Conference taveng::bagels

    The answer lies in a number of places.
    
    1.  Flour is considered to be able to leaven if exposed to moisture for
    a given period of time (18 Minutes I believe) so unless it is carefully
    guarded it could be contaminated and therefore be levaned and Chometz.
    
    2.  Certain bens are also considered to have the posibility of
    leavening and therfore are forbidden.  Hence you can eat French-style
    green beans since the bean hasn't matured but not regular string beans.
    
    3.  Bread can be made from flours other then wheat flour so if your
    ancestors made bread from these grains then you can eat them.  
    
    4.  Matzo meal is unleavened what that has been baked and can no longer
    become leavened.  It is used as a substitute for flour but only in
    certain recepies.

>    3.  Bread can be made from flours other then wheat flour so if your
>    ancestors made bread from these grains then you can eat them.  
                                                     ^^^^^^^
   I think that you meant canNOT eat them.    

>    4.  Matzo meal is unleavened what that has been baked and can no longer
>    become leavened.  

   Matzo meal is simply ground up matzo.

.1 and .2 gave good answers as to what but not much on why.

Kitniyot (foods that are not really chometz but are prohibited during passover)
fall into 2 types.

1. Leavened grains other than the biblical 5 grains
2. Legumes

Both of these are prohibited only for Ashkenazim (Jews of Central and Eastern
European descent).  This prohibition was never accepted by Sephardic rabbis
and is therefore not binding for Sephardim.  The prohibition comes from the
fact that many legumes and all of the other grains (corn, rice...) can be used
to make breads which might be difficult to distinguish from prohibited breads.
Rather than accidently violate the mitzvah against possessing or consuming
chometz these vegetables are prohibited.

Tbe question of cereal or other use of flour directly is a little more complex.
Chometz is defined as any of the 5 grains which were exposed to liquids for
more than 18 minutes before being completely cooked.  In theory one could make
matzah from flour all during Pesach.  However, you would run I high risk of
contaminating your kitchen with flour which becomes wet and therefore chometz
while in the process.  Cereals, while not explictly leavened fall into the
category of having flour be wet (potentially) for more than the 18 minutes
and are therefore prohibited.

Once the flour has been cooked into matzah it can not become chometz.  Therefore
ground up matzah (matzah meal) can be used in some recipes which normally call
for flour.

Chag Kosher v'Sameach,
Gavriel

To add a couple of things to what Gavriel covered:

1.  Among Ashkenazim, *all* legumes are forbidden.  This includes green beans,
    no matter how immature they are.  It also includes peanuts.

2.  Many people, particularly (but not exclusively) Chassidim, do not eat
    "gebrokts," matzah that has been exposed to moisture because they fear
    that it *can* become chometz.  Hence, they don't eat kneidlach or
    matzah brei.  I believe that everybody does eat gebrokts on the 8th day.

3.  Everybody eats potatoes, even though potato flour is very flour-like.

4.  Some seeds that are unlikely to be used for bread are considered
    kitniyos, and thus avoided by Ashkenazim.  Among these are mustard
    (considered kitniyos by all) and cottonseed (considered kitniyos by some).

  Well thank you all for your inputs...however I can see from the responses that
the interpretations vary amongst different groups within the Jewish religion.  I
know that the Ortodox Jews in my town eat beans rice etc.....ho hum....
I have such an uneasy feeling about all of this, for years I have followed the 
ways of my parents and family as to what and what is not accepted...I'm not sure
if I know how to probably respect this holiday for my own life.  I've been 
brought up in a conservative jewish manner and on one hand, certain traditions 
have been ingrained in me and they would be hard to break but I am not 
comfortable with where to draw the line anymore.

 Any more thoughts on the subject of Passover are appreciated.  It's great to 
beable to ask these sort of questions and get so many good answers.


 Thanks again,
Nancy 

If the orthodox Jews in your town eat beans and rice on Passover, they must
be Sephardim.  You don't live in Deal, NJ do you?

    Can you eat vinegar?
    
    Thanks
    L

Pesadik vinegar can be made from wine or fruit juices.  We don't bother during
Pesach so I don't really know if there are any available.  Grain vineger (which
is the majority of vinegar used in commercial products) is obviously prohibited.

Gavriel

    Vinegar is available for Pesach.
    
    				Paul
    

    There is Law, and there is Custom, and there is custom.
    
    The Talmud specifically allows rice, etc., and apparently in that era
    the definition of chometz was a lot looser than 18 minutes (bread took
    longer to rise?).  It is against talmudic "Law" to eat chometz (the
    five grains, leavened) during Pesach, period.
    
    Beyond the Law, there is Custom (minhag), which is what your community
    treats as Law but isn't really except for the law to live up to
    customs...  Kitniot is ill-defined and basically consists (imho) of a
    lot of chumrot that over the years became customary in Poland and
    thereabouts.  Thus Ashkenazim (Orthodox and most Conservative) don't
    eat rice, dried beans, peas, corn, etc., even though corn wasn't seen
    by a Jew until _years_ after "kitniot" were defined!  (Like potatoes,
    it's New World.)  This isn't consistent, it's just custom (small c);
    the definition of kitniot is NOT formal.  
    
    This is discussed in the Halachic Newsletter topic (reposted within the
    week), from the Orthodox perspective.  Basically, if it isn't chometz,
    do what you feel good doing, and don't feel guilty.  (I grew up not
    knowing much about it, but I ate rice for breakfast yesterday, and eats
    peas, beans, etc.  Your mileage may vary.  My personal opinion on
    "rabbinic law", however, is probably lower than yours.)
         fred

    Bopth apple cider vinegar and wine vinegar are available for Pesach. 
    Some people traditionally use vinegar instead of salt water during the
    seder.

>    Some people traditionally use .................... salt water during the
>    seder.

     In our family we only use salt water. According to our apikorsisher
     explanation, matzoh are "zecher l'yetziat Mitzrayim", to remember the
     Exodus from Egypt, while boiled eggs in salt water are zecher ... to 
     the crossing of the Red Sea...

Juan-Carlos 

    -.4 You said that the Askenazim don't eat peanuts but it is not true:
    only some people does have this minhag. The majority does eat peanuts.
    
    Just  for curiosity, some poskim also tried to forbidden potatoes but
    these opinions were completly rejected.
    
    -.12 No, Juan: the reason to eat boiled eggs before the meal during
    the Sedder is "zecher lamikdach": 9 Beav will be on the same day of the
    week as Pessah. Nothing to do with the crossing of the red sea: it was
    only on the 7th day that our fathers did cross the red sea.
    
    Now, about the rice. To be precise, there is one opinion in the
    Tractate of Pessahim which considers the rice as "hametz" but this
    opinion was not accepted by the majority of the rabbis. The minhag of
    not eating rice among the ashkenazim is from the middle-age (it is
    mentionned in the minhagim of the Maharil) but it seems to be
    more ancient and probably from the Geonim period. There are some
    differences about this minhag between the ashkenazim from Frankfurt
    (Germany, Alsace) and the ashkenazim from Eastern Europe. The first one
    don't eat kitniot but are eating the product derived from it: for
    example, oil. The important fact is that it is forbidden to say that
    from the Torah, rice or kitniot are forbidden: it is only forbidden
    by the minhag: therefore in some cases (pikuah nefesh for example) , 
    there can be a way in the Halacha to allow someone to eat rice or kitniot. 
      

Haim,

I believe that Juan (.12) was making a joke ..... and not to be taken
seriously :-) 

When it come to making the "Hillel sandwich", my father-in-law ALWAYS says,
that we are very lucky that Hillel didn't tell us to eat ground-up glass !!!
			

								.... Monty

    Monty, you got it! JCK

re .13:

    There may be some Ashkenazim who don't consider peanuts kitniyot,
    but I don't think you can correctly say that the majority don't.
    Peanut oil, on the other hand, used to be *the* Kosher L'Pesach oil
    in the U.S., but cottonseed oil is more widely used now.  There are
    some who consider even cottonseed oil kitniyot, and use only olive oil
    or grapeseed oil.

    Strictly speaking, the majority of Ashkenazim eat chametz on Pesach,
    so kal v'chomer, they eat peanuts.

    re .16:
    
    In any case, even for those who don't eat peanuts, peanuts are not
    considered as kitniyot. It is not the only case of this nature:
    ashkenazim don't eat mustard and it is not hametz nor kitniot. Same
    thing with peanuts: look at the paragraph in the Shulhan Harouh about
    mustard and the comments of the Mishna Brura. 
    
    Majority of Ashkenazim are eating peanuts and for example, in Israel,
    the Beth-Din of the Heda Haharadit (aka Badaz) is approving it.
    

>    Majority of Ashkenazim are eating peanuts and for example, in Israel,
>    the Beth-Din of the Heda Haharadit (aka Badaz) is approving it.

I would be interestd in seeing the source for this.  From my 
experience, I would be very surprised if this is correct.

    I only have a condensed translation of the Shulhan Aruch at home, and
    now you have aroused my curiosity: what is the reason behind not eating
    mustard on Pesach?  I like mustard, especially coarse-ground mustard
    (not the yellow hot-dog stuff!); it's delicious rubbed on fish before
    grilling.  But I have never eaten any during Pesach because I have
    never found any marked Pesachdic, but now I can't imagine why that
    would be.  As a seed, it isn't any more grain-like than, say, sesame
    seeds, which are OK.
    
    /Charlotte

    According to Rabbi Blumenkrantz's book, mustard grows like kitniot.
    Someone I know who has grown mustard says that it grows like grain.
    In any case, the lack of mustard is what makes Pesach mayonnaise
    taste funny.

There's a detailed discussion of kitniyot in 75.158.