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Conference rusure::math

Title:Mathematics at DEC
Moderator:RUSURE::EDP
Created:Mon Feb 03 1986
Last Modified:Fri Jun 06 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:2083
Total number of notes:14613

376.0. "Americans scarce in math school" by SUPER::MATTHEWS () Tue Nov 12 1985 22:31

Excerpted from "Americans Scarce in Math Grad Schools," 
Science, 15 November 1985

...Americans are now in the minority in many mathematics graduate departments.
The proportion of foreign mathematics graduate students at American
universities is unknown, but anecdotal evidence suggests that the more elite
the math graduate school, the fewer Americans attend it... Yale has 21 new math
graduate students this year. Five are Americans. New York University's
Courant Institute has five Americans among its 25 graduate students with
financial support... Last year, 55 percent of the mathematics Ph.D.'s awarded
in this country were given to Americans. In 1979 to 1980, 73 percent of the
math Ph.D.'s went to Americans...

One popular hypothesis is that mathematically talented Americans choose
not to get Ph.D.'s because they can make money in other fields. Academic
salaries for mathematicians dropped 20 percent in real dollars from 1970
to 1985... Other hypotheses are that because mathematics teaching in elementary
and secondary schools is so poor, many potential students are never really
introduced to mathematics. They never see any interesting mathematical work.
Or perhaps, some mathematicians propose, students turn away from mathematics
because other fields, such as molecular biology and elementary particle
physics, seem much more dynamic...

No matter what the explanation, however, it seems clear to both academic
and industrial mathematicians that the situation is of real concern. There
is a shortage of mathematicians in this country which is expected to get
even worse in the next 5 years as the mass of mathematicians who entered
the field in the Sputnik era retire. About one-half of the foreign students
return home immediately after getting their Ph.D.'s... The Department of
Defense will also be affected, because many of the foreign mathematicians
will not be able to get clearances...

One of the more intriguing suggestions is from [Yale math department chairman
Richard] Beals. He was recently at a meeting in Albany where, at dinner,
eitht mathematicians were discussing the lack of American graduate students
and what to do about it. Each in turn told how he had gotten interested
in the field and, without exception, there had been a specific teacher of
course that first sparked each one's interest. But, says Beals, "the kind
of course was exactly the kind of abstract and rigorous course that turns
most people off. So perhaps one way to get mathematicians is to give such
a rigorous course. The students who float to the top will be confirmed as
mathematicians."
T.RTitleUserPersonal
Name
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376.1LATOUR::APPELLOFWed Nov 13 1985 10:598
I had a math teacher who really sparked my interest in high school.
He ended up leaving his religious order (and the high school) to become
a computer programmer.  It paid more money and was less frustrating.

Are any of us in this notes file professional mathematicians?

(a chemist sucked in by computers)

376.2KOBAL::YARBROUGHWed Nov 13 1985 11:469
Yes, I was trained as a mathematician (BA and MS degrees in math) and got
hooked on computers in grad school at the U of Ill. I also got into math
as a result of early stimulation. The geometry problem I posed in these
notes earlier was actually the focal point of my fascination, which happened
in Jr High School (would you believe 40 years ago?). My only regret about
DEC is that there are so few opportunities to use my mathematical training.
This notes file is a real outlet for me.

Lynn Yarbrough
376.3AURORA::HALLYBThu Nov 14 1985 19:0214
I got hooked on math in the fifth grade, owing mostly to Jerome Meyer's book
_Fun With Mathematics_.  I got a BA and MS in Math and qualified for the Ph. D.
program but turned to Computer Science instead.  My own reasoning was that
I disliked applied math, but about all you can do with the rest is teach.  
(There are exceptions but they are of measure zero so we can ignore them).
Personally I didn't relish the thought of teaching and doing research in a
highly political publish-or-perish atmosphere.  I wanted to work where you
were -- objectively -- measured and rewarded for producing tangible results.

In a way it's good that we get so many foreign students, especially if such a
large number of them remain.  It speaks well of our country and serves to
further our national interest.

  John
376.4RANI::LEICHTERJSat Nov 16 1985 20:5451
I'm another math "ABD" (All But Dissertation) - AB and MA, but I never found
a good thesis topic and gradually lost interest.  Turned to programming as a
way to turn a pastime into a way to make a living.

My interest in math developed gradually over a number of years.  There is one
8th grade teacher I particularly remember as inspiring my interest, but it
was there before - my earliest mathematical memory is, having learned how to
do "long addition" and single-digit multiplication, sitting at a my father's
desk one afternoon trying to figure out how to do multi-digit multiplication.
(I failed.)  I also re-discovered Gauss's method for summing consecutive
numbers, having heard the story somewhere or other.

My interest was in (generic) "science", gradually concentrating on math and
physics.  A big push toward math was a summer spent at an NSF program in
New Hampshire.  (The program later moved to Hampshire college, where I
believe it continues to exist.  I suspect there are a number of Hampshire
(or New Hampshire) alumni reading this file - I know of at least 3 from
just my year who are now fairly big names in the theoretical CS community.)
There was also another NSF program, held Saturdays, at Columbia University;
I took both math and physics courses there.  (The infamous Richard Stallman
was a classmate.)  As an undergrad, I split my time between math and physics,
eventually discovering that I was a lot better at math - so that's where I
ended up.

Unfortunately, real math research turned out to be rather different from
the kind of problem solving that had attracted me to begin with.  The
rather dismal outlook for math teaching positions at the time (1976 or
so) was discouraging.  (The projections for the period in which I and my
cohorts would have been coming up for tenure were for negative growth in
positions - more people retiring than being replaced.)  Of the people I
knew, several have ended up in computer science, including at least 3 at
DEC, others became accountants, lawyers, you name it.  A couple even got
their degrees and, at last word, are teaching/doing research.

A couple of factors contribute to the decline in the number of Americans in
math grad schools.  Reacting to the same dismal projections mentioned above,
the good math departments sent out copies of reports on the situation to
all applicants, trying to discourage them.  This went on for several years,
and clearly had an effect.  At the same time, government funding for math
declined - a recent AMS study documents by how much.  It turns out that no one
really noticed the decline for a long time because NSF reports grouped math
with computer science, and computer science research went up dramatically
during the same period.  Finally, I think there is a large overlap between
children and college students potentially interested in math, and those
potentially interested in computer science.  These days, such people are
highly likely to go into computer science - more money, more prestige,
besides, it's much more exciting to a beginner.  (The Hampshire math program
these days does a lot of computer-related stuff.  When I was there, we had
limited access to a new toy - an ASR-33 connected to the then-new Dartmouth
time-shared BASIC system.)
							-- Jerry
376.5AJAX::CALLASSun Nov 17 1985 19:0221
I fell into math almost by accident. I hated math until I was in the 10th grade
and until that time I planned to be a musician. At that time I took geometry,
where I learned that not all math was drudge work (like arithmetic and algebra),
and I got a scientific calculator as a Christmas present. The calculator taught
me that even drudge work can be interesting if you can get a drudge to do it for
you while you think lofty thoughts about it. Math was actually sorta fun! 

Getting back to the subject of this note, why there are few Americans in math
graduate schools, when I graduated with my degree (B.S.) in math in 1980, I
asked one of my professors for advice. I had been doing math honors work in
mathematical logic, and was torn between accepting a job with a computer firm
and getting a Ph.D. in math. He told me, "When you're in logic, you really have
two career paths: you can either get a B.S. in math and then go work for a
computer company or you can get a Ph.D. and then go work for a computer company.
The disadvantage of having a Ph.D. is that you might end up pricing yourself out
of the market." A few others tried to impress me with the difficulty of getting
a position at a university and said things like, "Nowadays, there's nothing
wrong with going into industry." I'm not sure exactly what the remark meant (was
industry once a tawdry place to be?), but I passed on grad school. 

	Jon