Conference taveng::bagels

search

I can remember being in Hebrew School and being asked this same questions
("Are you a Jewish American or an American Jew?").  I never was too sure about
the answer, but I do tend to think of myself as the latter.  This is because
I tend to answer "Jewish" when people ask what about my ethnic origin (this
leaves a few people confused).

Although this wasn't the original intent of this note, the title is very
close to a subject I was going to write about anyway.  I am not at all religious
nor am I interested in becoming religious.  I am, however interested in learning
about my religion and heritage.  Could anyone point me to some books or
other sources (in addition to this notes file) on Judaism both as a heritage
and a religion.

By the time I finished with the above mentioned Hebrew School (at my Bar
Mitzvah--when else?) I wasn't interested in such things.  A year discussing
difference of religion with a (rather devout) Catholic roommate made me
realize how little I actually new about my religion (and heritage).

					Thanks,
					Michael

Searching for ones identity is a dynamic process. What one considers
them self depends on what point you tune into someone's life. For myself,
I was brought up Orthodox. I dropped out at age seventeen and soon after
found myself attending a Reform Temple. After many years I switched to a
very conservative shul. Last month (don't laugh) I switched to an
orthodox shul run by the Lubovitche. With  all this I still don't know
what label to put on myself. 


			Shalom,
				Fred

Re: 14.2
 
A great place to start is _The_Jewish_Catalog_ series by Strassfeld,Strassfeld
and (?).  They point to lots more sources if you're interested in a particular
category.
 
--Bobbi  (NIMBUS::FOX)

Re -.1

Sounds interesting. Who is the author, publisher, and what is the 
publication date?

			Fred

I would suggest that the Jewish Catalog series can tend to be a bit 
superficial since it was first published I believe at he same time that
the Whole Earth Catalogue was in vogue. However there may very well be
references in it that can be useful. Why not find a bookstore devoted to
Jewish books and religious articles and simply browse there. I know of
many such stores in New York and there probably is at least one in the Boston
area. I also seem to remember a series of books authored by someone named
Rabbi Bunim one of one titled Jewish Ethics which was very good.
                                          David

I too suggest the first two volumes of the Jewish Catalog.  They first came
out in the early 70's, but a lot of information is pretty useful.  Whether
it is indeed superficial, you'll have to decide.  I have found it to contain
a wealth of information, especially when I am stuck trying to explain things
to people.  

As far as heritage is concerned, I just purchased Abba Eban's book Heritage,
which was published as a companion to the PBS television series.  What I
have had a chance to read has been very interesting, especially since his
perspective is historical rather than biblical.  The PBS series had a rather
powerful impact on me, giving me a much better perspective on the role of
Jews in history than all the Jewish schooling I received.  Obviously, the
TV series was limited by time, the need for visual impact, etc.  But it
triggered a strong interest in finding out more.  If the series is repeated, 
I highly recommend it.  I know people who videotaped it as the basis for 
classroom discussions.

Alex Conn
          

American, British, Brazilian, or whatever is a NATIONALITY, whereas Judaism,
Catholicism, Christianity, etc. are RELIGIONS.  So, just as you can have a
British Catholic, you can have an American Jew(ess).  You can't really ask
someone "Are you a Brazilian or a Jew?", because they're Jewish and happen
to live in Brazil - they are BOTH Brazilian AND Jewish.  I would never deny
that I am Jewish, in the same way that I would never deny that I am British.
If you we're to ask "If it came to the crunch, would you fight for England/
America/Brazil/... or Israel?", well, that's a different matter!  THAT's
where the difference comes.

Susan.

I got married in Virginia, but I am from Boston. When I went to the Rabbi
in Va, he asked me if I was Jewish. He knew my wife's family but he didn't
know me. Well, that really shook me up. I grew up orthodox and din't have
any of the certificates they give out at conservative shuls. No circumcision
certificate, pidyon ha-ben receipt, no Chader diploma, no nothing. Fortunately
he took my word for it. On the other hand I can prove I am an American. Now
I can prove I am Jewish too. I do have a Ketuba from a Rabbi with a Yeshiva
smicha. (I love using all these hebrew and Yiddish words!!)

There is an old Bnai Brith discussion guide on this subject.I think it
sets up a discussion about who is the best Jew. A frum man, A man who raises
a lot of money for UJA, A man who hasn't been in Shul for years but fought
in the Haganah are the choices. 

Jews were a nation apart until Napolean. In most european countries they
couldn't become citizens, had to live in a special place, and in general
were not protected by citizenship. (They were allowed to pay taxes and fight
in the army though)

Napolean offered the Liberty, Fraternity, etc. There was a lot of discussion
about whether the Jews should accept citizenship. Many voted "NO" because
of issues simmiliar to the "Would you fight for the US or ISRAEL?" issue.
They didn't want to put themselves into a serve two masters situation. Well
they finally decided the protection of France was pretty comforting so they
accepted citizenship.

That was the end of Orthodoxy in the true meaning.
/joel

    Re: .2
    
    Is an apple red or sweet?
    

    	People born in the Soviet Union of Jewish parents have their
    internal passport and papers stamped: Nationality Jewish.
    	
    	People born in the Soviet Union of Christian parents have their
    internal passports and papers stamped: Nationality Union of Soviet
    Scocialist Republic.
    

    re:-.1,
    minor quibble/question:
    Isn't the nationality "Russian" rather than "USSR"?  Big difference:
    only 49% or so of the people in the USSR are ethnic Russians.  There
    are Georgians, Lithuanians, Ukranians, etc.  By this standard, Jews
    are just one other minority within the empire of the USSR.

    To maintain that fiction, there is even a "Jewish Autonomous Region"
    in a remote part of Siberia.  I once read an article by a journalist
    who tried to get there, but was not allowed to do so.

    		-John Bishop

    Re. 13
    
    It's probably a "gulag". Where else would they put the Siberian
    Jews?
        
    			Fred
    

    The "autonomous region" in Siberia is called Birobidjan.  (Don't
    quibble about spelling, please!  Just doing it from sound.)  It's
    a swampy outback near the border of Mongolia or China.  Stalin
    set it up as his answer to Zionism!  I don't think too many people
    actually live there, though, and I also doubt there's too much Jewish
    about it.  Not many took him up on the offer -- at least not
    voluntarily!

    Let me bring some clarification to this, since I have a first hand
    experience.  What in the Soviet Union is called "nationality" is
    actually "ethnic origin".  This is what the internal passport states.
    This "nationality" as assigned by the parents' origin.  If they
    are Jews, the child is also Jewish.  If the parents are of different
    origins, they can choose.  Since the Jews realize all the disadvantages
    of being Jewish in the USSR, in cases of "mixed" marriages the parents
    prefer to choose any non-Jewish nationality.  This is by the way
    one of the reason why Jewish population in the USSR declined from
    2.2 millions in 1970 to 1.7 millions in 1979.

    The previous note correctly stated the reason for creation of so-called
    Jewish Autonomous Region with a local capital of Birobidjan (Fred,
    it's almost incredible that an American DID spell it right!).  The
    Jews were not forced to go there, but if they refused, they could
    say good-bye to their jobs, or at least careers.  Here in the US
    I read many articles that shortly before his death Stalin wanted
    to deport all Jews there and the preparations had already begun.
    Only his death prevented this.
    
    Now, according to the latest census in 1979, only 15% of population
    in Jewish Region are Jewish.  The rest left the area as soon as
    they could in early '50's.  However the authorities keep it that
    way so that they can always reply to any accusation of mistreatment
    of Jews in the country that the Jews in the USSR have their autonomy,
    that they learn their language (I could never verify that), that
    they have their own Yiddish theater.  The latter is true, I even
    have a record of one of their performances made after a Sholom 
    Aleichom(sp?) story, but this theater never stays in Birobidjan, 
    they are always on the road.
    
    I remember that when I was leaving "Mother Russia" for good, there
    were many rumors among Moscow Jews that it was not totally impossible
    that they all would soon have to choose between going either West
    (to Israel) or East (Birobidjan).

"Confusion" about what a Jew is is a very mild way of putting it.

For this -- in American eyes at least -- I will probably make myself
as unpopular as Tarik from Reading (see note 69.0(?)), but here goes... 

For me, being Jewish (which I am) has NOTHING to do with being
religious (which I am not).  Nor am I alone, at least in continental
Europe.  Of course, since the war (which most of you call the
Holocaust), it's not so easy to decide about Jews in continental
Europe, since there are comparatively few of us left.  Still, it's
been pretty clear for Central/Eastern European Ashkenazi since many
decades before the war.  The majority of Jews outside Russia and
Poland, and significant minorities there, have been assimilated since
early this century.  The key word is "assimilated", and it makes all
the difference. 

For an assimilated Jew, "Are you Brazilian, or Jewish?" really is like
"Is this apple big, or red?".  You can't sensibly ask me if I am Jewish
or Hungarian: not only am I both, but I am also an atheist and was
baptized a Reformed Protestant.  So it not only ain't a nationality,
it ain't a religion either.  (Work that one out!) 

"Assimilated" is a dirty word to some, and to others it means 
the same as no longer being a Jew.  Clearly, I mean neither of these 
things, but a description of Jews who speak, live, work, dress and 
behave as other inhabitants of their countries do.  They are no less 
Jews for that -- they have made some NON-Jewish choices differently 
from others, that's all.

If it ain't this, and it ain't that, what IS it to be a Jew?  Well,
for me it's a particular tradition (an intellectual one), a set of
social and emotional attitudes -- which you learn from your family and
their friends -- and even a personality type which falls within a
certain range.  And, as it happens, this range includes only the
tiniest minority of American Jews I have met -- so obviously it
depends very much on the history of the particular group of Jews you
come from.  To my eyes, practically all American Jews resemble non-
Jewish Americans a thousand times more closely than they resemble 
Central European Jews.  (Surprised, anyone?)

Gabriel.

P.S.  When I'm feeling particularly unwilling to be pigeonholed (and 
      this is one such time), I admit or boast that I'm Hungarian-
      born, of British nationality, an adoptive Swiss, with an 
      American wife and six years spent in the U.S., and currently 
      living in West Germany.  I suppose the only "constant" is that 
      I'm Jewish.

    Gabriel is that what happenes to you when they send you to Germany
    for an extended period of time?
            see_u_next_time_on_the_friday_flight_to_Geneva