Conference taveng::bagels

	      ABRAM/ABRAHAM, SARAI/SARAH, HAGAR and KETURAH, 


NAME:		STRONG'S #	MEANING(S)
--------------- ---------	-----------------------------------

Abram		87		High Father
		48		father of height
		1		Father (literal, immediate, or remote)
		7311		To be high, to rise or raise up

Abraham		85		Father of Multitude

Sarai		8297		Dominative
		8269		Head person, ruler, steward
		8323		to have/get dominion

Sarah		8283		Abraham's wife
		8282		feminine of 8269 - Mistress, i.e,
				  female Noble, Lady, Princess, Queen

Hagar		1904		meaning uncertain according to Strong

Keturah		6989		feminine pass. part. of 6999; perfumed,
		6999		to smoke, i.e., turn into fragrance by
				   fire, esp. as act of worship, burn
			           [incense, sacrifice]
		7000		to in-close, join

My only questions at this point are:

	1.  HAGAR - does anyone know the meaning of this name?
	2.  KETURAH - I found it interesting to read Strong's definitions 
	    of her name, especially when looking at her son Zimran.  What
	    significance does either/both the Torah and Talmud place on
	    her (if any) and what nation does Keturah represent?

		       THE FIRSTBORN SONS


NOTE:   I am making the assumption (I hope not incorrectly) that Isaac, 
Ishmael, and Zimran all qualify as Firstborn since no other sons are listed 
before these from Sarah, Hagar, and Keturah (though their common father is 
Abram/Abraham).  If that's incorrect, please help me understand...


NAME:		STRONG'S #	MEANING(S)
--------------- ---------	-----------------------------------

Isaac		3327		Laughter
(of Abraham	6711		to laugh in merriment or scorn
 & Sarah)


Ishmael		3458		G-d will hear
(of Abram	8085		to hear
 & Hagar)	410		stregth/mighty, esp. G-d Almighty


Zimran		2175		Musical
(of Abraham	2167		Celebrate in song and music
 & Keturah)



The questions here begin to get numerous and complex to say the least.  

I want to say at the outset that I'm not interested in igniting any holy 
wars and I'm not insensetive to the seriousness of these questions!  My 
only hope is to understand what G-d's word, the Bible has to say about the 
people *I* personally feel are my ancestors (namely, Abraham, Isaac, and 
Jacob).  In trying to understand this ancestry better, I have to understand 
(or at least want to understand) the significance of Abram/Abraham's other 
children by Hagar and Keturah.

That said...

I understand (at this point in my study) what is to take place with Isaac's
sons Esau and Jacob - how Jacob will become Israel - how the 12 tribes of
Israel come about (I start to get foggy on how the birthright passed on
down the line and I'm not sure what happened with Dan....I've also got some
questions on Joseph's sons Ephraim and Manasseh, but I'm getting way ahead
of myself).  So for now, I'll skip Isaac (but would love to get into more
detail on him later...).  I may in fact start another topic on the 12 
Tribes of Israel later on as I continue to study this.

ISHMAEL (G-d will hear).  Some interesting promises are made to Hagar about
Ishmael.  When asked where she is going to, Hagar says she's running away 
from her "mistress" Sarah (and according to Strong, this usage refers to a 
female ruler, princess, queen...).  She's told to go back and submit to 
Sarah.  Who exactly is Ishmael, and is he the beginning of the Arab nations?
G-d did promise to bless him and make his decendants numerous.

Again, the questions get complex.  What exactly is "Arab"?

How do the words "Arab", "Moslem", and "Islam" relate, or do they relate at 
all?

If Ishmael is not the father of the Arab nations, who is he and what 
nations do his 12 sons represent?

ZIMRAN (Musical).  Being a musician myself, I found Zimran to be 
interesting!  ;-)

But not much at all is said of him, in fact, his name is mentioned only 
twice in the Bible.  Also, there is no lineage listed for him.  Instead, I 
read of Abraham's sons (by Keturah) and of them, only Zimran (her 
firstborn) and Shuah (her youngest) have "positive" names.  Their other 4 
brothers have terrible, doom-filled names.

Who is Zimran and what nation(s) does he represent?

My understanding may be way off, but I think it looks like this...

Isaac is the line through which the reckoning is promised.  Through him 
comes Jacob/Israel - G-d's chosen people.

Ishmael seems to be the father of another religion (the Moslems?).  Please 
help me out here, I'm kind of foggy and not sure if I'm even using the 
correct terms.

This leads me to assume (again, I could be wrong) that:

	- since Isaac brings forth Jacob (Israel) - a major world religion 
	  (well, really, G-d's chosen people), and 

	- Ishmael brings forth Nebaioth (a religion?), then 

	- Zimran might also be the father of some world religion, but I 
	  can't find a line from him.  

		the Sons of ISAAC [laughter]

Isaac is Sarah's firstborn son, son of Abraham


NAME:		STRONG'S #	MEANING(S)
--------------- ---------	-----------------------------------

ESAU		6215		rough (hairy?)

   - Eliphaz	464		god of gold (purity?)
   |	        410/6337	strength/pure [as gold]
   |		6338		to refine
   |
   | Reuel	7467		Friend of G-d
   | Jeush      3266		hasty
   | Jalam	3281/5956	occult/hide, veil from sight
   - Korah	7141/7139	Ice/Depilate - make bald

JACOB/		3290		heel catcher - supplanter
ISRAEL		3478		G-d Prevails
		8240/410	prevail, G-d Almighty

   - Reuben	7205/7200/1121	See a (firstborn) Son
   | Simeon	8095/8085	Hearing
   | Levi	3878/3867	Attached/to unite to remain
   | Judah      3063/3027	Celebrated - open hand - power
   | Issachar	3485/5375/7939	He will bring a reward (payment/contract)
   | Zebulon	2074/2082	Habitation/to reside with
   | Dan	1835/1777	Judge/to rule - at strife
   | Joseph	3130		Let him add
   | Benjamin	1144		Son of the right hand
   | Naphtali	5321/6617	My wrestling/to struggle
   | Gad	1410/1464	To crowd upon, attack, invade
   - Ahser	838/833		Happy - to go straight

Somehow, Manasseh and Ephraim, Jacob's grandsons by Joseph, seem to become 
important...I'm foggy on why and need to study this more, but here are the 
meanings I found...

     Manasseh	4519		Causing to forget
     Ephraim	669/672/6509	Double/Multiple fruit


OK, again, I understand how Jacob "supplanted" Esau (since Esau sold his 
birthright for a meal) and how Jacob recieved the rights of the firstborn 
son.  Wasn't Sarah told that there were two nations in her womb and that 
the older would serve the younger?

So Jacob becomes Israel - what happened to Esau?  What nation(s) does he 
represent?

What about Manasseh and Ephraim?

What happens to Dan?

I should say that I'm not too sure *all* of this is covered in the Bible.  
If it is, it is over a multitude of pages.  As I said earlier, I did a 
*short* study on this and have come up with a ton of questions.  Any 
pointers are welcome...

	        the sons of ISHMAEL (G-d will hear)

Ishmael is Hagar's firstborn son, the son of Abram...



NAME:		STRONG'S #	MEANING(S)
--------------- ---------	-----------------------------------

- Nebaioth	5032/5107	Fruitfulness/to germinate/flourish
| Kedar		6938/6937	Dusky, dark (skin a/o clothes), mourn
| Adbeel	110/109		Disciplined/Chastized of G-d - to grieve
| Mibsam	4017/1314	Fragrant/spice
| Mishma	4927/4926/8085	Report - to hear
| Duma		1746/1745/1820	To be dumb, silent, to fail - perish
| Massa		4854/4853/5375	Burden, utterance of doom, sing(?)
| Hadad		1908/111	(see ADBEEL above)
| Tema		8485		? not sure....  south perhaps?
| Jetur		3195, 2905	Encircled - row/wall
| Naphish	5305/5314	Refreshed, to breathe, to be breathed upon
- Kedemah	6929		Precedence, preceed, anticipate

Again, I'm not sure, but I think these are the Arab nations.  If not, who 
are they?

Also, I'm not entirely sure I know the correct meanings of the words 
"Arab", "Moslem", and "Islam".  I hate to be this ignorant, but then again, 
if you never ask, you'll never know ;-)

How do (don't) these 3 words relate?  What do they mean?

	        	ZIMRAN (Musical)


Again, I didn't find a lineage after Zimran who is Keturah's firstborn son, 
son of Abraham.  What I did find in the Bible was the listing of 6 sons of 
Abraham and Keturah:


NAME:		STRONG'S #	MEANING(S)
--------------- ---------	-----------------------------------

ZIMRAN		2175/2167	Musical, play music accompanied by
(Keturah's			  voice, celebrate in songs and music,
 firstborn)			  give forth praise & songs, sing
				  praises and psalms

   [I like Zimran's name ;-)

his brothers:

Jokshan		3370/3369	indisious, to ensnare, fowler
Medan		4091/4090/4066/4079  Discord, strife, quarrel, brawling
Midian		4080/4079/4066	Brawling
Ishbak		3435/7662/7733	He will leave, quit, leave, forsake
Shuah		7744/7743	To bow down, humble

Zimran's brothers (well, except for Shuah....nothing wrong with being 
humble ;-) have pretty nasty names!

What nations do they represent?  What is Zimran's lineage?  Did he ever 
have children?

What of his 5 brothers?  Where did they end up?

    "Arab": an ethnic group.  In the Classical era limited to the
    Arabic-speaking inhabitants of the Arabian Peninsula.  Since
    the successful expansion of Islam and the Arabic language it is
    often applied to people of other ethnicities who are Arabic-speaking
    Moslems (e.g. people whose ancestors were Hamites and Berbers).
    
    "Islam": the religion founded by Muhammed.  The first or second most
    widely-spread belief system on the planet, depending on who's counting.
    
    "Moslem": one who believes in Islam.  Many Moslems are not Arabs
    (perhaps most are not).  A few Arabs are not Moslems, but Christians,
    Jews, and so on.
    
    			-John Bishop

    ...i {blush} guess I {blush} overlooked the ol' Dictionary route!
    
    		:8-}
    
    Thanks, John.
    
    And now, back to the myriad of other questions (not answerable in a
    dictionary ;-)
    
    Steve

The story of the children of Jacob is not necessarily about historical
individuals. The tribe of Joseph split into two tribes, Manasseh and Ephraim,
by the time they settled in the Promised Land. Dan was a vassal tribe of
Ephraim (according to Graetz) and was given an insecure territory in which
to settle.

Dave

Re: .1

>	1.  HAGAR - does anyone know the meaning of this name?

"Stranger."

>	2.  KETURAH - I found it interesting to read Strong's definitions 
>	    of her name, especially when looking at her son Zimran.  What
>	    significance does either/both the Torah and Talmud place on
>	    her (if any) and what nation does Keturah represent?

According to the Midrash (Bereshit Rabba 61:4, quoted by Rashi) this was 
another name for Hagar, and she was so called because "exuded the fragrance
of the precepts and good deeds." Other sources identify her indeed as a
third wife. 

Re: .2

> Who exactly is Ishmael, and is he the beginning of the Arab nations?

He is generally recognized as the ancestor of the Arabs by both Arabs
and Jews. (He is also claimed as the founder of Islam by the Muslims,
I believe, but I'm not sure how that works exactly.)

>Who is Zimran and what nation(s) does he represent?

As you say, he is not an important figure in the Bible, nor the founder
of any known nation.

>	- Zimran might also be the father of some world religion, but I 
>	  can't find a line from him.  

I understand your logic, but it appears not to be so. If Ketura was just
another name for Hagar, your question doesn't really start, I guess.

> So Jacob becomes Israel - what happened to Esau?  What nation(s) does he 
>represent?

"These are the chronicles of Esau *the ancestor of Edom* ..." (Gen. 36:9).
Edom is associated with Rome in Jewish tradition (See Rashi Gen. 36:43).

Hope this helps, Steve.

Jem

    re: .9
    
    Thanks, Jem...
    
    Yes, that's quite helpful!
    
    A few more questions though (natch ;-)
    
    Do you personally agree with the teaching that Keturah is another name
    for Hagar or do you believe she is a different woman entirely?
    
    In the final analysis, whether or not she is another woman, I would
    have to agree with you that my "theory" of her being the "mother" of a
    different major world religion is a tad flawed ;-)  There is little
    importance placed on her in Genesis, and no lineage given for her
    firstborn.  I continue to be fascinated however, at the number of
    Abram/Abraham's decendants and still wonder about this "3rd line".
    
    Next, I found as I continued through Genesis that Esau married (among
    other women) 2 of Ishamel's daughters.  Does this have some effect on
    Edom and can you share more information on how Edom represents Rome?
    
    Finally, when you say "Rome", are you talking strictly about the land?
    
    Thanks again.  I'll try not to have so many after-questions if you
    respond to the other replies...I just can't help it sometimes ;-), I
    find this line of study incredibly fascinating, important, and
    fulfilling!
    
    Shalom,
    
    Steve

Re: .10

>    Do you personally agree with the teaching that Keturah is another name
>    for Hagar or do you believe she is a different woman entirely?

Actually, both opinions appear in the Midrash. Those who argue with Rashi
include the great exegetes Nachmanides, Ibn Ezra and Rashbam. Who's right?
Take your pick. 

>    Next, I found as I continued through Genesis that Esau married (among
>    other women) 2 of Ishamel's daughters.  Does this have some effect on
>    Edom and can you share more information on how Edom represents Rome?

I'm not sure what "effect" you mean. As far as Edom, the Rashi cited ident-
ifies the Esauian tribe of Magdiel as the one that founded Rome. Others
attribute the establishment of Rome to Esau's grandson (Eliphas' son),
Zefo. Edom is the term used in Rabbinic literature for Rome.

>    Finally, when you say "Rome", are you talking strictly about the land?

It is used to refer both to the Roman Empire and European culture generally.

> I
>    find this line of study incredibly fascinating, important, and
>    fulfilling!

I find your fascination fascinating. Most Jews seem slightly less so,
judging from the ZZZs to be heard when these Torah portions are read
in the synagogue.

Jem

I have been told by a former Islamic co-worker that the Koran retells
several storys from the Torah, but with a twist. Thus, in the story of
Abraham's sacrifice of Isaac, the version in the Koran makes it the
sacrifice of Ishmael.

In Graetz's "Popular History of the Jews", he seems to equate the Edomites
with the Idumeans. His comment concerning the conquerring and forced
conversion of the Idumeans was that the family of Jacob was made whole
again with the elder serving the younger (a reference to Genesis). Is Esau
believed to be founder of both Rome and Idumea?

Dave