Conference tallis::celt

    Arthur was supposedly a tribal leader somewhere in Britain (possibly
    the west of England, possibly Wales), though no one knows where
    or when for sure.
    
    Glastonbury is indeed one of many many places to supoosedly have links 
    with Arthur and Camelot. Others are in Cornwall (a Celtic region of the
    west Country and formerly with its own Celtic language) and in Wales,
    as well as other various places scattered around western England.
    It is one of the places which is claimed to be the site of Arthur's
    grave, as well as being where the Holy Grail was brought home from
    the Holy Land. Its tourist industry does exceedly well out of this
    vague association (it is also a pretty little town).
       
    All the legends surrounding Arthur have got muddled and added to
    over the years, in the best fashion of medieval storytellers, so
    it depends on whose versions you want to believe.
    
    I don't believe any of the stories actually pinpoint where Camelot
    or Arthur's grave is actually situated.
    
    I have a few versions of Arthurian legends kicking around at home,
    one a modern summary and one a Norman French version (translated
    into English, mind you), not to mention the Victorian poetical
    adaptations. The stories can differ quite a bit.
            
    The "definitive" studies on King Arthur  that I've seen usually bear 
    as much relation to real facts as interpretations of Nostradamus
    - they're usually about 90% speculation. The legends themselves
    are fun though.
    
    John (English, but with some Welsh roots too)

    I took a course in Comparative Literature in college (Smith) on
    Arthurian Legend and due to the fact that our professor was
    actually a member of the Round Table (or at least that was our common
    consensus) we picked up quite a bit of information.  
    
    Arthur did indeed exist as a powerful warring chieftain and if I 
    can remember the timing correctly from my notes we are talking
    sometime around the years 520 to 560 (this could be a little off, it 
    was 3 years ago).
    
    We also discussed the ties to Glastonbury, Cornwall and Wales and
    I remember the mention of a place called Caerleon.  I know I have
    a map pinpointing supposed areas of Arthur's actions and battles
    if you send me your location (external, I'm leaving DEC this week)
    I'd be happy to send you some copies if I can find them in my parents'
    basement.
    
    I also remember discussing the existence of two Guineveres.  Arthur
    first married a cousin by the name of Guinevere who died quite young
    and then married another (wierd, eh?).
    
    I'll check when I get to my folk's house and see what I can find,
    but for the most part the romance of the story was created later
    (read Chretien de Troyes) and the story was embellished upon each
    time.  
    
    Well, I'll see what I can find and send it off to you.
    
    Christine (who was glad she didn't take the course on The Canterbury
    	       Tales - the same professor used to make you memorize
    	       passages in Old English with the correct pronunciation and 
               make you recite during roll calls, horror of horrors!)
    
    
               

Christine,

Yes! That would be great!  Please send what you can and I'll copy and return all
post haste.  The map sounds especially interesting.

Hmmm. Two Guineveres. That's a new twist.
I suspect I've gotten myself into another prolonged research project.

Your comment on "Cant. Tales" sure brought a smile. And thanks up front for your
troubles.  I can think of many things I'd rather do than rummage in the folks' 
basement.

my external-

Richard Sperandio
909 Concordia Lane, 2-So.
Clayton, MO 63105

    
    Nasty thought for the celt conference -
    
    What if Author was really a Saxon, or An Angles??
    
    It was these kings that united england.
    
    grins,
    
    clark.

	Hello there,

	I have quite a lot of info on Arthur both historical and
	otherwise, which I will dig out this weekend.  Particularly
	a book by Count Tolstoy mainly about Merlin and his place
	as a true historical character.  There are some very persuasive
	arguments for the whole mythology and it is generally accepted
	that Arthur and all the others really did exist, although
	maybe not in quite the way the legends tell.

	Anyways, I shall look out my various literature at the weekend
	and note back to you the relevant details.

	Arthur's seat, by the way is outside Edinburgh, but the Merlin
	book (aforementioned) does also put forward some pretty
	strong arguments in favour of Arthurian connections with the
	area to the south of the Scotts border, and also for Arthur
	being Welsh, or rather from the general area which was
	considered to be Celtic at the time rather than the land
	mass which we non-Welsh now call Wales.

	So until after the weekend, happy hunting!

	Cathy

    In Monty Python's Holy Grail a peasant asks Arthur who he is and
    he says, "I am Arthur, King of the Britons,...".
    
    Alot of Monty Python's comedy was based on true facts.  I've looked
    up a few of there comedy material and for real characters.
    
    Cheers,
    Paul
    

	Hello Richard,

	Firstly let me say that I was read the Arthurian Legends from
	an early age and am totally enamoured of them.  Secondly, as
	I have grown older (and wiser?), I have started to delve into
	the historical possibilities behind these legends, and have
	from several sources, formed the opinion, that there was
	certainly a historical character named Arthur and a that a
	great deal of the "legends" is based on facts which in some
	cases have come to light, and that Arthur was a King of the
	Britons, but not necessarily "of Briton".

	(After all King James I of the English was not "of England"!)

THE LEGENDS:

	So here firstly is what appears to be the commonly accepted
	bones of the Legends:

	Arthur was said to have been born a Tintagel in Cornwall. 
	He became King of Britain and held court at Camelot as the
	leader of a band of noble warriors, the Knights of the Round
	Table.  The Knights rode out to seek adventure and great deeds,
	notably in the quest of the Grail - in Christian legend the holy
	cup used by Christ at the Last Supper.  Arthur was betrayed by
	his wife Guinevere and his nephew or son, Mordred.  Wounded in
	battle against Mordred, he was carried away by three fairy queens
	to Avalon, the land of immortal heroes, from which he will return
	to lead his countrymen in time of their greatest peril.

	In Celtic legend he became a great hero, violent and boisterous
	who rid the land of Giants, monsters and witches.  He 
	slaughtered the Demon Cat of Losanne, he hunted the fabulous
	boar Twrch Trwyth and so on.

	In the early Celtic stories, Arthur has a large band of heroic
	comrades, including Cei Wynn (Sir Kay), Bedwyr (Sir Bedivere),
	Gereint (Sir Gareth), Gwalchmai (Sir Gawain), LLenlleawc
	(Sir Lancelot), and Drwst Ironfist (Sir Tristan?).

	Arthur is often sighted as being the son of Uther Pendragon
	(of whom no real reference seems to have been found), but
	this may be a mistranslation from the Welsh "Arthur mab Uthr"
	or "Arthur the terrible" as "Arthur son of Uther" (AP being
	"son of" in Welsh)

	The full legends as we have them today seem to come down almost
	untouched from Geoffrey of Monmouth's History of the Kings of
	Britain.  His sword was originally called Caliburn and his
	shield Pridwen. (In fragments of an earlier Welsh poem, this
	was the name of his ship).

	Arthur also "subdued the Scots" and his sister married Loth
	the Duke of Lothian whose sons were Gawain and Mordred thereby
	establishing a physical link with the North.

	The final battle where Arthur was mortally wounded was called
	by Geoffrey of Monmouth "The battle of Camel", but in the
	Cambrian Annals "The battle of Camlann" and the date as 542.

CAMELOT:
	This was never mentioned until Chretien de Troyes wrote of
	Arthur between 1160 and 1180.  3 centuries later, Mallory
	equated it with Winchester, but on once with Carlisle. It has
	since been "guessed" at Colchester, Tintagel (which contains
	the River Camel and Camelford).  The strongest candidate, though
	is Cadbury Castle in Somerset.  It overlooks the Vale of Avalon
	to Glastonbury Tor.  The village of Queen Camel is fairly
	close as is the River Cam.

GLASTONBURY:
	At the start of the Christian era, This was virtually and
	island surrounded by lagoons and rivers.  To British Celts
	it was a place of great religious awe, the enchanted Isle
	of Avalon.  An alternative name was Ynys-witrin, the Isle
	of Glass - Glastonbury being a corrupt Anglo-Saxon rendering.

	Joseph of Arimathea was said to have built a wattle chapel
	there and this was standing during the early Middle Ages.
	Caradoc of Llancrfan was the first to associate Arthur with
	Glastonbury.  Somerset's King Melwas had a stronghold
	nearby and carried of Guennuvar and kept her there.  Arthur
	invaded to rescue her.  Recently what may be a Dark Age
	Citadel on the Tor seems to give some credence to the
	existence of Melwas....

AVALON:
	The Other possible burial place.  This may have been the
	Island of Avallach.

MORGAN LE FAY:
	In Legend Arthur's sister.  Daughter of Avallach king of the
	enchanted Island known as Avalon.


THE FACTS:	
	Count Nikolai Tolstoy in his book "The Quest For Merlin"
	ISBN 0-340-42777-9 Printed by Sceptre Books 1988,
	puts forward many convincing, historically backed arguments
	for the existence of Merlin, and by connection, Arthur.
	He also links him quite strongly with the border regions
	which would have equated to the area ruled by Loth.

	There's an awful lot in there, too much to type of photocopy.
	But he sets out to prove that Merlin was a left over Pagan
	Holy man or Shaman or "Wise Man" - probably a Druid
	and ties him in with many events and locations connected with
	The Arthurian "legends".

	Most interestingly, is a reference to a page from the Welsh
	annals,  I'll quote from him here:

	"This brief entry is amplified in another version of the
	annals inscribed on the flyleaves of a copy of the Domesday
	Book in the Public Records Office.

		'The Battle of Arderydd, between the sons of Elifer
		and Gwenddolau the son of Ceidio; in which battle
		Gwenddolau fell; Merlin became mad'.


	in the same flyleaf is a reference to Arthur's victory at
	Badon and death at Camlann!!!

	This may seem all a little disjointed, but I've tried to
	put it all as sensibly as possible.  Personally, I have
	NO DOUBT that all the characters and events in Arthurian
	Legend had a basis in history and that in due course more
	evidence will be found to substantiate them (as in the case
	of the Greeks and Troy for example).
	Naturally, the exploits and properties of the characters
	have been "enhanced" through the years.

	If you want any further "specific" info, I'm only too happy
	to type it and mail, or photocopy and post.  By the way is
	the Marion Bradley book called "Mists of Avalon"?  If so I
	have that, and am surprised to hear that she could find no
	evidence in history in her researches.  It was a very well
	written book, with several interesting ideas about the
	"Legend".


	Cathy	

I'd like to thank you John, Christine, Clark,and Cathy for your input so far.

Now I need some time to digest all the new info and maybe next week I'll have 
some specific questions for you. I was thinking that about every 10 notes or so,
I'd like to try a Summary Note.  The final outcome of this Conference might be a
short story, or just a Summary (available to interested parties), depending on 
how this goes.  Maybe a copy to MZ Bradley with all our names as researchers.


re:.7
The Bradley book will be a new one on Morgaine le Fay.  If you liked "Mists" you
will like it.  I've only seen/helped with part of the ms. so far.  She has used
3 researchers in England to run down leads.  Her conclusion is that Morgaine
le Fay is "real enough for a novel".  As for Arthur, the only "verifiable"
historical note (according to MZB) is the sudden naming of male children all
across the area after Arthur.  


This is written in haste. Gotta go. Back next week.

- Richard

    
    	There is a NOTES file that you might find interesting - the
    subject of the ARTHURIAN legend is covered - and well too:
    
    	The Ancient World		SX4GTO::ANTIQUITY
    
    	Ann

"The Once and Future King" is available in paperback at the Paper Store
in Maynard, so it's probably available at a lot of bookstores now.

Randy

    At the end of each of the three volumes of Mary Stewart's Merlin
    trilogy there are various notes of interest.
    
    She refers to the Historia Brittonum written by a welsh monk called
    Nennius in the 9th century, and says it mentions 12 great battles,
    which she thinks refers to Arthurs battles (although it doesn't
    mention Arthur by name) and says that it explicitly lists the Battle
    of Mount Badon as the last of these (according to legend this was
    A's last battle against the Saxons).
    
    She also offers a theory as to why Arthur is not listed in the
    histories.  Gildas the monk, writing in the 6th century also refers
    to the battle at Mount Badon without mentioning Arthur, and she
    goes on to explain in one book that Gildas' brother Heuil and Arthur
    were known (?) to be enemys and so Gildas may not have like Arthur
    either, and in another book she says that this may be a sign of
    church disapproval of Arthur (i.e. he embraced christianity in name
    only).
    
    I certainly recommend the notes at the end of these books being
    read, and the references followed up by any serious researcher.
    
    BTW - when's this new BRADLEY book due out?
    
    Jenny

Thanks, Jenny.  The Mary Stewart books are great. I liked them better than "Once
And Future King".  I'd forgotten about the reference list you've pointed out.  
Will add this info to my compilations if it checks out.

Does anyone know if said list is compiled under literary license, or is this a
list of real references? 


It makes sense that the monks only recorded cristian events. After all, what 
pagan could even read, let alone have the capacity for "civilized" pursuits
which would be worthy of recording for posterity.

There must be some reason that Arthur is not recorded.  Your expl.seems 
plausible to me.  Makes me wonder what else happened then but was never 
recorded. 

The Morgaine Le Fay book is due after August I think. I expect it to be a
possible series. I was promised an advance reading copy but have not received it,
yet...Will keep MZB fans posted with updates.

- Richard

    My dear friends let's get some things straight before we go any
    further;
    1) Arthur's seat is slap bang in the middle of Edinburgh,at one
    end of what's called the Royal Mile.
    2) King James the Sixth was firstly the King of Scots and only became
    the King of the United Kingdom,NOT of England or the English, in
    1603.    
    3) The ancient SCOTS Celtic Kingdom of Strathclyde stretched from
    the Firth of Clyde in the north to the northen reaches of the British
    Kingdom of Wales,the ancient name for it escapes me at the moment,in
    the south.
    4) To suggest that a Celtic hero ,whether he be P Celt or Q Celt,was
    an Angle or Saxon is tantamout to suggesting that the English are
    a wonderful nation,my God no wonder a man takes a wee refreshment
    or twenty.
    
                                                      Kenny