Conference tallis::celt

    It's kind of like the Klu Klu Klan having their rally in the
    middle of Harlem.
    
    Seriously though, I'm not sure that these parades or any demonstration
    of free speech should be banned.  It unfortunate though that both the
    British and Irish governments selectively define free speech.
    The parades are allowed unfettered, while other groups such as Sinn
    Fein are denied media access.  I am a strong advocate of complete
    freedom of expression.
    
    George
    

    
     Well, so am I, George.  But in the States, parade or demonstration
    permits are routinely refused because of the potential for violence
    that exists.  Like your example of a KKK rally in Harlem, such a
    request would undoubtedly be refused precisely BECAUSE it would take
    place in an area where the threat of violence would be great.
    
     If the Unionists want there parades, then so be it.  But their
    purpose in marching through Catholic areas is apparently for the
    sole purpose of antagonizing the local population rather than just
    celebrating an historical event.
    
    Frank
     

All through my life nearly every Saturday during the summer I and a graet many 
people of all religions in the West of Scotland have had to suffer these blatant
displays of bigotary and hatred.
As a young boy I could never understand why my parents confined me to the 
immeadiate vicinity of my home on certain Saturdays during the month of July.
When I grew older and was confronted by the naked hatred of religious 
intolerance I understood and was saddened by these actions.
In the West of Scotland you very quickly begin to understand the concept of 
tribalism and the primitive emotions that it engenders. 
Why is this stupidity allowed to continue in this day and age ?
If these marches were aimed at any other section of the populace except 
Catholics they would be banned out of hand and the ring leaders and organisers
would be arrested .
The argument these peolpe use is that the marches,or as we call them The Walk,
are to commemorate a historical event that ensured the Protestant succession and 
the salvation of the Protestant religion in the U.K.They maintain that they are
not anti anything but pro monarchist and nationalist.
For anyone who has been caught in the middle of one of these things this is a 
barefaced lie.
From time to time in Scotland there have been moves to ban these marches in the 
interests of puplic order but these bans are never successful.
It says a lot for the Catholic population of Scotland that there has been very
few incidences of violent reactions to these walks.
To some one who is an amatuer historian it is amazing that these people still 
march on this occasion.
Why can't they expend there energies celebrating the important and more 
significant dates in Scottish history ?
My only hope,and I fear it is a forlorn hope, is that with time these displays 
of hatred will fade and die and the people of this country  will realise that 
irrespective of our religions we are all Scots and proud of it.


                                                                 Kenny.

    
    Hi Kenny,
    
     Thanks for your note.  
    
     I was taken by your observation that such marches take place in 
    Scotland as well as northern Ireland.  Of this I wasn't aware.
    What events in Scottish history do they commemorate?
    
     This is also quite dismaying to me, learning that such institution-
    alized prejudice exists outside of northern Ireland.  I guess it just
    shatters an image I had of Scotland as free of this kind of thing.
    
     Do you believe that it is just 'tribalism' or religion that feeds
    these fires?  It's a notion I've resisted for quite some time in
    discussions of the north of Ireland because in that context I've
    always seen the 'troubles' as primarily economic and political in
    nature rather than religious.  
    
     Tell me, is there alot of this anti-Catholic feeling in Scotland?
    If so, does it manifest itself in economic discrimination?
    
    Thanks again,
    
    Frank
    
    
         

Hi Frank,
          The Walk in Scotland is the same as the Orange Marches in N.I.
They commemorate the Battle of The Boyne in 1690 and the defence of 
Londonderry by the apprentice boys.
In Scotland ,and to a large extent in N.I. too,these events have little or 
nothing to do with religion,they are a form of tribalism pure and simple.
Many Church of Scotland Ministers and Elders condemn them just as much as most
Catholic Clergymen.
Unfortuneatly just as many Protestant Glergymen support them.
The West of Scotland has had a long and disturbing history of intolerance,our 
close proximity to Northen Ireland and the still existing family ties makes it
difficult for us to escape the insanity of the situation.
Remember that most of the people transplanted to N.I. were from non-conformist 
Lowland Scottish backgrounds.
Up until recently ,say the last 25 years,it had been uncomfortable being a 
Catholic in the West of Scotland. 
Religious discrimination was blatant and all encompassing.
There were certain companies that refused to employ Catholics,certain clubs 
Catholics could never join and certain proffessions that were closed to 
Catholics.
It was said that in my parents day.immeadiately post WW2,a catholic boy had 
three choices of  proffession,priest,school teacher in a Catholic school or 
miner.
The 1970's saw a decrease in this discrimination and things are much better but
the spectre is still there and it can crop up in the most unexpected places and
at the most unexpected time.
I recently read a book about why the West of Scotland never slipped into the 
sectarian blood letting that occured in Ireland.I will send you the name and 
ISBN of it if you are interested.


                                       Regards

                                        Kenny.

    Kenny, two questions - what is the population percentages of Catholics
    versus Protestants in Scotland?  Second, is it a fair assumption that
    most of the Scottish people who emmigrated to the US were Catholics?
    Or did many convert to Catholicism after reaching here?  The reason I
    ask is that more Scottish people around greater Boston seem to be
    Catholics rather than Protestants.
    
    -George

    
    One can contend that alot of the "Scottish" Catholics were descended
    from Irish who emigrated around the famine times. Those that had money
    went directly to America. Those that had none became miners and mill
    workers in Scotland until they could get to America.
    
    

The Scottish Catholic population is now greater than 10% with the majority being 
concentrated in the greater Glasgow area.Most of these catholics are of Irish 
descent. The indigenous Scottish catholics are concentrated in the North East,
Aberdeen and environments, and the Western Seaboard.
The North East was,and still is, the province of the Clan Gordon,one of the few
Clans that never converted and the Western Seaboard either became Episcopalian 
or remained Catholic in defiance to the Central Sasennach Government.
Most of the Hebrides on the West coast embraced Calvinism in its most extreme 
form,the exceptions being the Isle of Barra and one of the Uists.
The American Catholics of Scottish descent will be descendants of the Clansmen
cleared from these places in the 19 th. century.
Some confusion over names will probably arise from the names that were common in 
both Scotland and Ireland.
Some Catholic McDonalds or McDonnels will be from Antrim and other N.I. 
locations rather than from Scotland.
Today in Scotland a person with an Irish surname like Delaney,Donnelly,O'Neil 
etc. will more than probably be Catholic.When it comes to purely Scottish names
like Campbell,Murray or Douglas then they could be either or.


                                                             Kenny.

Never before have I reacted so strongly to a note and its replies. It's making
me overcome my "read-only" status. Both my parents come from Ayrshire, my
mother as a young child in 1929 (great timing) and my father as a young man in
1934. When my brothers and I were young, my parents told only funny, happy
stories of the old country. When we were older and asked more pointed questions,
the stories became darker, and I suppose, more true. 

My father passed up a full university scholarship to come to this country. When
he arrived, he did not complete an undergraduate degree until 1948. When I asked
why he took on that, he told me that he knew of only one other Catholic who had
gone to university and he could only teach at a Catholic grammar school. My
father wanted to be an accountant. So naturally he had to leave the country.
This was common knowledge, conventional wisdom.

My father and I finally took that trip to the old country that he always talked
about. Everyone we visited made a point of explaining that "things" were not
nearly as bad as they were. Why, you could stand anywhere you wanted at the
football match and trade with any store you pleased. On the plane home, I
    told my father I was very glad to be American.

Please do not misunderstand my country.
Things were grim in the past but common sense and the natural egalatarianism 
of the Scots has at long last prevailed.
In Scotland there is now a strong Irish Catholic middle class with all the 
attendant economic and voting power that entails.
O.K. there are certain golf clubs and organisations that will never admit a 
Catholic and there will never be a Catholic party leader or Prime Minister but 
on the whole life for Catholics is just the same as for most other Scots.
The fact that I am sitting here and typing this is testimony of how life has 
changed.
The fact that there is a minority of people that live in a dark and murky past 
is something we have to accept and deal with.
We are no longer a persecuted and despised minority and more importantly we 
no longer have a siege mentality.
I have every expectation that my son,if he has the ability,can go to the 
university of his choice and persue the career he wants without being held back
because of his religion.
Apart from the weather I consider Scotland to be the greatest country in the 
world and it would break my heart if I had ever to leave.
I and most of my co-religionists consider ourselves to be Scots through and 
through.

                                                   Kenny.  

    re: .10
    
    It may be a moot point, however, when you refer to your son's religion,
    is that his chosen religion or a religion chosen for him?
    
    Regards,
    	    Don H.
    

My son's religion was chosen for him by virtue of the fact that he was born into
a family that is by culture and tradition Catholic.
But this is not the point.
As a Scot you will know that if my son rejects Catholicism when he is older and 
converts to another religion,or if he has no religion,he will always be classed
as a Catholic.
In the mind of certain people it is not the fact of his practicing Catholocism
but the fact of his situation at birth which determines how he is viewed.
He could be a rampant aetheist and still be denied entry to certain 
organisations.


                                         Kenny.

    RE: .12
    
    I'm glad you answered in that vein. That is the root cause of the
    issue. Your son and mine and everyone else's is tarred with a
    brush for life whether he be black, blue, orange or green. 
    
    It's a sad state of affairs that human nature tends to pigeon hole
    individuals and then applies reactions to those individuals based
    on the 'standards' appropriate to said p-holes
    
    Don H.