Conference tallis::celt

    
    
    It's about time !!!
    
    
    
    
    keVin
    

    
      I'll second that keVin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
     paddy

    
     Yeah, after 16 years I'll betcha they've worked up quite a thirst.
    
     And as we all know, a thirst is a DANGEROUS thing!   8-)
    
     Frank
    

    
    
    I'm going to a guinness promo tonight....   Ha  Ha   Ha  and you ain't
    
    But don't tell the wife she thinks it's a church meeting.  8*)
    
    paddy

    British justice is the best in the world - that's why it takes so
    long;-)

    The USA sunday night program "60 Minutes" did a 20 minute segment
    about the "6" last night.  It had some very good detail in it
    and really lifted the cover on "british justice".
    
    They stated that they're still in prison and didn't mention when 
    they might actually be realised.
    
    Cheers,
    Paul

    They are out!!!
    
    
    Happy Paddy's Day to all.

My mother recently taped a docu-drama about the Birmingham Six which
highlighted the work done by Chris Mullen (played by John Hurt).

It's very revealing, and shows up the British judiciary for what it is.

Anyone want a copy?

Pat

      
    
    
    
        The Birmingham Six are free!!!!!!!

    
     Well, here's a glass to 'em.
    
     Their case has turned the world's eye on the British system of
    "justice" and may have done much to prevent such travesties in the
    future.
    

    re .8 the docu-drama
    
    It was shown over here on the ITV network a while ago and is very good. 
    As it is a play you have to form your opinions on what is definitely
    true but it is alledgedly all based on fact.  
    
    It is definitely worth viewing and is very revealing - there was a
    similar one shown last year on the John Stalker affair, this is also
    worth a watch and again is very revealing.
    
    The docu-drama on the 6 highlights the courage and persistence of Chris
    Mullen MP and at the end he actually names the men who he insists were
    the Birmingham Pub Bombers.
    
    Mullen has had a great influence on bringing this case back to the
    appeal courts and so has the Lawyer for 5 of the 6 whose name has
    slipped my mind at the moment.
    
    Heres to the 6 and the people who were insrumental in fighting for
    their freedom and lets hope the criminals within the system are brought
    to justice.
    
    		Brian.

     
    The lawyer for 5 of the six is Gareth Pierce, I think

    
     Anyone got the lawyers address.  I'd like to send him a
    congratulations note.
    
    paddy

    
     Well, now, yesterday being my birthday, the freedom of these six men
    made it a really HAPPY one.  
    
     Front pages of both the Boston Herald and the Globe, and probably 
    every other paper in the world this morning, have great pictures of 
    the men walking to freedom.
    
    Frank
    

    News about England juridical system reach Puerto Rico. England will
    establish a commission to investigate thier court system after they
    found the 6 men innocent. I am happen that they are free and hope
    this will not happen again.
    
    Jose
    

    The commission is a waste of time and an excuse for a cover-up. It will
    spend two years searching for faults in a judical system that was not
    really to blame for the imprisionment of the '6'. The simple fact of
    the matter is that these men were sent to prison because they were
    Irish. They were found guilty by the English media before they went to
    trial and no judge would dare rule against the English gutter-press.
    
    The English government announced this commission to hide the real
    problem, that Irish people don't get a fair trial in England.

    RE. -1
    	While I agree that the judges have to take some of the blame for
    the wrongful imprisonment of the 6, I think you have to realise that
    they can only judge on the evidence put before them.  Really it is
    the police who fabricated the stories and confessions that should be
    brought to justice - these are the people who have done most to
    wrongfully imprison the men for over 16 years.
    
    It will be interesting to see what happens to George Reade & co of the
    West Midlands serious crime squad after the Royal Commission and all
    subsequent investigations.  I have a feeling that unfortunately they
    will not pay for their crimes.
    
    		Brian.

    
    
    ...and in our joy for the Birmingham 6 lets not forget the others in jail 
    due to an inadequate judicial system.  A system that puts innocent
    people in jail as easily as it does guilty ones.  
    
    ...And then we should be screaming our lungs out at a judicial system that
    takes 16 years to clear it's wrongs. 
    
    ...Don't even think for a moment this commission will ferret out
    anything new.  There have been dozens set up in the past and all to my
    knowledge there has always been a whitewash.  I see no reason for this
    to change now.
    
    ...Although the Police conspired in the investigation it's the system
    that must be changed.  Both in England and in Northern Ireland.  The 
    Irish are at serious risk when brought under charges in both places.
    
    paddy   
         
      

    .20 
    Lets not forget Eire's system either - the word of a Guarda is enough
    to put you inside, with no trial and no appeal, under the offenses
    against the state act !

    The World In Action programme last night here in the UK was "The
    Birmingham Six - In their Own Words"  It was an hour long programme
    made entirely from interviews with the six on the day following their
    release.  The programme was their recollection of events from the
    evening of the bombings through to their release last week and the
    campaigning they will take up in the future to free other innocent
    people held in British Jails.
    
    It was horrific to hear what they were put through by police and prison
    warders  - how they were beaten and forced to face mock executions with
    police firing blanks against their heads, how they were not allowed to
    sleep, how police threatened to let "screaming mobs" loose at their
    families, how hair was literally pulled from their heads and how one of
    the six was beaten so badly that his ears bled from the inside for
    three days and that not even his own daughter could recognise him.
    
    I hope the police and prison warders who carried out these crimes were
    watching last night and feel sickened by what they did to defenceless
    INNOCENT men.  These men should be made to pay for what they have done,
    they should think themselves lucky that the sentencing of the six came
    too late for hanging or they would have six murders on their
    conscience.
    
    The programme showed me what strong men the six must be and I now hope
    they are successful in their caimpaigning for the freedom of other
    innocent people.
    
    		Brian.  

    Whilst we're on the subject, lets take a few minutes to remember the
    21 innocent people who died and the 125 innocent people who were
    seriously injured for the rest of their lives in the Birmingham pub
    bombings.
    
    The "6" are victims of the IRA terrorist campaign every bit as much as
    they are victims of British justice. The case of the "6" and of the
    Guildford_4 and the Maquires has succeeded in identifying some areas
    of law/police_procedures that require attention. British public concern
    is such that I am assured that these areas will be addressed.
    
    The "6" could have been released at any time during the past 16 years
    if the IRA had chosen to reveal the real bombers. It is interesting to
    observe that when released, the bombers were welcomed by IRA leaders
    with a proven track record of violence. We need to be clear that the
    pub bombings and the events of the last 16 years is both an
    orchestrated exercise in terrorism and in trying to discredit British
    justice.
    
    I hope that Peter Brooke's recent initiatives will result in a lasting
    peace for Northern Ireland. When the underlying cultural and social
    and religious problems are resolved, the IRA will find they have no
    cause to support. This is the real hope for the future.
    
    Dia dhuit,  Ian
     
                                              

   > The case of the "6" and of the
   > Guildford_4 and the Maquires has succeeded in identifying some areas
   > of law/police_procedures that require attention. British public concern
   > is such that I am assured that these areas will be addressed.


    I'm not sure if this is meant to be a joke or not !...If it is sorry!
    
    But saying that law/police_procedures "require attention" is as big
    an understatement as believing that "British public concern" will
    address these areas. 


    >The "6" could have been released at any time during the past 16 years
    > if the IRA had chosen to reveal the real bombers.

     Come off it !! You don't believe that nonsense.


    > when released, the bombers were welcomed by IRA leaders
    > with a proven track record of violence.We need to be clear that the
    > pub bombings and the events of the last 16 years is both an
    > orchestrated exercise in terrorism and in trying to discredit British
    > justice.

     Please inform us how this is an exercise in "discrediting" british
     justice..Must have missed something here....You wouldn't be reading
     english mainland newspapers alot by any chance.

    regards,

    Mick                                            

    
    re: .24
    
    
    Well, well, well: if it isn't Ian "Shoot the Poofters" Loughlin. 
    So nice of you to take time out from discussing the fall of the
    British "Empire" (snicker, what "empire?!") with Lords Denning and
    Lane.
    
    Why don't you take your closet-colonial, condescending, (better yet),
    downright patronizing crap note over to Euro Forum where you and 
    the other Dodo Brit colonialists wallow in your Brit self-serving,
    self-justifying interference in IRISH affairs, blatantly supporting
    your government's use of 19th century brutal colonial methods to solve 
    a 20th century socio-economic problem.
    
    And what a note: it reads like a litany of two-faced filth:
    with your "dia Dhuit" on one hand, and your title of "Innocent or not
    proven guilty?", and your classic, "The '6' are victims of the IRA terrorist
    campaign every bit as much as they are victims of British justice" on 
    the other. What a *gem* that last statement is. "British *Justice*"
    for Irish suspects is just as much an oxymoron as is "Great Britain"
    is for for Irish people living in the failed statelet of "Northern
    Ireland."
    
    Why don't you just say what everybody knows in Britain, but is never
    said aloud in polite circles: The Birmingham 6 were *GUILTY* because 
    they were IRISH. They were framed because they were IRISH. They were beaten
    severely because they were IRISH. They did 16+ years because they
    were the next best thing to the perpetrators: they were IRISH.
    SO take your patronizing, racist filth out of here Ian. No one's buying
    it. 
    
    As I've said before and I'll say again: an Irishman's chances of getting 
    a fair trial in England are LESS than that of a blackman getting a fair 
    trial in the deep south, circa 1930, with an all-white jury. At least, 
    in this latter case, there wouldn't be the overwhelming Brit hypocrisy 
    of "fairness", "justice", and "civility", that the Brits like to 
    pretend their justice system is, to the world - esp. in cases of Irish
    suspects.
    
    
    ps
    
    And do spare us the part about your ancestry being part "Oirish", OK Ian?
    No one's buying that either.

Indeed Ian, we must never forget the 21 innocent people who died.
That is a terrible, terrible tragedy.

However, I don't agree with your logic that the "6" could have
been released if the IRA revealed the real bombers.  That is a
contorted system of justice.  If the evidence of the crime did
not exist or was fabricated, then those men should not have been
put in jail.  That is also a terrible tragedy.

    Gee Joe, I'm really surprised (and disappointed) that you still work
    for Digital. I thought that maybe your vitriolic hatred of all things
    British would have burned you out by now.
    
    At least you are correct that I will never understand the Irish,
    especially the fact that twice as many Irish nationals choose to
    live and work in GREAT BRITAIN rather than Eire. (For God's sake
    don't translate that into an anti-Irish statement also !!).
    
    I take great comfort in the fact that I know, and work with, many
    many more Irish people who adopt a constructive, positive and forward
    thinking approach to current events instead of your juvenile drivel.
    
    I chose to enter my reply because the picture that you and your kind
    paint of GREAT BRITAIN is totally inconsistent with the truth. God
    knows what people from around the world, who may be reading this
    notefile, think of GREAT BRITAIN and IRELAND, based on your stupid
    comments.
    
    As a general rule in life Joe, one shouldn't say anything unless it is
    positive and constructive. Any fool can criticise and be negative. On
    this precept I expect golden silence from you in the future.
    
    Regards and peace be with you.  Ian
    

>              <<< Note 863.30 by FIELD::LOUGHLINI "Carpe Diem" >>>
>                              -< pip-pip and rip >-

>    Gee Joe, I'm really surprised (and disappointed) that you still work
>    for Digital. I thought that maybe your vitriolic hatred of all things
>    British would have burned you out by now.
 
I agree with Ian. It's really sad reading all the flame wars you get in
here and in other celtic forums. Not only are they Irish dominated but
they seem to be dominated by expat Irish who seem to think that their
views on Ireland are so important that they have to expound them at
every possible opportunity, use coarse language and generally act in
a manner completely contrary to the warm welcome the Celtic countries
are supposedly famous for.

And as for this nonsense:

>                     <<< Note 863.26 by WREATH::DROTTER >>>
>                         -< Ta-ta, pip pip, what ho?! >-


>    the other Dodo Brit colonialists wallow in your Brit self-serving,
>    self-justifying interference in IRISH affairs, blatantly supporting
>    your government's use of 19th century brutal colonial methods to solve 
>    a 20th century socio-economic problem.

It's pretty funny really. Someone living in the US talking about intefering
in Irish affairs by outsiders!!! What's this got to do with the US any more
than the UK??? How about some opinions from people in Ireland rather than
all these do-good expats??

How many times has the pro-Irish US Media painted a misrepresentative
picture of the situation in Northern Ireland so that NorAid can get funds
to support terrorism? Talk about blatent interference!
    
>    As I've said before and I'll say again: an Irishman's chances of getting 
>    a fair trial in England are LESS than that of a blackman getting a fair 
>    trial in the deep south, circa 1930, with an all-white jury. At least, 
>    in this latter case, there wouldn't be the overwhelming Brit hypocrisy 
>    of "fairness", "justice", and "civility", that the Brits like to 
>    pretend their justice system is, to the world - esp. in cases of Irish
>    suspects.
    
This is a Celtic forum. I would have expected that here of all places
you would appreciate that there is more to GB than just England. Scotland
has different laws and a different legal system. If the 6 were tried in
Scotland, they could quite possibly have got off with a verdict of 'Not
Proven' and walked free. 

Craig

    
     Ian,
    
        Nice to see you are getting active in this file, too bad it's in
    the auspices of defending the British judicial system especially in
    this case.  I don't for a minute think the IRA had to come out and name
    the bombers since HMG had the names of the true bombers as early on as
    1976.  This is a clear case of cover-up on the part of HMG and all 
    invlolved. HMG has gotten carried away with it's self righteous
    attitude and needs to be taken down a peg or two when it comes to the
    treatment of the Irish.
    
    My government was in the same place no to many years ago. I remember
    when watergate was a household word here.
    
    
    I truely hope this turns into HMG's Watergate.  
    
    All governments need to be smacked into reality every so often. Your's
    included. A forced house-cleaning is due don't you think?
    
    If you really believe the gov't is innocent of wrongdoing in this then 
    I think something is wrong with the picture. 
    
    And as to your statement that "at least you are correct that I will
    never understand the Irish, especially the fact that twice as many
    Irish nationals choose to live and work in GREAT BRITAIN rather than
    Eire."  Well the one's I have talked to have made the move to England
    because they were unable to get work in Ireland or North Ireland.  Not
    because, as you infer they would rather be in England.  If given their 
    druthers the majority would rather be home and working.
    
    
    Ah well the Birmingham 6 are out and now the fight continues to free
    other innocent people in British jails.  
    
    Ian,  just a question for you.  If you knew there was an innocent
    person in jail would you help to get him/her released?  Let's say it is
    an Irish person to make it more complicated. No, let's complicate it a
    bit more,  would you help fix the system that put him/her there?
    
    paddy   
    
    

>                     <<< Note 863.33 by WREATH::DROTTER >>>
>             -< Ask the Birmingham 6 about British "hospitality" >-

>    Lest these two Brit clowns (Loughlin and Cockburn) think that 
>    *I'm* giving the world the wrong impression about how *civilized* 
>    the British can be, allow me to enter some research and a 
>    personal experience. But first, a question: 

First off, I object strongly to notesfiles being used to launch personal
attacks against people. The sort of language used above is fighting talk.
While the situation in Northern Ireland certainly arouses strong feelings
on both sides I do not expect your argument with the 'British' army to 
spill over into offensive language against other Digital employees. 
I demand an apology for this unwarranted outburst.

You assume, incorrectly that I disagree with you. First of all let me
say that that comments here about 'British justice' in general need to
be qualified a little. There is no such thing. There is one system for
England and Wales and another for Scotland. The message attached may help
you understand the differences a bit better.

Let me also point out that I am no more interested in being ruled from
Westminster than Eire was 70 odd years ago. I am a member of the Scottish
National Party which advocates an Independent Scotland in the European
framework, the same as Eire enjoys now. The Scots have no choice over
where their recruits are sent. This policy is decided in Westminster by
a government which Scotland did not vote for and which 38% of Scots want
independence from. In the Gulf war, Scotland contributed far more for its
size than any other nation after the US. This was again decided by
Westminster. 

Comments such as 'The British Army' in Northern Ireland. Well, it's an
army made up of proportionally more Scots than English but governed by
an English government which well over 50% of Scots want either independence
from or devolution from. Throwing Scottish (and Welsh) opinion in with
that of Whitehall is downright offensive for many people. Given an 
independent Scotland with a choice over where it sent its army, it
might end up just being the English army in Northern Ireland exercising
their influence over the problem they created.

Your arguments are against Whitehall and Westminster. Taking them out
on people such as the Scots who have a completely different legal 
system and many of whom have a similar outlook on having foreign rule
imposed on them just doesn't make any sense at all to me.

	Craig

Article 1264 of soc.culture.celtic:
From: morna@cs.ed.ac.uk (Morna J. Findlay)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Birmingham Six
Reply-To: morna@lfcs.ed.ac.uk (Morna J. Findlay)

In article <1991Mar16.112702.48014@ccvax.ucd.ie> louboutn@ccvax.ucd.ie (Sylvain Louboutin, Dept. of Computer Science) writes:
>In article <668960936.AA13187@flaccid>, maura@pyra.co.uk (Maura Clark) writes:
>> Not strictly true ... rather it has been unofficially NOT proved that they
>> are guilty. 
>
>I am a bit confused.  Aren't you innocent until proven guilty?  Or is the 
>British system working on a different basis?
>

Firstly, there's no such thing as a "British System".

The English system, under which the six were convicted, operates
of course on an innocent until proven guilty, basis. Its is not
neccesary, as Maura worries, to be proved innocent. The burden is
on the prosecution is to prove guilt.

As the court of appeal has overturned the original conviction.
What this means is that if the new evidence had been available to
the jury at the time, they would not have been convicted - not
pronounced guilty - and are therefore innocent.


The Scottish system has a third verdict - "Not Proven", which
means roughly - "We can't prove you did it but we don't want to
absolve you". Juries often pick this as an easy option in
difficult cases. It's quite common in cases of Rape, for
example.


Also uncorroborated confessions are not and never have been
admissable in Scottish courts. I don't know why the English
persist with them. The Guildford Four and the MacGuire
Seven in particular, wuld never have been tried - let alone
convicted here.


And thank goodness we don't have Capital Punishment anywhere in
Britain!


M

--
Morna Findlay 					JANET:morna@uk.ac.ed.lfcs 
	Thanksgiving For a National Victory (Robert Burns)
Ye hypocrites! are these your pranks? To murder men and give God thanks?
Desist, for shame! Proceed no further: God won't accept your thanks for murther.

    I remember the Birmingham bombings well.  I worked in the UK at the
    time and recall workmates angrily talking of the Irish bastards" to my
    face.  This was very minor compared to the beatings etc. that otehr
    Irish people suffered and anyway I never took no shit from noone;-)
    
    Some people say it was understandable - the anti-Irish reaction to the
    bombings, but I personally think it was the deep prejedice coming to the
    surface.  We have had many more deaths here in the island of Ireland
    and the Dublin/Monaghan bombings were the worst of the troubles.  I
    never noticed anti English racism in these situations.  I did notice
    anger directed at the British Establishment as in the burning of their
    Embassy here in the wake of Bloody Sunday shootings of 13 innocent
    civilians.
    
    The Birmingham are innocent and are free!
    
    Ireland is innocent and will soon be free!
    
    -Dermot

    Leaprechauns will plump for the positive approach.
    
    1. Craig Cockburn is correct there is no such thing as British justice.
       (I would ask you all to cool down folks)
    
    2. The Birmingham six are free and are declared innocent.
    
    3. The English system of justice no matter how flawed was eventually 
       brought down by right-minded English people as well as others.
    
    4. The alacrity with which the guilty in this case will be pursued will
       not match that with which the six were pursued but that is exactly 
       what the six would have wanted for themselves e.g. conclusive proof,
       and not trumped up charges.
    
    5. The gutter press can be managed and in turn it manages others e.g.
       the racist remarks to Irish people in Britain.  This gutter press 
       must now eat its own headlines.  It probably won't and society sadly
       will not punish it for this.
    
    6. Mr. Loughlin's remarks re who the freed men met on their release is
       exactly the type of logic that sent these men down.  e.g. guilt by 
       association.  I hope he realises that this very logic committed a 
       heinous crime when applied by those prosecuting the original case.
    
    7. The Irish people who live and work in the U.K. are the cheapest 
       product on offer to that economy.  They are spectacularily well
       educated at zero cost to the British taxpayer and we all know that
       to bring a person to the level of the three R's alone involves huge 
       expenditure.  Meanwhile the economy that funded that cost forfeits
       the return on its investment and is furthermore told that its lucky
       that England is there to cream it off.  
    
    8. Finally the concepts underlying English justice are fine and
       honourable and can be held up as an example to the world.  It is
       the application of these principles by people whose credibility is
       in serious question that is causing problems.  Irish cases in the
       past two decades have but been the microscope that has brought this 
       mess to the surface.  For that alone the English may yet thank us.
       Never forget that many English people rot for the same reasons and
       many English innocents have been maimed etc. by that system for
       other felonious crimes (there is no legal concept or precedent 
       existing for "terrorist" crimes).
     
    
       Snake is out of annual mourning.
    

    
    Thank the lord for note 39, I though war had broken out.
    
    As I am currently on a trip from the US to Europe, it's an
    opportunity to peruse the British press, many of which were
    identifying potential cases for review already.  So there's
    hope for a lot of wrongly prisoned people - many of whom come from
    the ethnic minorities.
    
    One article managed to devote it's attention to thibngs irish other
    than the Birmingham six, noting St Patrick's day events.  (St padddy,
    now there's another brit....)  It quoted Brendan behan as saying that
    when St patrick drove all the snakes out of Ireland, they went to 
    England and became Judges.
    
    
    'nuff said.
    
     Colin
    
    

    
    -.1
      Colin,
    
         Has there been a list published yet.  I'd like to get to see it if
    it's around.  I'll make some calls tonight and see if I can get the
    list or at least one in particular name on the list.
    
    paddy
    
         I sure am glad the temperature has come down a couple degrees at
    least for now.  8*)
    
    

      Lest the two Brit noters (in notes 30 and .31) think that *I'm* 
    giving the world the wrong impression about how *civilized* 
    the British government & Army can be, allow me to enter some research
    and a personal experience. But first, a question: 
     
    Do Americans really know what the following expression means, 
    
  "Torture is the Linch pin of *successful* convictions in Northern Ireland"

    I thought I would enter the following case to show noters how the
so-called *civilized* British government has not only perverted the
justice system in the north of Ireland, (by doing away with trial by jury),
but also to reveal the typical, savage treatment an Irish "suspect" can expect
at the hands of the ever-so-*elite* troops of the Brutish Army.

    Frankly, the case below makes the videotape of the LA beating seem like 
    a cake-walk by comparison.

   The following case of Patrick Shivers, an elderly civil rights worker from
Toomebridge, Co. Antrim is well documented in books and newspapers, and also,
I personally met and interviewed this man, who went through such a hideous
ordeal. Allow me to begin with the documentation from a published book, and
a reference from an article in the [London] "Sunday Times".
  
The following excerpt is from the book entitled, "Brian Faulkner And 
The Crisis of Ulster Unionism" written by Andrew Boyd, (Anvil Books Ltd. 
Tralee, Co. Kerry (c) 1972). 


     "Further facts about the torturing of the prisoners were 
      published by the Association for Legal Justice in Northern 
      Ireland. Fr. Denis Faul, a Catholic priest in Dungannon, County 
      Tyrone, named several members of the RUC Special Branch who, he 
      said, were using a compound within the British Army barracks at 
      Holywood, County Down, as their torture chamber.

      Details of the torture methods and of the psychological 
      investigation techniques used by the RUC and the Army on the 
      prisoners were also published in "The Sunday Times" on 
      17 October, 1971:     

          'All were blindfolded by having a hood, two layers of fabric
        thick, placed over their heads. These hoods remained on their
        heads for up to six days. Each man was then flown by helicopter
        to an unknown destination - in fact, Palace Barracks. During 
        the period of their interrogation, they were continually 
        hooded, barefoot, dressed only in an over-large boiler suit,
        and spead-eagled against a wall-leaning on their finger-tips 
        like the hypoteneuse of a right-angled triangle.

           The only sound that filled the room was a high-pitched throb,
        which the detainees liken to an air compressor. The noise 
        literally drove them out of their minds. At intervals they
        would be taken from their room for questioning by RUC Special
        Branch men. Unless they were cooperative they were returned
        to the room. This continued for up to six days.

           The 'disorientation' technique of interrogation is among
        the most secret areas of the British armed services' training
        techniques. Using Russian brainwashing techniques, it was 
        refined for British service by an RAF wing commander, who
        committed suicide later. It is taught to select military
        personnel at the Joint Services Interrogation Centre, whose 
        location is an official secret.

           The interrogation at Palace barracks was organized, so far
        as we have been able to ascertain, by men from the Joint
        Services Information Centre. The actual questioning appears
        to have been carried out by members of the Royal Ulster
        Constabulary Special Branch.'


       The torture of Patrick Shivers, a Civil Rights leader from
      Toombridge in County Antrim, who was later set free, was typical
      of the horrors inflicted on the men. Shivers was given "the full
      disorientation treatment soon after his arrest on 9 August":

          'I was taken into a room [he said] and in the room there was
         a consistent noise like the escaping of compressed air. It
         was loud and deafening. The noise was continuous. I then 
         heard a voice moaning. It sounded like a person who wanted 
         to die. My hands were put high above my head against a wall.
         My legs were spread apart. My head was pulled back by someone
         catching hold of the hood and at the same time my backside
         was pushed in so as to cause the maximum strain on my body.

           I was kept in this position for four, or perhaps six hours
         until I collapsed and fell to the ground. After I fell,
         I was lifted up again and put against the wall in the same 
         position and the same routine was followed until I again
         collapsed. Again I was put up and this continued indefinitely. 
         This treatment lasted for two or three days and during this time 
         I got no sleep and no food. I lost consciousness several times.'

       The full statement published by Pat Shivers reads like some 
      Orwellian horror. What he suffered was what hundreds of other men 
      also suffered. Some of them were aged and feeble, like 60 year-old 
      James Magilton of Belfast; some were young men like 19 year-old motor 
      mechanic, Joseph Clark, also of Belfast. Men with families of little 
      children, men in ill-health, and men who had served in the British Army 
      during the Second World War were beaten by the soldiers and tortured..."  
      (pp. 79-80).
                           [end of passage]

   In Part II, even more horrific revelations about the treatment of Irish 
suspects at the hands of British Army troops - direct from a personal 
interview with Patrick Shivers.

                              Part 2 of 2

   Having read Andrew Boyd's book in '72, while living in Ireland
at the time, I always remembered the story of Patrick Shivers.
During one of my subsequent trips up to the north in the late 70's, 
I had the good fortune of actually meeting Patrick Shivers in 
Toomebridge, Co. Antrim. Driving through the town, I stopped at
the one and only hotel there, which had a lounge bar, for a pint. 
While there, I inquired about Patrick Shivers. One of the patrons 
informed me, Shivers stopped in every afternoon for a pint, and would 
be there shortly. When he arrived, he talked to me at length about his 
torture at the hands of the British Army.

    Well, as it turns out, the documented article in the previously mentioned
book is only the tip of the iceberg of the cruel, sadistic, and inhuman
treatment Shivers received at the hands of the British Army. A brutal army
of colonial occupation portrayed ever-so-cleanly to the world by the British 
government as just 'umble "security forces.")

   When reading the following section, keep in mind Patrick Shivers and these
other men were only suspects, being taken in for questioning, and had NOT 
been charged with anything as of yet. When you read about the horrific 
treatment these men received, remember too the usual British propaganda, 
that these "security forces" are supposedly only over there to "keep law and 
order", in between the 10K road races or "fun runs". (The latter, is a popular 
portrayal in the British press of what their soldiers are doing in Ireland.) 

   Direct from Patrick Shivers himself, he stated there was the "usual" 
sleep deprivation - being beaten awake every two hours just so one
would be deprived of sleep - until eventually one was rendered 
senseless from the lack of sleep; severe beatings with clubs while 
standing there hooded; having someone sneak up behind him while standing 
spread-eagled, then firing a gun into the air, directly behind his 
head. He said he suffered permanent ear damage as a result of this. 

   But, what shocked me the most, was his story of how he and two others, 
were taken out and put in the helicopter, (he assumed that they were leaving 
the interrogation place.) Instead, they were taken up into the air, (by his 
own estimate, to about 3,000 ft), where instead of going anywhere, the chopper 
just hovered. At that point, they were hooded with cloth bags over their 
heads, in addition to being bound at the wrists and ankles. Next, the British 
soldiers began punching them, and sadistically tormenting them that they were 
going to be thrown to their deaths from the helicopter.

   Well, when it came time, (according to their British Army tormentors), for 
them to die, one of these hapless detainees was ceremoniously picked as the 
first to "go". He was tormented, teased, then hung out the side of the copter 
by his feet by the British soldiers, and laughingly dropped overboard. 
Of course the remaining two hooded prisoners heard the horrific screams of 
their fellow prisoner whom they thought had been dropped to his death some 
3,000 feet below. In reality, the *ever-so-civilized* British soldiers had 
descended in the chopper to a mere few feet off the ground in the barracks 
compound, unbeknownst to the poor hooded suspects in the back of the copter. 
   
   Each of the detainees was in turn hung out the side of the copter by his 
feet and dropped, all while being kicked and punched, and tormented with 
racial epithets. Shivers stated this was a routine form of torture by the 
*elite* British Army troops against Irish nationalist suspects and detainees. 
[Ed Note: I think "torture" is too strong a word here. Perhaps the polite
word "entertainment" might be more suitable. Don't you think so, Woody?]

    Patrick Shivers then related to me how he was subsequently released, and 
that no charges were ever brought against him by the British government.

   Not the end of story. Shivers brought legal action against the British 
government at the World Court for the physical and mental damage he received  
as a result of his "questioning". He won his legal case, and received a 
substantial monetary settlement against the British government for such 
sadistic torture.

   As long as I live, I shall never forget the horrible, uncontrollable, 
nervous twitch on the side of his face that Patrick Shivers now has as a 
result of his treatment by the British Army soldiers during interrogation.
[Aren't the British *ever-so-civilized*? I mean, Shivers was brought in for 
"questioning". My, my, what a genteel, polite word the Brits use to cover-up 
what really happened to him.]

To quote the aforementioned book, 

      "Many of the arrested men, as their release afterwards proved, 
       had no connection whatever with illegal terrorist organisations
       but they too, were the victims, according to evidence later 
       published in reputable newspapers like "The Sunday Times", of
       sadistic and inhuman assault during their internment and 
       interrogation."  (ibid, p.78)

   This kind of inhuman, savage behaviour is still happening in the north of 
Ireland today. On-going for almost TWENTY TWO YEARS now. And we're not even
talking about John Stalker's uncovering of a shoot-to-kill policy against
Irish nationalist suspects.

   Isn't it about time you British noters stop trying to deceive everyone,
(including yourselves), and begin to question the presence, methods, and 
motivation of your government in such an ignominious, nay,  depraved cause 
that seeks to continue such aberant behaviour instead of solving the problem?? 

      re.31
    
      >  How many times has the pro-Irish US Media painted a
      >  misrepresentative picture of the situation in Northern Ireland so
      >  NorAid can get funds to support terrorism?  Talk about blatent
      >  interference!
    
         I have to laugh at your seemingly total ignorance of the media's
    representation of the true situation in Northern Ireland.  Mr. Cockburn
    just humor me for one moment and give me specifics that back up such a
    ludicrous claim.  Since I live in the US I can tell you emphatically the 
    US madia does just the opposite. 
    
     I have said it many times before, and I'll say it again, the news about 
    Northern Ireland is filtered through Ruters(sp) this insures the slant to 
    benefit HMG whenever possible.
    
      An example is the most recent release of the B6.  One day news and that 
    is it. 
    No condemnation of any large scale of the system that allowed such a 
    horrific situation to continue and you can rest assured that is the end of 
    the news coverage on them for the most part.  
    
    Let the IRA bomb a building there is hell to pay for days from the 
    politicians down to the gutter press stories.    
    
    Sorry to say HMG and the US gov't are in bed together and will do
    everything in their power to paint a picture of HMG being lilly white.
    An innocent victim of circumstance. A protector of the innocent. A true
    guardian for all in Northern Ireland.  
     
    And your attack on NorAid you, as many others, have been sucked into
    believing something that the US gov't has been trying to prove for
    years. That NorAid is actually a IRA front.
    
      Where did you get the information that supports your claim of NorAid
    funding terrorists?  The US gov't would like your source.   
    
    Do you know that the IRS has monitored NorAid since the year after it's
    inception and has NEVER found one impropriety in the allocation of funds.  
    
    Don't get taken in so easily do some research before you make accusations 
    like that. 
    
    That way you aren't responsible for spreading rumor to people all over 
    the world that read this file.  
    
      You never know some may even belong to NorAid!  
    
    paddy

    Paddy,
    
    to answer your question, I did not see a list of potential review
    cases, but a Guardian article that listed several cases (such as that
    of Winston Silcott, convicted of participation of a police officer
    dusring the Broadwaterfarm riots - on the flimsiest of evidence.)
    
    I'd also like to point out that mnay media campaigners have written and
    produced films that supported the call for Justice for the Six, abnd
    for other wrongfully jailed individuals.  Even in such establishment
    organs as the Times, the appeal court system has been strongly attacked
    for some of its decisions.   Columnist bernard levin was once under
    threat of prosecution for his media attacks on high court Judges (in
    the '70s).  So you can't say that there are not specific journaslists
    who have sought to voice the opinions of many British people who have
    beleived for years thast the Judiciary needs a good shaking up.
    
    In the absence of justice from the British system (alleged), why
    is there not more use of theCourt of Human Rights?
    
    Regrads,
    
    Colin
    
    

  With the "flexible working practices" here in UK, I don't spend every
  day in the office so it can take some time to reply to notes. In the
  meantime other folks come in and say what I would like to have said
  or I miss the "timeliness" of replies. Anyway I'd now like to catch up
  a little whilst I'm waiting for a large printout.

  Re .32. Paddy: Nothing in my original note infers that I support or condone
  the situation that exists regarding the "6". OF COURSE our system needs
  smartening-up from time to time. It doesn't help that Lord Lane and company
  are almost geriatric. What I am most concerned about is the general picture 
  that is painted of GB and the British, based on a few cases. Although the
  case against the "6" and others is a scandal I will emphasise and restate my 
  belief that these are exceptions, not the rule, in GB. In the case of the
  "6" we need to look at each phase of the problem to rationally come up with
  solutions viz:-

  1. The original trial and "evidence". The evidence presented at that time
  caused the jury (not Lord Lane) to convict the "6". I suspect many of us
  might have reached the same verdict presented with the same "evidence". The
  smear test has now been discredited and uncorroborated "confessions" are no
  longer admissible in courts.

  2. Prison warders/police brutality. This again is inexcusable but pushes
  human frailties beyond endurance. Suppose a French-Canadian terrorist group
  swept down across NH borders and blew up "Brothers Four" killing 21 and
  injuring 125 of your family/friends/neighbours. If you caught them would
  you invite them to your Church barbeque?

  3. Appeal system. This is the area most needy of reform since I do believe
  our judges think our system/forensic evidence/police procedures are flawless.
  Clearly there are many instances where the appeal system has failed to right
  wrongful convictions.

  As for the general black picture painted about Irish people getting a fair
  trial in GB please remember that it was a British MP (Chris Mullin) and the
  British television (Granada - World in Action) and British solicitors
  (Gareth Pierce etc ) backed up by British public opinion who fought for and 
  won the release of the "6".

  Ref .35 Rene. I believe every single word of your entry to be a pack of
  lies. Your attitude/language/demeanor displayed in this notesfile confirms
  your personal problems that causes you to attract the kind of treatment you
  receive from normal people. Readers of this notesfile should not confuse
  Rene's regrettable experiences with those of more rational citizens.

  Ref .43 Joe. I am beginning to understand your problem also. You genuinely
  believe the crap that you write. I might possibly adopt your anger and
  frustration if we were talking about a South American banana republic where
  such incidents occur. I believe you have built up a scatoma to the British
  and NI situation such that you can ONLY see the incidents you describe. I
  suspect they are reinforced nightly by the horror-stories and chit-chat in
  Liam's pub in Framingham etc. I cannot deny that the incidents you describe
  are true (incidentally I cannot confirm them either). I would say that they
  are the inevitable consequence of a terrorist campaign which then requires
  a military response. To put it simply: No terrorism --> no soldiers --> no
  torture incidents.

  I find it particularly disturbing that here in 1991, terrorism is still
  perceived as a valid means of gaining independence or whatever. Surely
  there are better and peaceful ways of acheiving political aims. Of course
  this argument is in itself invalid given that Sinn Fein and IRA have such
  a low following in NI or anywhere else (except in Merrimack?) As I have said 
  before they represent no-one but themselves.

  I doubt if our views can ever be reconciled. My only hope is that recent
  political initiatives to resolve the NI problems will come to fruition such
  that this debate can fade into obscurity.

  Ian  (not Oirish but of Oirish origin two generations ago)

    re .46
    
     You claim that the common miscarriages of justice against Irish
    citizens in Britain are the "inevitable consequence of a terrorist
    campaign" and in the same breath deny that "we are talking about a
    South American banana republic" here???  
    
     NEWS FLASH!!  One of the characteristics of a South American "banana
    republic" (bigoted term that it is), vis-a-vis say Noriega's Panama,
    is the UNJUST IMPRISONMENT AND TORTURE OF ITS PEOPLE.
    
     The last I heard, Britain had yet to declare martial law suspending
    democratic rights.  
    
    Frank
    

  >2. Prison warders/police brutality. This again is inexcusable but pushes
  >human frailties beyond endurance. Suppose a French-Canadian terrorist group
  >swept down across NH borders and blew up "Brothers Four" killing 21 and
  >injuring 125 of your family/friends/neighbours. If you caught them would
  >you invite them to your Church barbeque?
    
    Ian, I disagree with your statement that police brutality is to be
    expected in cases of violent crimes.  A police force is expected
    to be professional, and that means not beating and torturing their
    suspects, regardless of the crime committed.
    
    Recently in the US there was a similar case of the Los Angeles police
    severely beating a black man who failed to pull his car over during
    a chase.  I'm sure the suspect wasn't a choir boy, but that does not
    give explicit or implicit approval to beat him.  Four police officers
    in the department have been arrested. I suspect than more police
    officers will be arrested and that the commissioner of police in LA
    will be sacked within a week.  I am wondering now what will Britain
    do to the police officers/wardens who beat and tortured the
    Birmingham 6?  As well as Lord Lane and other judges who ignored
    evidence?
    
    If Britain is serious about clearing its record of injustice and
    prejudice to Irish people in these and other cases, it should
    swiftly prosecute and imprison those who were responsible for
    the atrocities of beating, torturing, and wrongful imprisonment.
    
    George

    Ian
    
    I welcome the thought you put into your note (.46) and can understand
    your reaction to the allegations made against the British police/legal
    system.  I do however believe the system has been abysmal in relation
    to "Irish political" cases - certainly more than just one bad apple.
    We've had the Birmingham 6, we've had the Guildford 4, the Maguires and
    there are others.  We've had the Appaling vista of the Stalker Affair
    and the scandal of security forces passing documents to loyalists,
    we've had Gibraltar.  I could go on.
    
    Isn't it time for "all" participants in this conflict to get around a
    table and hammer out an agreement so that we can all live under fair
    and equitable systems of justice and policing?
    
    -Dermot

  re: .45
  
   Colin,

    After your bilious note (784.1) several months ago, I dare say you let 
your mask slip (ever so slightly), to reveal the heart of a standard-issue,
neocolonialist British subject: you can't see the forest from from the trees.

"(Alleged) injustice?" How many bloody examples does one have to have before one
realizes that the whole system is a 'meat-grinder' combination of archaic,
racistly anti-Irish, pro-colonial, "justice"??? Combined with the blatantly
racist attitudes of the British people, and what you have is a major, formidable
obstacle to not only peace in Ireland, but also a major (no pun intended)
roadblock to reform or change of the system:
as long as it (the meat-grinder INjustice system) is being used against
those upstart, contumacious Paddies, WHO IN BRITAIN CARES?! A few honest
Brits, yes (Mullin, and Gareth, etc.) but their voices amount to
a drop in the ocean 

  Tell me Colin, when is the last time you got off your big, fat, duff and sent 
a letter to your MP about the hatred, cruelty, and injustice your government 
openly promotes in NI - by maintaining the discrimination in jobs, housing, and
education?? And please, don't pretend you don't know these problems exist. 
   When is the last time you talked to Amnesty International about their
1988 publication "UK Northern Ireland: Killings By Security Forces; and 
'Supergrass' Trials" [AI Index Eur 45/08/88, ISBN 086210 148 4 June, 1988] 
c/o AI Publications 1 Easton St., London, WC1X 8D5. It's all the proof 
you'll need.

   Perhaps from a different approach, here is passage from someone who knows
first-hand about what an obstacle the British system of government (including
the *justice* system) is to peace in Ireland and for reforming itself.
From the booklet entitled "Against Violence In Ireland", 
written by Fr.Desmond Wilson. A priest whose flock, (West Belfast) has borne
the brunt of the British government's idea of *justice* for the last 25 years.


			British System of Government 
			Opposes Democracy in Ireland

	It has often struck me, reading newspaper reports which friends sent 
   me from the United States, that Americans have a great reverence for the 
   British system of government.  I wonder if anyone has ever explained to you 
   what the British system of government is really like.  It is the most 
   primitive form of government in Europe.

	The political institutions under which the English people have to 
   live are so primitive that we, as Irish democrats, cannot and will not 
   tolerate them.

	You read again and again in news reports of the great British 
  democracy, one of the greatest in the world, and how it stands bravely between
 warring factions in Ireland.  Many people say this is a true description of 
 our situation.

	It is not a true description.  Our problem is Ireland is that the 
 British government is imposing, by force of arms, a system of government 
 which is unacceptable to us as democrats. It is a system which no modern  
 democrat would accept.

	How could we ever, for example, agree to live under a hereditary 
 monarchy which is vested forever in an extremely rich family?  We read 
 about military juntas in various countries, and we suppose, quite correctly, 
 that it would be intolerable for democrats to be forced to live under such 
 regimes. And yet, every member of the British royal family is a member of 
 the British armed forces.  It is the most militarised family in Europe.  
 Even the Queen Mother is an admiral of the Fleet!

	The argument which any democrat will make against this kind of 
 regime is that you see the badness of a political system not only in what 
 it does to foreign peoples, but also what it does to its own people.  The 
 real evil of the British political system can be seen in what it imposes 
 upon it own people; a necessary consequence of this evil is that it is 
 bound to act evilly towards other nations.

	Part of the British political system is the upper chamber of
government, the House of Lords. That is an upper chamber of government 
consisting of about a thousand rich land owners.  They have almost the
final word on what shall be the law of Britain and what shall not. The final
word rests with the unelected and hereditary monarch.  The House of Lords is
also the final court of appeal for any citizen who is aggrieved and has gone
through all the other courts within the British system.

	In the British judicial system the highest court of appeal is not 
some body of lawyers elected by the people, or even appointed by the 
government, but a house of a thousand rich landowners elected and appointed 
by nobody.  There is no way an Irish democrat can reconcile himself to such 
a primitive system.  Either the British aristocratic, undemocratic system 
changes or we must get out of it.

	Nor is there any way an Irish democrat can agree to a State church, 
as in England and Scotland under the British system.  Under this system, in 
England, bishops are appointed by the Prime Minister and the Queen.  Apart 
from the fact that the Prime Minister may be an agnostic and often has been, 
the principle of having one's church leaders appointed by the state is not 
acceptable to Irish democrats, who when they had the chance to do so, made 
sure that Church and State were separated under the Irish Constitution made 
for 26 of Ireland's 32 counties in 1937.

	We in the north of Ireland find ourselves then forced to live 
within a system which is not democratic and indeed which contains 
institutions of government which no modern democrat would accept.  The 
Americans would not accept such institution, neither would the French or 
the Italians or the Germans.  The Irish cannot and will not accept them 
either.  They can be held within such a system only by force of arms.  That 
is what is happening in the north of Ireland now.

	Can Americans understand the logic of our argument? Their own history 
should make it easy for them to understand.

	It is not just that the British government has behaved brutally in 
Ireland.  It has, and continues to do so, but that is not the root of the 
problem. The problem is that the British government, being the primitive 
kind of government it is, could not behave towards an emerging democratic 
people any way - other than brutally.

What we are saying to the English is simple: Do what you like within your own
country, impose upon your own people a form of government which is the most
primitive in the European Community, but do not impose such things upon us,
because our standards of democracy demand something more advanced and more
acceptable to modern ideas of how people would govern themselves.

	It would surprise us if Americans really believe we should live 
under a system like that, when Americans have made very sure not to live 
under it themselves.  They refused it for the same reasons we refuse it.  
It is a halter round our necks, kind of English choke chain which people 
try to persuade us is good for us.  A choke chain may be good if you are 
training dogs.  It is an instrument of slavery if you are governing people."

                              [End of Part I]

re: .45

    <In the absence of justice from the British system (alleged), why
    <is there not more use of theCourt of Human Rights?

I'm afraid your Brit propaganda machine has it all sewed up, Colin. Read on.

          From "Against Violence In Ireland" by Fr. Desmond Wilson (Part II)


	"Many Americans have never allowed themselves to see what the real 
issues in Ireland are.  Can we then break through the "paper curtain" which 
British information services have put up between us?  Can we present our 
argument to Americans in such a way as to show them that it is logical and 
democratic and that what is at stake is not only the well-being of Irish 
people, but the progress, or failure, of European democracy to advance any 
further than it was fifty years ago?  The British government is the most 
formidable obstacle to the development of democracy in Europe.

	On a visit to the offices of Helsinki Watch, [Ed. note: a human rights
organization that monitors human/civil rights, gov. abuses to same, etc.]
we found a remarkable state of affairs.  As long as we were talking about
Ireland in general terms, talking about prisoners, or about countries where
everyone recognizes there is a lack of democracy, all was well.  But as soon
as the conversation turned upon a direct criticism of the British government
and its regime in Ireland the atmosphere changed.  Immediately, without any 
reason and with no mention having previously made of any political party in 
Ireland, the person in charge asked us, Are you members of the IRA?  There 
is such a craven fear of questioning or criticising the British government 
that it is assumed that the only people with the nerve to do it are the 
IRA.  All others, it would seem, have been successfully intimidated into 
silence,  They neither challenge not even ask what the British government 
is doing in Ireland.  

	It seems as though the British propaganda machine has successfully 
stopped rational argument of discussion about Irish affairs.  This they 
have found fairly simple, because for example, radio and television 
interviewers play the game for them.  They will ask irrelevant questions in 
the middle of a rational conversation about the situation in Ireland: "Are 
you in favour of the IRA, are you a marxist, is anybody else a marxist, or 
have you come to America to collect money?"

	There is one way to overcome the strangle-hold which British 
propaganda has on people's minds.  That is to encourage them to study what 
the British system of government is really like and what it does to its own 
people.  And to study therefore, the real reasons why we as Irish democrats 
cannot agree to such a system of government in Ireland."

    
    
      re: .45
    
      Colin,
    
         I made some calls last night and no one had heard of a list
    either.  The people I talked to knew of, and appreciated all the work
    done by the people in England.  
    
      What they also said is that there has been absolutely no effort on 
    anyone's part to drive the focus to the judicial system in total.   
    
    What that means is that there is no effort to look at cases in Northern 
    Ireland that have the same stench about them as did the B6 and the likes. 
     
    Oh don't read that to mean there is no effort to raise awareness to
    the injustices of the legal system in NI it means there is minimal
    effort in England to do that.
    
     What has to happen (I think) is that there has to be a groundswell from 
    the public that ignites a fire like there has never been before.  
     
    Something like we had in the US during the Viet Nam era.  
    
    But, I think that would be impossible due to the fact that people 
    do not have freedom of speech we in the US take for granted.
    
      
    
    I predict that when the investigation is completed  no individual will
    be held accountable for this travesty of justice.  That is, unless there
    is some tremendous public pressure brought to bear
    
       To address your point on the Court of Human Rights.  HMG has snubbed
    her nose at any action or complaint issued that is contrary to her best
    interest or normal mode of operation....  
    
    
    paddy

    863.48

    George - agreed!

    Would you mind conducting a poll in California to see what the citizens
    think of LAPD. Are they fed-up to the core with the rotten stinking lot
    of police officers? I don't think so. Maybe they have the highest regard
    for LAPD and just want to correct this specific situation! Does this
    sound familiar?

    863.49

    >Isn't it time for "all" participants in this conflict to get around a
    >table and hammer out an agreement so that we can all live under fair
    >and equitable systems of justice and policing?    -Dermot

    Dermot - Isn't this EXACTLY what Peter Brookes is doing with his new
    initiative? Does this kind of positive/constructive initiative get any
    media time in the US? Would it have the support of rational people?

    863.few_last

    Joe - you are still reading books/material which ONLY support your own
    bigoted and incorrect views. For whom does Fr Desmond Wilson speak? If
    the British political system in NI is so corrupt (btw I don't believe
    it is 'perfect'...) then how come the official political parties have
    such a low following? How come the few elected Sinn Fein MPs refuse to
    take their seats in Parliament? It doesn't add up. 
    Also he talks about the bad conditions under which we Brits live. 
    I'm quite happy here thankyou very much. 
    I'm also quite happy to live peacefully under a labour government from
    time to time when our system collapses and they manage to get into power!
    Reading your book extract I get the distinct feeling that Fr Wilson is
    very definitely part of the problem not the solution.

    Out of interest I read 784.1 (and all the replies)
    I wish I had said that.

    Joe, I am deeply concerned at your biassed and incomplete education. I
    am sending you, at my own considerable expense, I recent biography of
    Her Majesty the Queen Mother for your edification.

    Someone asked, in a recent reply, how to influence HMG to take note of
    their feelings and urge HMG to permanently resolve the NI situation.
    Easy - write to Peter Brookes at the Northen Ireland Office, Belfast.
    He is working the issue on behalf of all rational people, everywhere.

    Ian

    re .53
    
     Actually, people in Los Angeles and elsewhere in the country are
    DAMNED ANGRY with the LAPD for the beating incident, justifiably so.
    And there WILL be action taken, including the prosecution of the
    officers involved.
    
     Think anything like that will happen in the Birmingham Six case?
    
                                 Dream on.
    
    Frank
    

    
    >.52
    
    
    
    I don't now alot about Peter Brookes new inititive and haven't heard
    the full story. Sounds good if he is suggesting that all participants
    are getting to-gether for talks. Does this include Sinn fein and the
    UDA as well ?. I had always hoped that something like this would have
    to happen. I could never see the point in banning any groups from
    "talks"...or setting preconditions before talks. Lets see what
    everybody envisages for a peaceful solution... 
    
    
    Mick
    
    
    
    
    
    

    
    
    	The new inititive will be refered to as the "Culbert Principals" :-)
    
    
    
    	keVin
    
    
    

    
     Well, Kivin, the SOAPBOX, or at least the NI note, has been ALOT
    quieter since the 6 were released.  One side in the "debate" seems
    to have faded (or crawled as the case may be) away.
    
     Nothin' like REALITY to add a little tone to a discussion.  8-)
    
    Frank
    

    
    re:  .53
    
       Ian,
    
       Some of us have written to the NIO many, many times encouraging the
    peaceful and political resolution in Northern Ireland.  I just counted
    my separate correspondences and they number 12.  How many do you have? 
    It takes more than just a few people to write and attempt to influence the
    direction of events as I said it will take a groundswell.  
    
    You said that Mr Brooke has initiated talks with all parties looking
    for a resolution.  I commend such efforts but I think it will be doomed
    for failure if ALL parites are not involved.  Specifically I mean the
    IRA, UDA, and whatever fringe group Ian Pasiley (sp) controls.  Unless
    this happens there is no hope for settlement. 
    
    The only time the effort is in the media is when there is another failed 
    attempt to get it off the ground and then it's a five line article.  
    
    Ian Paisley gets more coverage here due to his deep hatred for the Catholic
    people.  I went to one of his revival meetings in the states.  He clearly 
    and truely believes Catholics are evil and do not deserve to live on this 
    earth.  A very dangerous fella for sure. 
    
    I have heard tough that Mr. Brooke and Gerry Adams are having exchanges 
    via the press which is at least an attempt on both their parts to start 
    talking.  And I'll add it is very positive.  I have also spoken to many 
    people that don't trust the efforts due to past history on the part of NIO
    with broken promises.
    
    paddy 
    
    ps   you had mentioned in .46 that uncorroborated "confessions" are no
    longer admissible in court.  I think they still are.  And if they
    aren't does HMG have any intention of going back and reviewing the
    cases that had used this as sole evidence?
    
    

re: .53

<Someone asked...how to influence HMG to take note of their feelings and urge
<HMG to permanently resolve the NI situation. 
<Easy - write to Peter Brooke ... He is working the issue on behalf of all
<rational people, everywhere.

   Ian, 

    I swear, the stuff your write is enough to gag a maggot it's so
sickening. Brooke is only "having Talks about having Talks." He, and the
Brit government have absolutely NO INTENTION of ever resolving this issue
(NI), because of the "Hidden Agenda" HMG has planned for NI. (Hmmm,
'hidden agenda', what a great name for a movie about Britain's Shoot to Kill
policies, as uncovered by, say, John Stalker.)

   It is interesting to note that Fr. Desmond Wilson also has serious
reservations about the real "good-will" and intent of the British government
to see a peaceful solution to the problem - having seen their "initiatives"
many times over the last 25 years in West Belfast. 

   Below is his view of why seemingly any effort is deliberately designed to 
fail. From his booklet entitled, "Against Violence In Ireland"


      "In other words, a solution in the north of Ireland could create
a constitutional crisis in Britain which would be very damaging for th British
government. What they will do, however, is create so-called "initiatives"
in N. Ireland which they know will not succeed and which, indeed, must not
be allowed to succeed. So the British government goes through the motions
every three years or so and produces a plan for N. Ireland.

   The plan is always a variation of the one plan which people in Ireland do
not want.

   In Ireland, many people have suggested solutions to the problem: a United
Ireland, Independent Ulster, a Federated Ireland with two states, Federated
Ireland with four states, integration with England, Scotland and Wales, a
return of the old Stormont form of government. Not one of those proposals is
ever placed on the table for discussion. The one proposal placed on the table
for discussion is the solution proposed by nobody but except the Westminster
government itself; namely continued control of the north of Ireland by the
London government with some form of shared power which will ensure that irish
nationalists will never have a chance to form a government, or be an effective
part of government even in their own country.

   The one solution which the British government will allow us to discuss is
the solution proposed only by itself. Any colour you like, so long as its
black. But, the British government knows that neither Irish democrats, nor
pro-British elements in Ireland will accept this "solution". Every initiative
then, must fail, and is meant to fail. If a democratic form of government were
given in the north of Ireland, there would be a constitutional crisis in
Britian. English politicians see that in the end, Scotland and Wales would be
agitated and eventually secede.

   The British government would have other dificulties too, if they decided to
act honourably in Ireland. There are powerful forces within the British system
which would work to thwart it. An example occurred in 1974. In 1974, the
London government set up in the north of Ireland what was known as a
"power sharing executive, " an arrangement by which power in government would
be shared between catholics and protestants, nationalists and unionists -
nationalists of course, always being in the minority. The arrangement, a
slight step towards some kind of equity, seemed to be succeeding when
suddenly, a strike occurred, a strike engineered by loyalists, supporters of
the British government.

   The government version of that event is that this strike by loyalists
brought down the power sharing executive and destroyed the British initiative.
A comparatively few loyalists, badly organized and heavily infiltrated
by the British forces, are said to have broken the executive. 

   What actually happened was that, at the time, the British Army suddenly
became unavailable to the British government to carry out the government's
wishes. Even though the british Army had the men, the expertise, and the
firepower to control the situation in Northern Ireland quite easily,
they made themselves "unavailable" to the British government. The London
government had made a decision about what kind of government there should be
in the north of Ireland, and because the British Army did not approve of it,
the army was not available to enforce that decision. 

   Needless to say, in 1974 when the British Army made itself unavailable to
the London government we recalled a previous event in our history - 1912,
the infamous "Curragh mutiny". On that occasion, the British Army decided that
it would not be available to carry out the decisions of its own government.
What we were seeing in 1974 was a re-run of what happened in 1912.

   If then, you hear Irish democrats saying that United Nations troops should
come into the north of Ireland, the reason is that no matter what arrangement
the London government would make, especially if it were liberal and useful,
our experience shows that the British Army will not be available to carry it
out.

   Like so many other arguements against the policies of the British
government in Ireland, this is an arguement of inescapable logic: If you have
an army in the situation, it must be one you can trust. The British Army
cannot be trusted; another, perhaps the United Nations, must be brought in.

   It is not that the British Army is dishonest - it is, but that is not the
reason. It is not that the British Army is brutal - it is, but that is not the
reason. The reason is that if the British government were to make any
agreement about Ireland which was liberal and generous, the British Army would
not only refuse to support it, but would obstruct it.

   The efforts of the London government to cloud the issues and to prevent a
peaceful solution have to be countered in the USA and elsewhere. Every
intellectual and moral arguement must be used in order to remove the medieval
and undemocratic British government from Ireland and to construct a modern
democracy in Ireland according to our own needs and wishes."

re: .53

<Joe, I am deeply concerned at your biassed and incomplete education. 

   Ian,

     *MY* biased and incomplete education???? For someone who's never been to
the north of Ireland, your patronizing statement (above) is just so much
more proof of your profound ignorance, and one more reason not to continue
discussing the north of Ireland with you. In order to come up to my level,
why don't you go to NI and see first-hand, as I have done, the horrible,
homicidal mess your government fosters and perpetuates there. (aside:
Or, I could come down to your level by having a lobotomy done to myself.
Then we could start equal!) Please Ian, no more patronizing statements
or attitude, at least not until you've seen NI first-hand, OK?

<I am sending you, at my own considerable expense, I recent biography of Her
<Magesty the Queen Mother for your edification.

     Thanks Ian, you're so kind, but really, you didn't have to do that.
(Could it not have been sent by inter-office mail, or is that not 'kosher'?)
I shall reciprocate: I shall send you a copy of a great book about NI,
and HMG involvement there. Its called, "Ballymurphy And The Irish War"
 - I'm sure it will open your eyes.
    In turn I shall forward an article about another member of the royal
family. And as you wrote in .53, " I wish I had said that", so do I wish 
that I could have written the following article (below).  


                         SPARE ME, YOU ROYALISTS

                           by Mike Barnicle
                         (Boston Globe 4/12/88)                 


	Off the editorial reaction to Joe Kennedy's trip last week to 
Ireland you'd think he had urinated on the queen's slippers with her in 
them.  All he did was tell a bit of the truth.

	As a result, he was stomped on by British papers located in 
London as well as by a British paper located in Boston and run from New 
York by R. Murdoch, who would do absolutely anything to get a wave or a 
nod of recognition from Prince Charles, the world's best-dressed welfare 
client. Some people are easy.

	The British propaganda mill went into overdrive against Kennedy 
because of an exchange he had with one of the occupation troops in 
Northern Ireland.  Soldiers stopped a car Kennedy was in to search it for 
explosives, an event as common there as mist.  An argument began when 
Kennedy asked the soldier not to employ the F-word with a priest present.  
The trooper suggested that Kennedy go back to his own country so the 
congressman said:  "Why don't you go back to yours."

	That is really a statement, not a question.  And it's a statement 
more and more people who are the slightest bit interested in the peace, 
security and future of all of Ireland have been - or ought to be - making 
more often.  

	But it caused great offense among the Royal Cheerleader squad.  
If England gives up the north of Ireland, the empire would be reduced to 
a couple of cold, stone houses with ancient heating systems, a few sets 
of bone china and some faded pictures of the Queen-Mum with a glass in 
her hand.

	Well, good Lord, what would young Chuck's future be then?  You 
think he wants to end up hanging around the castle all day and jamming 
with Diana over her clothing allowance?

	What would he do if he couldn't some day play the King game?  The 
poor guy is barely potty-trained.  He sure couldn't go out and get honest 
work because he doesn't even have a last name.

	It's a struggle for him to do his present job.  Here's his daily 
schedule:  1. Wake up.  2. Draw a breath.  3. Put on some ludicrous 
costume.  4. Nod and pose.  5. Have a biscuit.  6. Go back to bed.  He 
makes Reagan look like a workaholic.

	Now, by uttering something Irish-American politicians should have 
been saying for years, Joe Kennedy upset the natural course of things.  
The American government must never point to the truth when it comes to 
Northern Ireland.  

	And the truth is that the British Army is today the principal 
source and cause of violence in that sad land.  Take them out of the 
picture and the IRA's recruitment efforts would stumble and falter.

	For years, the English have condoned, championed and accepted 
military death squads run by London with Margaret Thatcher's knowledge 
and acquiesence.  If Ireland had sand dunes like the Middle East, or palm 
trees like Central America, liberals everywhere would be shrieking in 
anguish over its blood-soaked politics.  

	What do you think the reaction would have been if Joe Kennedy had 
traveled to Afghanistan andd suggested to a Russian soldier that he go 
back to Moscow and soak his head in hot vodka?  What would the editorial 
writers have written had he attacked the gunmen of the PLO - one more 
army - or the assassins who stalk Nicaragua or El Salvador?

	All the big thinkers break out in hives when our soldiers go to 
Honduras.  People start tearing their hair out and screaming, "Oh, no, 
another Vietnam."

	But whenever Northern Ireland pops up on the screen, the cop-out 
is that it's merely another religious war; those hump-Irish, the 
Catholics against the Protestants, and who cares?  
	
	Ignored always is England's brutal and vicious scorched-earth 
history in that country.  Over the years, a series of prime ministers and 
dozens of parliaments have attempted to starve the people, steal their 
language, jail or kill their leaders, destroy any educational system, 
make their economy completely dependent on England and their future 
nonexistent.  

	Ireland does not need more martyrs.  It needs more people who are 
unafraid to tell this shrew, this Thatcher woman, that it's wrong, 
incredibly counterproductive and unbelievably foolish to keep on trying 
to put out a fire with gasoline.  

	Yet, give them their due, the English are champions when it comes 
to peddling their propaganda.  For decades, they have cowed the Congress 
and the vast majority of the Irish here into thinking both British 
soldiers and government are peackeepers.  

	Well, they're not.  They are occupation forces, clinging to the 
last vestiges of an empire that London politicians, simply out of false 
pride, refuse to relinquish a grip on.

	Joe Kennedy just stated the obvious.  That's because, unlike a 
lot of the other Irish in America, he has no desire to be knighted as 
footman to the Queen.  


                               **********

    Paddy, I think you seem to be under the the impression that I wrote
    a note about a "list" of potential cases for review.  My first note
    merely indicated that a few papers printed articles listing a few
    cases that would be potential candidates for review.  My question
    about the Court of Human Rights was simply a question.  I did
    NOT know why more use was not made of this court, and I thought that
    you would be able to give me an answer.  From the reply, I take it
    that you see no value in using that system of justice either, although
    I seem to recall it was a very effective way of exposing and
    embarrassing the British Govt over the forms of torture cited by Joe.
    
    Joe, until you agree to communicate like a human being I will simply
    pass by your notes.  If you want to get people to listen to what you
    have to say, there's a minimum level of courtesy required.
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin
    
    
    

    
    Colin,
    
       I was just trying to get some clarification on the list ar activity
    in that direction.  I was then going to try to get the source so I
    could write them about a situation I am aware of.  No way can I express
    how much I appreciate any and all help I get in my endevor.  When I
    answer a question it sometimes comes out differently than what I mean.
    That is a shortcoming of this mode of communication at least for me
    that is. 
    
      I guess I value the Court of Human Rights and I didn't mean to imply
    otherwise.  My problem is again HMG basically ignores them which leads
    me to believe that the effort falls on deaf ears.
    
      It would be much easier to sit down and discuss this over a pint.
    
    paddy
    

    re: .61
    
     Well, this is a *new* excuse from a Brit on how not to find out about NI. 
So far, in the past I've found the following to be how most Brits, when 
confronted with the truth about NI handle the situation:
 
    1.) Fein ignorance. Don't have the foggiest idea about NI, (or where it 
        is  even located for that fact).
    2.) Assault the inquirer with name-calling, immediately charge the
        questioner of being a 'terrorist' or supporter thereof, or attack
        their inquirer with innuendo about some nonsense such as their
        race or sexual preference.
    3.) Throw out red herrings, DIS-information, rathole the discussion
        with inane comparisons, or pursuit of a nit.
    4.) Start talking gibberish.

 Colin, perhaps when Brits start *acting* like human beings in NI, one might
treat them as such. 

Ah, but since you've found a new excuse (clever, I might add, Colin, esp. 
after 784.1) not to face the truth, why don't you just put you head back in 
the sand, OK? 

And don't forget to tighten your mask. It did slip you know.

Ta-ta.      

>                     <<< Note 863.63 by WREATH::DROTTER >>>
>                         -< Just another Know-nuthin. >-

> Colin, perhaps when Brits start *acting* like human beings in NI, one might
>treat them as such. 

It's pretty unbelievable calling the British inhuman when the Irish are doing
this: 

From VNS 22-Mar-91:

    The IRA have admitted responsibility for shooting a woman in her car
    yesterday. The woman worked in adminstration for the security forces.
    Her husband, a policeman, was killed by the IRA 4 years ago.

    Joe,
    
    For many years, Northern Ireland was part of the North UK District as
    far as Digital was concerned - no political aspirations, simply an issue
    of critical mass and Digital European development. As a Field
    Support Engineer at that time, ie 1975-1981, I made weekly trips to NI.
    Today, our Country Support group still makes frequent trips there. I
    believe I do know where NI is thank-you. Because of the troubles, many
    NI people and families have moved over to UK and work and live
    alongside me. I believe I do listen to them and their stories about NI.
    There are few English families that have not suffered
    sons/fathers/husbands/friends killed or injured in NI.
    
    I remember well the visit by Joe Kennedy to NI, surrounded as he was by
    his entourage of cameramen/media types. There is no doubt at all that
    he went there to initiate confrontations and bolster his political support
    in the Republic of South Boston. I will refrain from dragging the
    Kennedy family's activities into this debate on the basis that it is
    counterproductive. You know what I mean.
    
    Your article attacking Prince Charles is ludicrous and only serves to
    reinforce my point that you are besotted with your blind ignorance.
    Under our constitution, the Royal Family cannot get direcly involved in
    political/social matters but they can leverage influence and lead by
    example. Prince Charles is highly effective in this regard. Your attacks
    on our Royalty is merely an expression of your national immaturity.
    After all you are only 300 years old. You perhaps need to treble that
    before you learn to live with other peoples/cultures/systems/etc. All
    of the problems that you had with King George_III remain with you today, 
    ie taxation, foreign wars, social injustice (Did you ever read the
    National Geographic article on the folks in South Georgia). You have
    simply changed the name of your system. Before you drag us down another
    rathole (I suspect the rats would object to your presence) let me say
    this is not an anti-USA sentiment. I have also lived in USA for 1 year.
    Simply that your notions are invalid, your information false, your
    hatred is psychotic and your desire to change our UK system arrogant.
    
    I will leave this conference now, not for any of the reasons you
    outlined in your previous note. Simply that it is counterproductive to
    my own time and to Digital's time; also because many people read these
    notes without contributing articles and your diatribes are destructive
    and hurtful to many people.
    
    I do wish you would seek the medical help that you so urgently require.
    
    Ian
    

    re .65
    
     Sorry, old sport, you know not whence ye speak and apparently you're
    under some quite false impressions about both Barnicle's article and
    the circumstances surrounding Joe Kennedy's encounter with the troop
    at the checkpoint.  Barnicle didn't imply Charlie was in any way
    RESPONSIBLE for anything political, in the north or elsewhere.  His
    comments in that regard were a humorous swipe at British royalty,
    nothing more.  And the incident with Joe K was incited by the troop
    at the border.  Or would you not have objections to clergy of your
    own denomination sworn at and scorned?
    
     To steal a phrase...'Try and keep up'.
    
    Frank
    

    >> Barnicle didn't imply Charlie was in any way RESPONSIBLE for anything 
    >> political, in the north or elsewhere.  His comments in that regard 
    >> were a humorous swipe at British royalty, nothing more.
    
	But Frank, Joe doesn't present these "humorous" articles as a joke.
    	He holds them up as doctrine to support his anti-British venom. If
    	in fact he uses jokey articles to support his claims then it only
    	strenthens my case. (ie he has no real case).
    
    	Ian
        

    re: Ian
    
    Peter Brooke has just got agreement from the Unionists to participate
    in talks with the other political parties, which includes the British
    and Irish governments.  This now means that all parties to the conflict
    with  the exception of Sinn Fein and the paramilitaries are at least 
    talking to each other and as such it has to be viewed as good news. 
    But there is still some way to go, not least in bringing about a
    cessation of hostilities.  
    
    -Dermot  

    re: Dermot
    
    	Yes, All political parties (interviewed on last night's news)
    	regarded it as very good news. First time I've seen all the
    	politicians agree about ANYTHING for a long time. I see real hope.
    
    	Do you know why Sinn Fein were excluded, out of interest? Was that
    	their choice or Peter Brooke's decision?
    
    Ian
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

    I cant believe what I'm reading in this note! I've lived on the Falls
    Road in Belfast for most of my life now and rarely have I heard such
    biased viewpoints.
    Never mind talking about who did what to who so many years ago, it all 
    basically boils down to money. If the economy in Eire was better than
    the British economy, Northern Ireland would vote to become part of Eire
    quicker than you could say "Referendum"!
    
                           Cheers,
                                 Gerry.
    
     

    
     Gerry, the fact that it's all economic is something I've been trying
    to get people to understand for eons.
    
     Those who are at all knowledgeable about the situation are aware of
    that.  Those who are unaware, whose anger blinds or whose self-interest 
    is at stake, however, will refuse to see it in those terms, and will
    continue to harp on history or religious hatred.
    
    Thanks
    
    Frank
    

    
    re:  .70
    
        Gerry,
    
           Good day and welcome.  Do you think the issues of divorce,
    contraception, employment, and integrated schooling has merit?
    
           I am  aware of the economic situation. But I believe the
    above mentioned issues will affect who does what when.
    
    
           paddy

    
     Oh thanks alot, Paddy...make me look bad.  :-)
    
     Methinks it's MONEY that makes the world go 'round.