Conference tallis::celt

    I wonder if there has been some unpublicized initiative or agreement
    between the Dublin and London governments about N.I. that has given
    rise to these monumentous actions.
    
    Somehow, though, I can't imagine the Loyalist population (politicians)
    being overjoyed at not having their own private army on the streets
    anymore ;-).
    
    I also think that it would be very naive of anyone to think that the
    paramilitaries will suddenly say, "there's a good idea, why didn't we
    think of that?" and stop their respective campaigns of violence.
    
    It's still a good idea, keep up the good work Pat.
    
    Mike.

    Well, another step in the right direction.  I applaud Britain's
    initiative.  Removing the British army from patroling Irish 
    streets will lessen the tension and violence.  I sense that
    this will put a great deal of pressure on the RUC to reform
    both its methods of policing and also its internal makeup.
    I.e. how are the RUC going to patrol Nationalist areas without
    British army backups?  Am I missing something here?
    
    Would the next logical step be to setup a non-sectarian local
    police force?
    
    Either we are witnessing a massive political ploy before the
    Christmas holidays or the British have announced phase one of
    their withdrawal from Ireland.  Can it be?
    
    Wouldn't it be nice if the IRA threw a trump card and announced
    some sort of ceasefire?
    
    /George

    re.0
    >Patrick Mayhew has pledged that "Troops will be pulled off the streets
    >of Ulster if the outlawed organisation abandons its terror campaign".
                                           ^
                                           |
    I'm sure you meant to put an 's' in there or was SIR Patrick thinking
    of outlawing the BA because of it's terror campaign against the Irish
    people :-)
    
    
    
    More seriously, does this mean that the British Army will be going home
    or just getting off the streets and back to the barracks for a rest.The
    IRA has said in the past that it will cease it's armed struggle if the
    British Army withdrew from Ireland. Sir Pat should show us what a noble
    person he is and make the first move by pulling the troops out. The IRA
    would have to stop it's campaign then or loose all credibility with
    it's supporters.
    

    
    I quoted exactly as the paper quoted, no 's. I expect it is a moral
    stunt for the army and families. I am sure the soldiers want to be
    there as much as the Republicans want them to be there.
    
    The perfect Christmas;
    
    	The British Army, total pull out.
    	The NI sec. hands over to an Irishman.
    	All paramilitary organisations hold cease fire.
    	Representatives from all sides hold talks.
    	A solution adreeable to all sides is found.
    	
    
    Happy Christmas.
    
    Simon

    Hi Simon mate, have you been partaking of too much Christmas cheer or
    have you just had an optimism overdose ?

    Not related to this particular note:
    
    I win 20 or 30 thousand pounds in a lottery,   :-)
    my brother goes back to his wife and kids,
    my landrover passes its MOT
    my cat stops peeing in my shoes or sports bag when I am not looking :-{
    
    In short if you don't try and laugh you would cry.
    
    May be I have had an optimism overdose, I certainly can't afford too
    much Christmas cheer (spirit at the moment).
    
    If we all try and inject some happiness into the world maybe it
    will become a better place.
    
    Simon
    
    

    Happy Christmas Simon, you deserve it !
    
    Goodnight (it's 02:00 here)
    

    Heard on the news the other day that Sir Patrick Mayhew asked
    Ireland to review articles 2 and 3.  How about the British
    reviewing and renouncing *their* claim of Northern Ireland?
    Am I missing something here?
                                                              
    /George

er...yes, you are missing something. I think it's called a referendum and it's to
do with democracy I think.

On a similiar vein, demographic trends in NI seem to point to a Catholic majority
within the next 25 years or so. So perhaps a similiar referendum in the future
will come up with a different result. Democracy in motion? I love it.


MR

 Re .9

 Ah yes "democracy". If catholics/nationalists do become a majority, I'll
 bet the same "democracy" that applied in 1920 will apply then. That is,
 draw another line across the map to give an area with a protestant/unionist
 majority. 

 Ah yes "democracy".

Denis,

I sincerely hope that at the mistakes of the past are not repeated. You may not
like it (I certainly don't but it's none of my business really) but the fact
still remains that the majority of people in Ulster want to be part of the UK as
opposed to part of Ireland (at the last count anyway). 

My reaction to .8 was due to the my interpretation of it. As far as I can see,
Britain withdrawing it's claim to NI would be irrelevant anyway. What has to 
change is the attitude of the people (which may never change) or a simple change
in demographics (which IS changing).

Here's to a peaceful future.


Mark

 Mark,

    You are correct in some of what you say. I was just pointing out that 
    democracy as opposed to "democracy", did not exist in 1920 and will not 
    exist should catholics/nationalists become a majority in the six
    counties. People seem to think that it will but the British government 
    will do whatever the unionists want them to. 
    
    It will not simply be a case of the wishes of the majority, it will be a 
    case of the wishes of the unionists - again.
    

            Plea from the north

I, as a Northern Nationalist, call on the Irish Government
not to sell us out by promising the British and the Unionists
an amendment or deletion of Articles 2 and 3 of the 
Constitution.  Such a change would have the effect, in Irish
and international law, of recognizing the validity of the 
British claim to "supreme" authority in a part of Ireland,
as expressed in Section 75 of the Government of Ireland Act.
It would take away from every person born in the Six Counties
the rights and privileges of Irish citizenship, such as the
right to stand for public office and to represent Ireland in
international sporting arenas, by removing from us forever
the Constitutional support on which our entitlement to an
Irish passport rests.

There should be no trade-off between Section 75 of the 
Government of Ireland Act and Articles 2 and 3, the former
of which is an imperialist claim, while the latter is a
statement of fact.  Articles 2 and 3 should not be up for
negotiation in any circumstances.  As you are well aware,
the problem was created, not by Articles 2 and 3, but by
the enforced undemocratic partition of our country.  I will
conclude by quoting Bernadette McAllisky, when on a recent
"Questions & Answers" program on RTE, she posed the
question that if Articles 2 and 3 were to be changed in
any way: "What would that leave me - a Palestinian?"

           -Ciaran F. Leonard, Irish Press, 10/1/92

    Ya know, the Brit government can try to hide the stench of its Brit
colonial crap in IRELAND all it wants, what with huge propaganda machines,
murder, assassinations, cover-ups, lies, Widgery Tribunal-type whitewashes,
and, literally, and "All-Ireland" Psyops program that has convinced more than 
a few southern Irish that they are not *worthy* or *capable* of governing and 
solving their own problems amongst themselves.

   But, at the end of the day, Brits are going to have to face the inevitable
reality of its government's insane policies in the north of IRELAND, especially
when it comes home to roost *economically.*
    
   The following article (next note) is appropriate for this topic,
(The Beginning of the End.) As fifth-rate "world" power, whose economic output
is less than many of it's former colonies, Britain continues to cling
deperately to the last vestiges of its once sadistic and satanic "empire"  in
Ireland.

   Fancy that, a whole race of people that just don't get it. How pathetic.  
    
   Just remember what Ghandi said about Britain's unwanted presence in his own
country: In the end, you WILL walk out.

                         IRA Winning The Economic War
                            by  Anne Cadwallader
                 The Sunday Press (northern edition)10/18/92

   What has the loss of 31,000 mining jobs  in Britain got to do with us? As it
was put rather smugly on BBC Radio Ulster this week, shouldn't we just heave
a grateful sigh that we have no coal mines here for the government to close
down? The answer to that is no. It has plenty to do with us. Plenty.  ...

   The savagery of the pit closures in Britain is awesome. The capacity of a
British government to sign a piece of paper condemning over 31,000 families to a
life of hardship is devastating.. Inevitably, suicides, broken marriages,
alcoholism, clinical depression, wasted lives, the agony of unemployment for so
many thousands awaits.

HUGE BRITISH SUBVENTION.
   The only reason this economy (NI) is on its feet at all, is because of huge
British subvention to local industry, security, and services (total last year:
#2 billion).

   The #1 billion the british government is making available for redundancies
and job generation in the stricken coalfields is half its annual subsidy to the
North.. Laying aside for a moment, the terrible human cost of the last 23 years,
consider what the British government spends here (in NI) barely keeping a lid
on the violence.

  - 11,000 British troops.
  - 8,250 regual officers in the Full Time Reserve, and 1,650 part-timers.
  - 4,000 members of the Territorial Army
  - 3,200 prison officers, and 340 support staff
  - 3,050 civilians employed backing up the uniformed security services

  Between its incpetion and the ending of the UDR, no fewer than 30,000 men and
women had joined its ranks.


SECURITY COSTS.
     Overall security costs are running at over #1 billion pounds a year.
About half that is spent on the RUC.  The British Army and Royal Irish
Regiment (formerly UDR) costs #200 million pounds a year.  In 1990, the British
Ministry of Defence spent #126 million pounds on tightening security at military
bases in Britain and Germany against IRA attacks.  Improving security at
police stations in the North in the last seven years has cost more than
#100 million pounds. Over the next three years, the British government plans
to spend a further #70 million pounds improving security at RUC stations.

  PRISONS AND COURTS.
   Now let's look at prisons.  Housing the North's prisoners last year cost
#122 million pounds. That's before you start looking at projected "improvements"
at both the Maze (Long Kesh) and Crumlin Roads. Then there's the court service,
forensic science costs, legal aid, judges' salaries, security for judges and so
on....

   Taking security overall, Britain spends #440 a head, for every man, woman,
and child in the North - more than three times what's spent across the water
(#145 a head in Britain itself).

COMPENSATION COSTS.
   And then there is the compensation costs of the war.  The IRA bombs at
Staples Corner and the Baltic Exchange in London are thought to have cost
#8 billion pounds.  Here in the North, there's the cost of, once again,
fixing Windsor House in Bedford Street, River House in High Street, and Grand
Opera House and so on. The IRA bombing of Belvoir Park Estate/Forensic Science
Lab alone is estimated at #20 million pounds.

THE QUID PRO QUO.
   And what does Britain get in return for all this cash?  From the
government's point of view it maintains its commitment to the unionists and is
relieved of the embarrassment of " giving in to terrorism".  But it is also
publicly humiliated internationally by the likes of Amnesty International and
the MacBride Principles Campaign in a world which sees the problem as
essentially colonial, and which forces it to spend many thousands of pounds on
a sophisticated propaganda machine in Europe and the US.

   And, the representatives of the British government are treated to diatribes
from politicians such as Willie McCrea of the DUP and the pleasure of the
company of Ian Paisley going on endlessly about Articles 2 and 3 of the Irish
Constitution at the Stormont talks.

   You could almost sympathize with the unemployed miners if they asked
themselves about the government's priorities. It doesn't really seem to be
terribly good value for the money does it?

    
    	i think i saw those VERY same notes somewhere else...
    
    	::DROTTER you weren't eastie baiting again, were you????

    Mark,
    
    First off, my thoughts are also for a peaceful future for Ireland,
    one without the British military and the IRA and other paramilitaries.
    
    I think it quite ironic however, when Patrick Mayhew starts asking
    Ireland to review articles 2 and 3, when it is Britain that has to
    review its own failed policy in the North.  Britain should be planning
    today for its withdrawal from Ireland, to let the Irish people live
    free under their own government.
                             
    As Denis says, what's going to happen to Northern Ireland in 20 years
    time?  Are the British going to slice of Derry or Armagh and give it
    to the Republic to maintain a majority like they did before?  It sounds
    like Bosnia.
    
    George

::DROTTER (Don't know your first name, sorry)

>>   Fancy that, a whole race of people that just don't get it. How pathetic.  

You're using stupid generalisations now, to which I take exception.  If I was to
enter a note saying that all Americans were racist, you'd (quite rightly) 
get a bit annoyed (and I'd have personnel coming down on me like a ton of bricks)
So DONT GENERALISE. That is part of the whole problem. 
 
What I'm telling you is that not ALL British are like-minded. Most of the ones I 
know (including myself) are frustrated that those involved don't realise that 
there has to be a bit of give-and-take.
Mark


 

    
    	you, ::RENNISON, haven't been around in ::CELT and WF much, have you?
    	

	

Usually just a read-only in ::CELT. I thought at first it was about my fave
football team :-)


Mark

    
    	no, you must mean BASKETball, ::RENNISON.
    
    	;-)

    Gee, you woudn't be talking of the Boston Celtics?
    Boston used to be a great sports city didn't it?  ;v)
    
    /g
    
    p.s. Denise, you're personal name reminds me of poems by
    e.e. cummings.  

er Glasgow Celtic Football Club (soccer in your language no doubt).
Established 1888 by....

OH NO - I'VE CREATED A RAT-HOLE   AAAGGGHHHHH !!!!



Mark

    
    	take it easy, ::RENNISON... 
    	you were bound to fall into the trap.
    	now that you've `wet your toes' it'll come 
    	easier now. it's the first time that's a shocker.
    	football...that's the silly little sport where you use
    	your head, innit??? strange.
    	
    
    	::DARCY...
    	you're very perceptive....he's one of my favourite poets!