Conference rocks::weight_control

    Are women so different from men?  Don't men eat for many of the
    same reasons?  I think you could substitute "people" for "women"
    in your review and have the same truth value.
    
    Jim is currently taking a course called "psych of women", and
    comes home almost daily stunned by what women think is "normal"
    for women.  Apparently there are FAR more self-esteem problems
    in women than in men.  I suspect that women and men simply show
    their lacks of self esteem differently, and that men are not
    willing to admit it.
    
    Perhaps the only way to get some info on this is to ask the
    readers of this conference to answer a few questions.  Feel
    free to add more when you think of them:
    
    1) How long have you had a weight problem?  Is this from childhood
    or did it start at some later point in your life?
    
    2) How do you think your weight has affected your life?
    	Your relationships with people?
    	"" with the opposite sex (or same sex, if that's your preference)?
    	Your schooling
    	Your job
    	Anything else
    
    3) How do *you* think of yourself?
    
    4) How do you think *others* think of you?
    
    5) What are your fears about staying overweight?
    
    6) What are your fears about becoming slim?

    7) Self analysis: why do you think *you* overeat?  (do any
    of the reasons from .0 apply?)
    
    --Louise
    (you can probably do fancy things with rep/extract or something
    to get the questions in your edit buffer).

    <1) How long ...> since childhood
    
    2) How do you think your weight has affected your life?
    	<Your relationships with people?> I chose people who seemed
    		less popular as friends, because I didn't think I
    		could "measure up" to the more popular prettier ones.
    		Actually, I'm glad I did this - they're great people.
    	<opposite sex > ditto - I started dating much later, also, and
    		put up with more garbage, due to lower self-esteem.
    	<Your schooling> I probably spent MORE energy on it, since I
    		depended on it for much of my self-worth.
    	<Your job> I ended up much less aggressive - put up with more.
    
    <3) How do *you* think of yourself?>  I still see a fat person in
    the mirror, even after losing about 38 lbs.  I still lack the
    confidence I'd like to have.  I still find myself telling myself
    "that's ok, it's only me."
    
    <4) How do you think *others* think of you?> I think they used to
    think of me as fat and perhaps incompetent - now, I'm readjusting
    very slowly.
    
    <5) What are your fears about staying overweight?> That I'd never
    change - that I'd stay stuck in the rut I was in - that I'd keep
    having health problems, and they'd get worse.
    
    <6) What are your fears about becoming slim?> Oh lordy, now I'll
    have to do some of those things I've been putting off, like getting
    the rest of my life in gear!  Being fat has been such an excuse
    for not doing things, or not being things.  If I'm "normal" I don't
    have an excuse!

    <7) Self analysis: why do you think *you* overeat?  (do any
    of the reasons from .0 apply?) > because:
	It tastes good
    	I'm bored or lonely
    	Everyone else is
    	it's easier than doing something else

    Ok, there's one statistical point.....

    
    re:.1  Are women so different from men?
    		I once read an article that started off "To guarantee
    slimness......be born a male."  This article was, of course,
    generalizing, but it went into the basic chemistry differences 
    between men and women.  How and why it is easier for men to lose
    weight or keep the weight off.
    Now for my poll input:
    
    1) How long? When I graduated from highschool I weighed 200lbs.
    	I am now 29.75 yrs old and weigh 140.  All my childhood years
    	I was overweight.  During my adult years I've gone up and down
    	like a yoyo.
    
    2) How has it affected my life?  I am shyer then I wish I was.
    	I have always been a sort of loner.  Not real comfortable at
    	parties.  I think it helped me advance at school and at work
    	for the same reason, I concentrated most of my efforts there.
    	But now I am concentrating more on exercise, still alone but
    	making me feel better about myself.
    
    3) How do I think about myself?  Still real negative, although I
    	know I have come along way.  I still see that blimp in the
    	mirror.
    
    4) How do others think about me?  I feel they see me as just another
    	average individual.  If I tell them I use to weigh 200lbs. they
    	are flabergasted.  If they get to know me they see the insecurties.
    
    5) What are my fears about staying overweight?  I won't have any
    	fun.  Won't live a normal life.  The heavier I am the more of
    	a recluse I am.
    
    6) What are my fears about being slim?  None what so ever....
    
    7) Why do I overeat?  I love food, I also love a good dry Cabernet.
    	I actually don't overeat that much anymore, I have changed
    	my eating habits alot over the years.  I just can't seem to
    	get rid of those thighs.
    

    1) How long have you had a weight problem?

    I started gaining weight when I went away to college, and was out from
    under the protective umbrella of my mother's low-calorie cooking.  I
    weighed 117 in high school.  I was able to diet back down during summer
    breaks, but then I stopped coming home for the summers.  My major
    accomplishments since then were:

    high of 145 to a low of 124, which I kept for a short period of time, until
    I had to find another job, and I stopped going to my health club and caring
    about my weight.

    high of 160 to a low of 145, which I attained when I was just separating
    from my ex-husband, and held until I started the single life and went out
    all the time for dinner and drinks, or stayed home and snacked.

    high of 155 to a low of 117.5, which I attained last January after turning
    my single life into a happy life with a special someone.  I am currently
    slightly above that low.

    2) How do you think your weight has affected your life?

    I don't think my weight has affected my life that much.  I have low self-
    esteem, but I don't think it has to do with my weight, or former weight.
    I never had any trouble finding friends or dates when I looked in the right
    places.

    3) How do *you* think of yourself?

    I still think of myself as weighing more than I'd like to.  I don't think
    I'm "fat" anymore, but am not happy with what the mirror shows me.

    4) How do you think *others* think of you?

    I think others perceive me as an "average" person, and certainly not as
    one with a weight problem (unless they know my history :-))

    5) What are your fears about staying overweight?

    I want to be happy with the way I look.  It makes me feel better to look
    better.  I want to be active without getting tired or having to maneuver
    excess weight.  I don't want to think "I have to lose weight" anymore!!!

    6) What are your fears about becoming slim?

    None.  My fears are that I will stay slim this time...

    7) Self analysis: why do you think *you* overeat?

    I don't think .0 reasons apply to me.  I overeat because I love the taste of
    food.  I eat when I'm not hungry because I'm bored, or because the food
    is there, and because I love eating.

(I'm not feeling creative enough to add my own questions and answers now)

Jill

    It's interesting to think about fat being a "feminist" issue.  I
    think the connection comes from the fact that many women feel judged
    primarily by their appearance by an appearance-conscious society.
    Certainly men who are appearance conscious can have inferiority
    feelings when they don't conform to the ideal either, and I think
    that many more men today are more appearance conscious than in the
    past.  But it has indeed struck me, over the years I've been dieting,
    how many men I knew were dieting for health reasons (their MD's
    read them the riot act, so to speak) and how many women I knew
    (including yours truly) were _always_ dieting simply because we 
    didn't feel we looked right.
    
    Considered from a feminist angle, it gets interesting.  What is
    the most frequently repeated message a young girl receives, other
    than the one that her appearance is of paramount importance?  I
    feel it's that she should never accomplish anything on her own,
    never be self-actualized; you know all about the stories of women
    trained to live their lives through their husbands and children.
    She is also trained, usually, that the opinions and approval of
    others are of paramount importance.  (I realize here that I'm
    theorizing based on my own upbringing and experiences.)
    
    What if a girl desires to rebel against this?  How can she do so
    and still be at least marginally accepted by society?  In the past,
    to become independent for real often resulted in very real ostracism
    by society at large, and if one has been trained (as many are) that
    the approval of others is tremendously important, removal of support
    of others is a crushing blow.  So a kind of passive agressive strategy
    can take place; she can refuse to live up to the culture's ideal
    for her appearance, _and_ use that as an excuse to put her life's
    ambitions on hold (that one reply saying "my god, if I got thin
    I couldn't put off getting my life together any longer" was really
    telling).  So she uses the culture in order to rebel against it.
    And lets, perhaps, her fat express all her anger at being told she
    must be passive, must always be in ideal condition, must never 
    displease.
    
    This is a real genius of a solution that a subconscious could concoct, 
    if you ask me.  Is it any wonder that the subconscious might panic
    in such a person?  Getting thin for this person may be wrecking a
    life-long coping strategy for her!  The fears about having to get
    one's life in order and start accomplishing perhaps produce such
    terror because deep down she knows the culture does not approve
    of her, fat or thin, if she begins to act on her desires.  And also,
    the act of dieting and getting in shape can produce rage because
    it represents not a nourishing act for her Self, but a bowing to
    the culture's standards for her, a giving in to the appearance
    standard.
    
    Now I don't believe this dynamic operates powerfully in everyone.
    But if one does have trouble losing weight because of self-sabotage
    of one's own efforts, it can be useful to examine our hopes and
    dreams in the context of the culture in which we were raised.  It
    can be quite sobering.  For instance, I know that this dynamic has
    operated in me--not strong enough to drive me to bulemia or anything,
    but as a hidden undertow.  Now, I also love the sensuous side of
    eating, love to taste, touch, smell, feel.  This has been my downfall
    too.  But would I have had an easier time becoming sensuously
    interested in low-cal foods (spa cuisine can be very yummy and lovely)
    if I weren't also laboring with the cultural dynamic?  I kind of think
    so . . . I think it can aggravate what might otherwise be a simple
    problem.
    
    Marcia

    So THAT'S why I'm successful this time!  I'm not becoming society's
    "norm" of a thin, beautiful in weak-femininity, clinging, dependant
    woman - I'm doing bodybuilding and have 12" (unflexed) arms!  And
    that's not fat there.  So now I've got the guys asking *me* to help
    *them* move furniture!
    
    --Louise

    re .6:
    
    I'm slated to move to ZK3 in November, if you would like to do some
    furniture moving...:-).
    
    
    Here's an observation I've made while watching TV recently that
    probably fits as well here as anywhere else.  Has anyone besides
    me noticed that in soft drink commercials, the man is always drinking
    the "regular" Coke, Pepsi, or whatever, and the woman always is drinking
    the "diet" equivalent?  (An example that comes to mind is the Pepsi
    Free ads, where after a couple go on a wild car chase or airplane
    ride, they take a break for a Pepsi Free.  The man is *always* drinking
    the regular Pepsi Free, and the woman *always* has a Diet Pepsi Free.)
    Almost seems like they're implying that "women are always on diets".
    Strikes me as being a bit chauvanistic.

    I think you're right, Paul.  In fact I remember making a mental
    note of that just the other night.  But when I actually sat there
    and thought about it, I know many more women who are dieting than
    men.  Also a previous note about the Weight Watchers meetings having
    more women than men seems to say the same thing.
    
    -leslie
    

    I think it's less socially unacceptable for a man to be "a bit chunkey"
    than for a woman.  Anyone else agree/disagree?
                             
    Marion

    re .9:
    
    Have to agree with you, no doubt about it.
    
    A couple of replies to other notes reinforce this:
    
    	Neal Goldsmith's statement that he's now at the point where
    	some men consider him a linebacker rather than a blimp.
    
    	The story about the woman who hoped that if her first child
    	was a girl, she wouldn't inherit the family "thunder thighs".
                                                     
    

    
    Interesting point, the advertising world does treat mass-market
    ads as men = none-diet, women = diet. But!, there is hope. In some
    ads it's equal. Micheal J. Fox drinks diet pepsi, runs out and must
    go out and get some for his cute vistor. Some other ads are now
    beginning to play to both men and women in the same ad.
    
    The nation knows we're here! Finally...
    
    							--- Neal

    I think that is partly because women have been trained that what
    they have to look forward to in life is choosing clothing, getting
    attention for being attractive, and getting and "keeping" a man.
    
    Men, on the other hand, have been out in the world doing things
    for centuries.  What they could do was not bound to how they looked,
    although it always helped to fit whatever the popular stereotypes
    of the time were.
    
    In old novels, and old photographs, it has always seemed to me that
    once women had a few children, they were not expected to "keep their
    looks".  In some of the books I read, one matronly woman would
    occasionally comment to another that it was nice to be able to
    "let yourself go" and "eat what you wanted".  I suppose that was
    a small compensation for all the endless giving women were required
    to do!
    
    Holly

    Re: .12
    
    Boy does that comment strike a chord (minor)!  I think (no, I actually
    feel it in my guts) that many women, in trying to conform to societal
    ideal that says they should always be endlessly giving and nurturant
    are, of course, starved.  Figuratively and in some cases, literally.
    For when you examine the Endless Giving Ethic closely, there doesn't
    seem to be any room in there for a giver to get.  A tendency to
    gobble food, to binge, to sneak food is many a woman's subconscious
    way of crying out for emotional, mental, spiritual, even physical 
    sustenance.
    
    I have a friend, an obstetrician who is chronically overweight and
    often eats compulsively.  At a workshop we took together, when the
    instructor asked us what our favorite foods were, she responded
    somberly, "Whatever is on everyone else's plate."  I didn't doubt
    her for a minute, and I didn't think it was coincidental.  This
    woman friend has not had a complete night's sleep since she entered
    her residency, she cannot go away on vacations without wondering
    whether her patients will sue her if the doctors covering for her 
    do not handle things to their liking, patients call her at her home 
    at all hours (I've been there when it happens).  I'd gobble, too.
    
    Marcia

  Hey, c'mon, ladies!  Stop blaming it *all* on the subconscious.  I agree,
  a lot of the problem is in the way we're taught to view ourselves, but
  there's also a *big* genetic aspect to it.
  
  As a generalization, men tend to be more muscular than women, and women
  tend to be fatter.  This is pro-survival -- women have the babies!  That
  layer of fat could save your life and the babies if there happens to be
  a lean year when you're pregnant.  Men need the strength to do hard physical
  labor to provide food, and don't need to worry about surviving pregnancy.
  This is discussed in The Woman Doctor's Diet For Women.  I don't recall
  the author's name -- I'll post it tomorrow.
  
  I'm not talking about politics -- this is evolution.  Most overweight men
  can lose weight much more easily than overweight women -- they're bodies
  don't fight them for every pound, especially if they're converting it to
  muscle.  As women, we must *not* accept some idiot doctor telling us "I
  lost 50 pounds by cutting out deserts; you can do it, too."  The fact that
  you're not losing doesn't mean you're cheating.
  
  Now, on to the survey:
  
   1) How long have you had a weight problem?  
         I was plump as a child; I was consistently 20 lbs overweight for as
         long as I can remember.  I don't think it was really a problem, though,
         until I was 8 or so.  We moved, and I was miserable.
    
   2) How do you think your weight has affected your life?  
         This is a tough one.  I can't imagine any other life!  I was picked on
         for being fat, but I was also picked on for being Jewish, and for being
         friends with the wrong kid.  I've had a bad self-image for a long time,
         but I think the fat was an excuse, not the real reason.
         
         The extra pounds have certainly affected my relationships.  My husband
         and I get along much better when we're both at a weight where we
         can breath :-( .  I get so miserable about being ugly, and he loses
         patience with my moaning.
    
    3) How do *you* think of yourself?  
         Depends on my mood.  Lazy, certainly.  I'm not a high-energy person.
         Sometimes I'll look in the mirror, and be surprised at how pretty
         I am.  Other times, I catch the side view and cringe.
    
    4) How do you think *others* think of you?
         Not especially friendly, snooty, etc.  Mostly because I'm afraid
         to join converstaions, develop friendships, etc.
    
    5) What are your fears about staying overweight?
         Mostly health-related.  My dad was diagnosed as pre-diabetic some
         years back (his father died from diabetes), and lost 40 lbs.  It
         never developed.  I *know* I'm headed down the same path if I don't
         lose.  My general health would, improve, too.
         
    6) What are your fears about becoming slim?
         The same "oh, no, my excuse is gone" that has been so well stated
         elsewhere.  Also, finding out that I *still* don't feel comfortable
         around others (same thing, really).

    7) Self analysis: why do you think *you* overeat?  
         Not sure, but it definitely comes from my head.  The sight of food
         can make me ill, but I'll keep shoving it in.  I feel, sometimes,
         as though I'm going to have screaming hysterics if I don't get fed
         *NOW*.  Sometimes it's sugar specific, sometimes protein will fix it.

    The author of "The Woman Doctor's Diet for Women" is Barbara Edelstein.
    Anyone in MKO who'd like to borrow one is welcome to (for some reason
    I have 2 copies) - send me mail at GROK::KASPER, or stop by MKO1-2/K4
    (my partitions include that pole - you can't miss it!).  Of course,
    anyone who wants to say hi is welcome -- you don't have to borrow
    anything!  :-)
    
    I'm not necessarily recommending her diet plan -- I've never really
    tried it.  I think it's too strict in some ways, too lax in others
    (tuna in oil, chicken with skin, etc).  On the other hand, some
    of my biggest failures have been when I tried to "mix & match" diet
    plans; they all have trade-offs!  The details don't start until page
    149, though, so there's a lot more to this book!  
    
    A few entries from the Table of Contents:
    	- Men & Women are different - Damn the difference!
    	- Why does a Woman Start Dieting
    	- The Universal Overweight Syndrome (discusses personality traits
	  common to overweight women, and how to deal with them).
    	- Dieting and our Bodies [including a sub-heading: Pregnancy (or,
	  keeping your wife pregnant is almost as good as keeping her fat)
    	- Dieting and our minds
    	- Men Who Help and Men Who Hinder Dieting Women
	  (If you have a spouse or Significant Other who sabotages, hand
	   them this chapter to read!!)
    

    Dr. Edelstein!  She was my "fat doctor" when I lived in Connecticut.
    She advocated every fad diet that came down the pike - as long as
    you would visit her once a week and would pay for a blood test,
    a urinalysis and a consult fee.  She did the protien spareing fast,
    the HCG shots ( where you had to go every day and pay up front )
    and pritty much anything else to get a fee.  I felt that she had
    very little reguard for her patients.  Let me tell you my experience.
    
    I was on the protien spareing fast diet.  That means no food except
    for this reched liquid that you had to take once or twice a dat.
    You had to go to visit her once a week for a blood test and a
    urinalysis.  She charged $10 for the urinalysis, but you had to
    bring your own cup.  If you did not bring your own cup, you could
    not have the test done, but you were charged for it anyhow.  One
    time I forgot my cup.  I asked her if it weren't dangerous for me
    to go an entire week without the test.  She told me that the test
    was only to see if you are "legal".  I asked what she meant by legal.
    She told me that you can tell by the PH of the urine if I had eaten
    any food.  All you do is get some litnis (sp?) paper sticks and
    she could tell if you had come out of keytosis.  In other words
    I was paying $10 for her receptionist to dip a paper stick in my
    urine (in my own cup, no less) to see if I had eaten.  She would
    also see you for about two minutes at which time she asked you how
    you felt.  The last time I saw her, I told her I was feeling very
    week and light headed.  She told me that was probably because I
    was fasting (gee, why didn't I think of that!).  After I left her
    office, I was in a department store and I passed out.  Went to the
    emergency room, stayed in the hospital over night.  After I got
    out of the hospital, I called her.  I told her what happened.  She
    told me that I should have told her I was feeling faint.  I reminded
    her what I had told her that very afternoon.  She told me that I
    must not have made myself clear.  For thirty dollars a week ($10
    for the urine test, $20 for her consultation) I got nothing but
    a big health risk.  When I found out she had written a book, I just
    figured that it probably pays more than ripping off patients.
    
    The last time I saw Dr Edelstein, she was probably 50 pounds
    overweight.  Who said their is no justice in this world!
    
    Marion

    Gak!  She does talk about fad diets; some of them she's very
    disparaging about, others she says "well, it didn't seem to hurt
    anything."  While she sounds like a definite avoidance item for
    consultation, I still think the book has some well-written chapters.
    
    I could understand your inclination not to put any more money inher
    pocket, though!
    

    My experience of the book Fat is a Feminist Issue, after reading
    it 8 years ago, led to a slow long term weight loss which has brought
    me down to 140-145 lbs from a high at that time of 215 (I am 5'7").
    The book opened up new ways of thinking for me, and helped me take
    a look at my "problem" from a different perspective.  It helped
    to get me mentally un-stuck.
    It seems to me that many of the concept covered by the author (Susie
    Orbach) can be applied to men with weight problems as well.  The
    point of the idea of this being a feminist issue is just that women
    tend to be pre-disposed socially to turning to food, it is an
    acceptable problem.  Often women bury some unacceptable or painful
    problem under the acceptable one - fat.  Of course men do this too,
    but perhaps not as commonly.
    
    I would highly recommend this book to EVERYONE.  It changed my life
    - or should I say it helped me change my life.
    
    Molly S.

    Also posted in MOMCAT::WOMANNOTES-V3.
        
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