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Conference rusure::math

Title:Mathematics at DEC
Moderator:RUSURE::EDP
Created:Mon Feb 03 1986
Last Modified:Fri Jun 06 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:2083
Total number of notes:14613

442.0. "Falling ladder" by CLT::GILBERT (Juggler of Noterdom) Wed Feb 12 1986 05:12

Here's a fun problem:

	A ladder of length L is upright against a wall.  The bottom
	of the ladder is pulled away from the wall at velocity V.

	What is the velocity of the *top* of the ladder when it's
	at height L/2?  What is it's velocity as it hits the ground?
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442.1How do you getit started?METOO::YARBROUGHWed Feb 12 1986 13:136
    Hmm. The problem is not very well specified. As stated, the bottom
    of the ladder experiences an infinite acceleration in order to attain
    an instantaneous velocity of V. This will tend to separate the top
    of the ladder from the bottom. Also vaporize the ladder. In these
    conditions it is not clear that the top will come down at all.
    
442.2nitsCLT::GILBERTJuggler of NoterdomWed Feb 12 1986 20:398
Okay:
   	A ladder of length L is nearly upright, leaning against a wall.
	The bottom of the ladder is being pulled away from the wall at
	velocity V.

As before:
	What is the velocity of the *top* of the ladder when it's
	at height L/2?  What is it's velocity as it hits the ground?
442.3If Einstein were a noterLATOUR::APPELLOFCarl J. AppellofThu Feb 13 1986 10:443
    How close is the velocity V to the speed of light?  Must we include
    relativistic effects here?
    
442.4It's still not well specifiedMETOO::YARBROUGHThu Feb 13 1986 13:116
    Aside from relativistic effects, this is really a nasty problem.
    Long objects which fall over tend to bend; this is why smokestacks
    usually break when pushed over. You also need to know how large
    V is w/r/t the length of the ladder in order to determine if the
    ladder will remain in contact with the wall as it descends. So there
    are still a lot of undefined assumptions in the problem statement.
442.5CLT::GILBERTJuggler of NoterdomThu Feb 13 1986 14:541
Well, I guess nobody's willing to do any real work on this.
442.6A StartBEING::POSTPISCHILAlways mount a scratch monkey.Thu Feb 13 1986 20:2325
    I've looked at the problem.  Some partial results follow.
    
    When the ladder is at an angle O from the ground, the bottom of the
    ladder is traveling at a velocity of V cos O in a direction parallel to
    the ladder and V sin O in a direction normal to the ladder.  Assuming
    the ladder to be a rigid body, the top of the ladder must also be
    traveling at a velocity of V cos O in the direction parallel to the
    ladder.  However, its normal component is unknown. 
    
    The above includes the assumption that the bottom of the ladder remains
    on the ground.  I have not yet figured out under what circumstances
    this is true.
    
    If we knew how much energy the ladder had, it would be simple to
    determine the last component of the ladder's velocity.  However, energy
    may be added or removed by three things, the force which causes the
    bottom of the ladder to move at velocity V, the force on the ladder
    from the ground, and the force on the ladder from the wall.  One might
    assume these last two forces to do no work on the ladder, since the
    ladder does not move because of them, but that is not necessarily true
    -- even though the end of the ladder touching the wall/ground does not
    move, the rest of the ladder is affected by these forces. 
    
    
    				-- edp
442.7Rotational EnergyLYRA::THALLERKurt (Tex) ThallerThu Feb 13 1986 22:223
    Be very careful if you try to solve this problem using energy. 
    You must be certain to include rotational energy the ladder acquires
    when it is falling.
442.8Smokestacks break predictablyLATOUR::AMARTINAlan H. MartinFri Feb 14 1986 05:1212
Re .4:

Prove:

	A smokestack always breaks apart at the point 1/3rd of the way
up from the bottom when it is dynamited, and starts tipping over.

Sounds under-specified?  Someone noticed this from inspecting photos
and films of falling smokestacks, and it was proved in some place like
the Amateur Scientist or Mathematical Games section of Scientific American.
(Does this ring a bell with someone?).
				/AHM
442.9CLT::GILBERTJuggler of NoterdomWed Feb 19 1986 04:3527
442.10HintBEING::POSTPISCHILAlways mount a scratch monkey.Thu Feb 27 1986 20:206
    How about considering the rotational position, velocity, and
    acceleration of the ladder around the bottom of the ladder?  With
    that focus, there would be only one force to consider:  gravity.
    
    
    				-- edp