
    of gung-ho Zionism.  After all I was brought up in a Yiddish speaking
    household, and that was offensive to me.
    
    But I think that time has changed that somewhat.  Israelis are always
    hot to learn one safa galutit, the one we're communicating in, and
    those lines in front of the American embassy on Hayarkon aren't
    exactly filled with people who are disinterested in the Galut.
    
    The truth is though that Yiddish is not a dead language, although
    it sure ain't in a healthy state.  It seems to be in a moribund
    state, breathing, but it could die by the next century.  I think
    it's a good language, but I also wish that it wasn't influenced
    so heavily by "foreign" languages, i.e., German.
    
    I guess the solution would be to live in Israel, and speak both
    Hebrew and Yiddish (and a little Arabic wouldn't hurt either).
    
    David
   	
             
	
    

    Speaking as a former linguistics major, Yiddish is a dialect of
    German.  Sure it has a large number of loans from Hebrew, etc,
    but it's just another German dialect.  Languages aren't people
    so this is not saying "Yiddish speakers are Germans".
    
    Also speaking as a linguistics major, the difference between a
    language and a dialect is easy to explain:  a language is a
    dialect with an army and a navy!  (Quote from famous dead person
    whose name I have forgotten)  If the Spanish Armada had succeeded
    and Spain had ruled England since then, English would be noted 
    as an obscure bunch of dialects related to Frisian...
    
    			-John Bishop

    not to get too far off on the tangent...
    
    I recall hearing that Yiddish is a dialect of _Low German_, not
    _High German_ which is the modern "German" language.  Low German
    is the predecessor language of Dutch and, a bit more remote, English.
    Yiddish is closer to High German than the other modern languages,
    but even closer to the otherwise-dead Low German.
    
    "High" and "Low" refer to elevation above sea level -- the Benelux
    countries are sometimes called "the Low Countries".
    
    Am I on target, or has my memory faded?
           fred
           amateur etymologist

    No Yiddish is Hoch Deutch or High German.  High meaning from the
    high lands not the low lands (close to sea level) such as the 
    Netherlands which speak Platt Deutch.
    
    WS
    

    Well, you even could state that English is just another form of
    German, having taken a different development route ...
    

    ?What was the base note all about...oh...welcome aboard!
    Let's see if I can 'glue' some pieces together here. My 2 agurot's
    worth.  Warning:  Possible notes overflow.
    
    To an Israeli (at least yours truly), Yiddish has always represented
    Galut (~Diaspora/Exile) thinking and posture.   When I was young
    I not only refused to talk the language, I even avoided listening.
    Except on occassion when some relatives would come to the house
    and the conversations turned backward in time regarding their
    childhoods in Europe and events of the Holocaust,  I typically
    wanted to hear and speak only Hebrew ; (stereotypical) Sabra
    mentality.
    
    As a note, it seems to me now (after my older sister and I 'taught'
    our parents the 'mother tongue') that Yiddish was spoken by our
    elders in time of usually sad reminiscing or to express themselves
    on some very joyous occassion.   Hebrew, once they learned the
    language, was used for the day-to-day interactions.
    
    When we came to the U.S.A. (when I was 8), I was fairly angry about
    the decision and refused to speak English.   On the first day of
    school, my teacher thought she could break the ice with me by speaking
    Yiddish.  (I think she gave up on me right there and then!)
    
    That was then  "When We Were Very Young".
    These days, I am often very enlightened to hear and even try some
    Yiddish phrases.   The language is so rich in description and
    hyperbole that very often phrases simply refuse to be translated
    to another language.   Have a look at I.B. Singer for example.
    Listen to my mother's uncle describe a scene of a half a dozen people
    in a restaurant.
                                                         
    As a tribute to the language, I recall visiting a friend in Princeton
    University.  He was very excited about his upcoming semester schedule.
    On the list was Yiddish.   (Ivy League Yiddish).
    
    Anyway, the storal of the mory is that once you start to cross over
    the National-to-Universal bridge,  Yiddish and Galut doesn't threaten
    you.  Instead you become more open and are eager to learn.

Hi.  Been busy for a while, but this is a topic of some great interest to me,
as a linguist with a special interest in German and its dialects (and moderator
of the DEUTSCH notes conference).

It seems that in this topic there are three different things being discussed:
	1. The current feeling among Jews (in Israel or elsewhere) about Yiddish
	2. The customer's use of the term Yiddish to describe Hebrew in Latin
	   characters
	3. The nature of the language Yiddish

Not being Jewish or having any more familiarity with the issues in (1) I will
refrain from commenting on that.

On (2) I will simply say what I said in .19, that I find it wrong to call
something that isn't Yiddish Yiddish, because Yiddish is real.  It's even
more silly when you consider the fact that Yiddish is intended to be written
in Hebrew characters!  If Latinized Hebrew needs a name, make up another name,
maybe pig-Yiddish (like pig-Latin).  Or pick some other animal :-)

On (3) I've quite a bit to say; but having just discovered the new topic
entitled "Yiddish" I'm deleting the remainder of this note and reposting it as
261.2.

/john

re < Note 254.38 by COVERT::COVERT "John R. Covert" >

Hi John.  Since I was partly responsible for all of this silliness
(taking offense at calling tranliterated Hebrew (which is the correct
phrase for Hebrew-in-non-Hebrew-characters)), let me reveal that
after Nitsan's latest note, I saw a great light go off in my head
and understood why his customer calls it 'Yiddish'.

To a person who speaks and reads Hebrew, and does NOT know Yiddish,
seeing written Yiddish is a UNIQUE experience.  Why?  Well, those of
us who speak, say English, are quite used to the notion that other
languages, which we do not at all comprehend, are also written using
the same character set. 

But for the native Hebrew-reader, this is a strange new concept.
There are NOT a multitude of languages which use the Hebrew character
set; there are only two! Hebrew and Yiddish. (am ignoring Aramaic which
is cognate of Hebrew, and other Judeo-X languages which are basically seen
only by arcane scholars).  So, for native Hebrew-readers, 'Yiddish' is
the pardigmatic transliterated language.  The other points I made, about
the low esteem in which Yiddish is held, and etc. still hold, but I am
willing to concede that this singularity of Yiddish is the primary
cause for the slang usage of 'Yiddish' to mean transliterated.

Kathy

    Is Ladino written in Hebrew characters?  I used to know someone
    who was born in Turkey whose family spoke Ladino, but it never occurred
    to me ask him what the written language looks like (I don't know
    if he himself knows any more Ladino that I do Yiddish, anyhow).
    
    And what do you call the "Persian" script that was sometimes used
    to write Hebrew in places like Iraq?

    LADINO IS WRITTEN IN HEBREW CHARACTERS. ESPECIALLY IN THE TRANSLATION
    OF THE PRAYER BOOKS, SHABBAT, ROSH HASHANAH AND YOM KIPPOUR.
    IN ADDITION, THERE ARE BOOKS WRITTEN IN LADINO (HEBREW CHARACTERS)
    FOR STORIES, POEMS, SONGS ETC....
    THE REASON SOME LADINO PRAYERS ARE WRITTEN IN  LATIN CHARACTERS
    IN TODAY'S PRAYER BOOKS IS DUE TO THE FACT (UNFORTUNATELY) THAT
    NOT TOO MANY ARE WELL VERSED IN READING VOWEL FREE HEBREW.(BELI
    NEKUDOT).
    IN ADDITION TO LADINO, THERE ALSO EXIST, ARABIC DIALECTS WRITTEN
    IN HEBREW CHARACTERS. THIS IS USED PRIMARILY BY MOST MID EASTERN
    AND NORTH AFRICAN JEWS.
    

    Why don't you use note 32 ????