Conference rocks::weight_control

    Hi
    I wonder could you tell me where you are from ( country?????),
    my dad has been trying to lose weight for a long time if
    when you say it is freely available, if that is in England then 
    I will tell him.
    
    Warm Regards
    Mick.

    Hi,
    
    Re: -.1
    
    Gerry is in the UK.
    
    
    I've also heard of Triacarma (sp?) which does the same thing.  Anyone
    heard of this one?
    
    

    I am suprised that no one has mentioned the 20/20 story from last
    Friday [feb 3].  There was the normal statistic, 95% of people who
    loose weight, gain it back, and more.  So every time we go on a diet, 
    we're betting that we're in that lucky 5%
    
    back to 20/20.  they mentioned a combination of an antidepressant and
    a appetiet reducer.  It was not perfectly safe, but it worked.  
    I did a little research in the library.  I found prozk [sp] is also
    used in weight control.
    there is very little work/research in obesity.  We find more money into
    AIDs.  Yet the public at large spends billinos on useless ways to 
    reduce.
    
    When I last noted here, I had lost 100 pounds via the liquid diet.
    and in less than a year gained back 150!  big 250# yo-yo.  I can say I
    am a 25 year veterin of deiting.  I know how to count fat grams, what
    food is good for me.  how to exercise.  and how to dodge the dirty
    looks of people who wonder why I just don't stop eating so much.
    on watching the 20/20 piece, I did admit, I do plan my meals serveral
    in advance.  Meals are important.  Even if I'm sick, I'll eat.  I'll
    eat if I'm not hungry.  The people they talked about did similiar
    things- I thought I was the only one who had these traits.  After the
    medicine combo I mentioned above, they ate normal.  They could skip a
    meal without any big deal.  I wish I could.
    
    So, Monday, I am going to meet with my doctor, my HMO pcp, and ask him
    to consider the 20/20 piece, the articles I've found, and ask him to
    consider a treatment plan, or a referal to a reseach clinic where they
    will help me.  HIs plan to date, blaming any condition I'd see him for
    on my weight, and telling me to reduce, has not worked.
    
    did anyone lese watch this piece or see anything else in this
    direction?
    
    regards,
    ed
    btw, I didn't mean this to be a downer type note.  perhaps there are
    multiple classes of people that need to loose weight.  those with only
    20-30 pounds, and those, like me, that have many more to go.
    
    

     The reason why I don't like hearing statistics like that is the likelihood
that it will discourage some people from even trying to lose weight.  I don't
believe that the statistic is true.  I am a Joe-average kind of a guy who
lost more than 100 pounds, and did not gain it back.  I hardly believe that
I am in a 5% elite.

     I don't like the idea of wonder drugs because they seem to go against
some of the basic principles of life (balance, work-for-results, etc.).
When a heavy person doesn't learn about themselves through the process of 
weight loss, they seem to continue the behavior that made them heavy in the 
first place.

     I can't criticize those who do use these drugs though.  Not everyone 
is healthy enough to do the exercise necessary to lose large amounts of 
weight or financially able to buy good food all the time.

                                 Greg

    
        Greg, I hear what you are saying.  the 95% failure rate is a downer.
    I've heard that figure before, so it's not a one source item.

    On the other hand, it does help explain a few things.  20 years ago to
    this day, I quit a 3-pack a day habit.  I have a positive attitude
    toward getting things done.  I lost 100 pounds then regained 150.
    I know everything I should know about
    nutrition and exercise.  I don't think I eat excessively.  I do eat when
    my body says NO. 

    The 20/20 piece was an eye opener for me.  Again, we're not talking
    about about small weight loss needs.  But something is wrong in the
    equation.  you took off the 100 pounds, and if you haven't regained
    any in the ensuring years, you are one of the 5% [someone has to be
    there].  good.  

    the drugs are not just appetite suppressents.  they alone don't work
    or the stomach bypasses, stapling would work and they don't.
	We're alson not talking about a wonder drug that will melt the fat
    away; we're talking about something that will help people take control
    of their lives.  we'll see.
    
    regards,

    ed

    Before agreeing to take prozac for weight control, look into the
    possible side affects.  It's a contraversial drug.  I'd really
    consider alternatives before resorting to prozac.
    
    Kath

    I know Prozac is mainly used to help severely depressed people.  It
    puts them on more of an "even keel" so they can cope with stresses.
    I didn't know another use was for weight control.  That's interesting
    because the girl I know of who was on it, did lose weight-she dieted 
    and excercised too.
    
    Back to the Clembutrl, I called around and it is used to make you 
    "lean and veiny".  It does speed up the matabolizm but you can only
    use it for a short while and its easy to abuse it.  If you abuse it,
    it will start to matabolize your muscles.  We can't get it here in
    the States.....not legally anyway.
    
    Back to the 20/20, the University of Chicago is heading up the research
    for those two drugs they put you on.  They have been getting good
    results, but its not a proven method yet.  The phone number for the
    U of C Obesity clinic is 312.702.2122.  From the literature, it sounds
    like you have to live close so they can monitor you.  Maybe they may
    set something up with your local doctor though...it may be worth asking 
    them about it.  I know for a fact there is currently a waiting-list
    that extends until March right now.
    
    RS

    PS.  The U of C thing costs about $1000
    
    RS

    The only comments I would make re drugs for dieting, (and I've tried
    one of them), is that they are fine whilst you're taking them.  They
    stop you from feeling hungry and they give you energy etc but they
    don't teach you not to overeat and not to stop eating all the wrong
    things.  As a consequence of that you put all the weight back on when
    you stop taking them and also you can eat almost twice as much as you
    were before to make up for the food you've missed!
    
    Surely there is only one way to lose weight?  Re-educate yourself and
    exercise.  Sounds pretty easy but I'm still overweight and having a
    nightmare of a time trying to lose it!
    
    Good luck to all,
    Anji

    The 95% group I find myself belonging to  know all the right things.
    We have tried them all.  We are continuealy being told we are stupid,
    and lazy.  It is not easy or in 25 years of trying, I would have
    completed it.  
    as to the meds, we're talking appitite suppression combined with 
    an anti depressant.  I admit now to eating when my body doesn't tell
    me to.  It doesn't make sence to me.
    
    I've been searching the libraries since the 20/20 show for information
    on what is going on.  We spend millions on a reseach study to determine
    if there will be injuries in a helecopter crash..DUH!  we don't do
    mush study on the condition of obesity.   
    I don't want a miricle drug.  I want to know what is goin on.  I don't
    want the country to spend 30 BILLION on diet programs that don't work.
    But perhaps, there are those that profit from it that do.
    ed
    

RE:              <<< Note 878.10 by NPSS::BADGER "Can DO!" >>>
       
     Well, I'll tell ya, Ed, losing weight is a mental/spiritual thing.
     It seems as if your mind and body are designed to prevent you from
     doing what you are attempting.  As a result, you literally have to
     fight some of your own natural survival mechanisms.  I found myself 
     playing mental tricks and games to motivate myself to climb on that 
     treadmill every morning.  

     Because I am so easily discouraged, I lost weight at a faster rate 
     than is recommended by most doctors.  Mentally, I needed to see the 
     fast rate of loss in order to stay motivated.  Since it was due to 
     exercise instead of starvation, my doctor didn't say much about it.

     I still have a goodly amount of weight I'd like to lose, but I have
     been on a plateau for several months.  So, instead of worrying about
     it, I am staying active and toning up.  When summer activities hit,
     the weight should start coming off again.  The important thing is to 
     keep the weight from coming back.

     Another big thing is that you have to pay attention to what happens when
     you try certain things.  Stick with what works.  I remember how
     surprised I was when I worked like a dog one day and didn't lose an
     ounce.  The same surprise hit when I starved for a day and didn't lose
     an ounce.  Even more surprise hit when I had a pretty healthy amount 
     of good food and lost 2 pounds without even exercising.  There are more
     secrets to your body than any book is telling.  You have to experiment
     and learn for yourself.  You already know the basic facts.  You HAVE
     to eat healthier.  You HAVE to exercise.  You have to avoid fats and
     sweets... and you have to do this consistently for a period of time.

     I wish I could make it easier for you, but I am still learning myself.

                                        Greg    

    Re. 10 and 11
    
    I learned the hard way over many years that there are two very distinct
    parts to weight control. One is education about food and exercise and
    the other is overcoming the need to overeat. If being overweight is due
    to lack of knowledge, only, about what to do to reach and maintain
    weight, education in an environment like weight watchers can work well.
    If excess weight is due to an eating disorder, the process of discovery
    and recovery is more complex. There is a lot of help out there these
    days and eating disorders are becoming recognised by the larger
    community. OA is recommended a lot for those who are willing to follow
    a 12 step program. I don't personally know this program, but I have
    some close friends who have had good success. I have a lot of respect
    for a program which helps so many with so many tough issues.
    
    I have heard some generally good things about OA in that it is a
    community which encourages feelings of self-esteem and help. I believe
    you are encouraged to obtain a sponsor who has been through the program
    and whom you can and should call for support. It also, as all 12 step
    programs, requires that you give yourself over to a higher power,
    generally spiritual but not necessarily. This part is initially hard
    for some people.
    
    Weight control is different for everyone. Sometimes it requires only a
    little more "willpower" and sometimes it is a life change. Be gentle on
    yourself and take the time to understand what you really want and need.
    Some people want to be thin so a miracle can occur. The truth is that
    miracles do not occur because you are thin. Most significant change
    comes from within, when you like yourself and it shows. That can happen
    at any weight.
    
    Weight control is something that will be a big part of my life. I know
    what to do and do it most of the time, but there are still times when I
    want to fill empty feelings with food. They are not as frequent, but
    they are there. There was even a time when I was afraid to lose weight
    because I would have to be part of the "normal" world and have to
    compete with "normal" people without hiding behind an excuse about
    losing out because I was overweight. I'm part of the "normal" world now
    and, you know what? It's not as hard as I imagined it would be. It was
    worth all the discovery and hard work.
    
    Can you tell it's slow Friday afternoon?
    
    Amy

        Well, Amy I'm glad for you that you are now to be 'normal'.  I hope 
    you can report the same in 5 years.  I was posterchild for the liquid
    diets.
    by no means am I disagreeing that it isn't self discovery, nor that us
    95% are losers that should give up.  I do think the medical industry
    should do more research for us.
    
    'unnormal' ed

                                                 
    From the description in .0, I would take a guess that one of the main 
    ingredients in the Clembutryl drug is ephidrine, which comes from the 
    herb Chinese Ma Huang.  
    
    I say this because ephidrine is used as a base for some anti-asthmatic
    drugs, and .0 mentioned the connection to breathing problems along with
    the reference to the bodybuilding circuit where a few bodybuilders I
    know use ephidrine.
    
    Chinese Ma Huang is the main ingredient in the Herbalife Thermojetics 
    green tablet (to be used in conjunction with the beige tablet, which 
    has other herbs in it to dampen the Ma Huang somewhat), and indeed it 
    does work for many people - including myself - to reduce fat, increase 
    energy, and curb one's appetite.  However there are some cautions that 
    go with it which are clearly labeled on the Herbalife bottles - you 
    should avoid using that product if you have any of the following 
    conditions:  high blood pressure, pregnancy or lactating, kidney
    problems, or cardiovascular disease.  
    
    If you are thinking about going to your local healthfood store to pick
    up some straight Chinese Ma Huang, you should be able to find it,
    however use it with caution and read up on it first, as it is a very 
    powerful herb.  You should be able to find some writeups in "The Yoga
    Of Herbs", by Lad and Frawley, and "The Way Of Herbs", by Tierra.  It
    is listed either under Ma Huang or Ephidrine.  
    
    Cindy

    Ditto to Ma Huang.
    
    I bought a natural appetite supressent which was mostly Ma Huang when I
    was in Sydney. I had to stop taking it because I couldn't finish a meal
    no matter what size it was! It *did* give me a lot of energy, too. I'm
    a habitual afternoon napper usually, and I didn't need to nap at all. I
    was also awake before the sun came up every day. If I feel the need to
    start taking it again, I'll cut back to one a day instead of the
    recommended 2 twice a day.
    
    Amy

    Re. 13
    
    Ed,
    
    I reached my goal weight with the help of Weight Watchers in 1990, and
    except for a 10# rise and re-loss in 1992, I've been pretty much
    maintaining. I don't know if that puts me in the 5% or not. I don't
    feel like I'm in the 5%, though because I address weight issues every
    day. The one thing I have noticed, though (and it could be partially
    the education and awareness part) and that is that my internal alarm
    bells go off when I'm more than 2# above my goal weight and I pay
    closer attention to what I'm doing and feeling.
    
    I actually started journalling my feelings when that happens and it
    makes for interesting reading about what's going on in my life and how
    I react to it. I don't think it will hit the bestseller list, but it
    helps when I go back and see the bumpy points in my life.
    
    I can only talk about what worked for me, but I found that when I go to
    Weight Watcher classes and deal with not only what I'm eating, but
    what's eating me, it keeps me on track. I found WW@W to be a safe
    environment; some don't.
    
    Ed, I thought about what you were saying, and I have to agree about the
    medical industry. I think there's a lot of physiology/psychology issues
    still to be worked out. I think there's a link between the inability to
    metabolise certain foods, cravings and neuropsychology. This is not based 
    on anything scientific, it's just a feeling. I don't think it is just a
    discipline issue. But, until it's discovered and a cure or a vaccine
    is developed for it, all I can do is what I know works for me today.
    
    Hang in there.
    
    Amy	

    At out health food store I was given "Diet Maxx" when I asked for Ma
    Huang.  It contains:
    
    Standardized Ma Huang extract:  200mg
    Standadized Kola nut extract:  100 mg
    Mustard Seed Powder:  100 mg
    Spirulina :  100 mg
    Vit. C  :  100 mg
    Potassium: 50 mg
    Magnesium Aspartate:  50 mg
    
    Does anyone know if this would be an affective safe combination?
    Does anyone know why there is this mix of ingredients?  For example
    what does Mustard seed do with Ma Huang?  How does this compare to 
    Herbalife?
    
    I just got it this weekend.  I haven't noticed anything drastic.  Maybe
    I'm a little peppier than normal, but that's it.  Oh, I seem to be
    thirstier than normal too.
    
    RS

    I tried those last year and they didn't affect me like the ones I got
    in Australia. I'll have to check the bottles and see the differences.
    The ingredients are supposed to be thermogenic, but I don't know how
    they work together. That must be where Herbalife got the name for it's
    line, Thermojetics.
    
    These are the big black capsules, right?
    
    Maybe Cindy can tell us how they compare...

    Yes, they are big and black.  It will be interesting to see
    the difference between what you have, what I have and what Cindy has.
    Can you post the name of the one you got in Sydney?  I can see if
    I can find it here.  Since its an herb, maybe it won't be illegal
    like Clembutrl.
    
    RS

The Herbalife Thermojetics Green and Beige tablets contain the following
ingredients:

	Thermojetics Green: Chinese Ma Huang, Bladderwrack, Yerba Mate,
			    Valerian Root, Purple Willow, Fumitory Herb,
			    and Papain
	Thermojetics Beige: Hawthorn Berry, Cascara Sagrada, Uva Ursi,
			    Alfalfa, Cornsilk, Parsley, Marshmallow Root,
			    Magnolia Bark, Pau d'Arco, Pfaffia Paniculata,
			    Astragalus (Bai Chi), Fennel Seed, Golden Rod,
			    and Licorice

The recommended use is:  Take 1-3 Green Tablets with 1 Beige tablet
			 twice a day, at 10:00 a.m. and at 3:00 p.m.

Notice: This program (Green and Beige Thermojetics) is not recommended for
	pregnant or lactating women, or for those with a cardiovascular
	disorder, high blood pressure, or any serious illness.

For comparison purposes, the prices for approximately a 30-day supply are:  

	Thermojetics Green, 120 tablets, $21.00 (plus tax, ship/hand)
	Thermojetics Beige, 60 tablets, $8.95 (plus tax, ship/hand)

    
    Re.17
    
    Diet Maxx - most of my herb books are with a friend at the moment, so I
    could only check "The Way Of Herbs", by Michael Tierra, C.A., N.D.  
    
    From "The Way Of Herbs" - the active ingredient in the Kola Nut is 
    caffeine, so that coupled with the Ma Huang, would definitely account 
    for the pep.  Also, Ma Huang, Kola Nut, and Mustard Seed all have 
    'diuretic' listed as one of their many properties, so that may be why 
    you were thirsty.  
    
    The book did not mention anything about the mustard seed/ma huang
    combination, and from memory I don't recall that one being talked 
    about specifically in any of the other books I have either, so can't 
    provide any more details on that one.  You'd probably have to write 
    to the company to find out their reasons for that particular 
    combination if you're interested.   Herbal formulations are a real 
    art and science, especially given the countless options to choose 
    from when preparing various formulas. 
    
    >Does anyone know if this would be an an effective safe combination?
    
    From what I've read and know about the ingredients, it does not appear 
    to be unsafe for most people.  Just wondering though - are there any 
    precautions listed on the label?  With the two main ingredients being 
    stimulants, there may be some groups of people who should probably steer
    clear of this combination, or at least consult their physician before
    taking it. 
    
    I began a new topic on Herbs to enter reference information about 
    specific herbs and their properties - topic 880.
    
    Cindy  

    I must have left the bottle behind. I can't find it now. I do remember
    a few ingredients I have never seen before. From memory, there was blue
    iris something, capsicum, juniper berry oil and something else that was
    listed as a stimulant. 
    

    Thanks for the information....that's interesting stuff!  Yes, there
    is a warning on the side which says, "Individuals with diabetes,
    hypertension, glaucoma, thyroid disease or pregnant/lactating women
    should consult their physician prior to the use of this product."
    
    RS

    
    Interestingly, I was just talking with a friend about these kinds of 
    products, and she mentioned offhand that she heard some television 
    show the other night cautioning people either not to take, or to be 
    very careful when taking diet combinations with both Ma Huang and Kola 
    Nut, especially if you have any kind of heart problems.  Apparently
    there have been some serious side-effects experienced.  
    
    From .23 - Diet Maxx does not list this as a caution, but you may want 
    to just be very careful in any case.
    
    Cindy

                           
    From: "The Way Of Herbs", by Michael Tierra, p.178-9
    
    Kola Nut   
    --------
    (Cola acuminata and C.nitida)
    (Cola, Guru nut)
    
    Part Used:  Seed
    Energy and Flavors:  Bitter, warm
    Systems Affected:  Kidney-adrenals, heart, liver
    Biochemical Constituents:  Caffeine (up to 2.5%), theobromine,
                               tannins, phenolics, coloring matter,
                               betaine, protein, starch
    Properties:  Stimulant, diuretic, cardiac tonic, antidepressive,
                 astringent
    
    The active ingredient in kola nut is caffeine.  It is used both for its
    stimulating action as well as its flavor and color in various soft
    drinks.  Its use for depression and fatigue, therefore, is purely
    symptomatic.  A continual reliance on such symptomatic treatments as
    this and others such as coffee or tea (Camellia sinensis) for tiredness
    and fatigue is bound to deplete further the body's reserves, setting
    one up for more chronic degenerative conditions.  Fatigue and tireness
    usually have a cause that should be discovered and treated at a deeper
    level with diet, herbs, and appropriate physiotherapy and lifestyle
    adjustments.
    
    Dose: 1-3 grams; of the tincture 5-15 drops.
    
    Kola nuts are used for:  tiredness and fatigue

    Hi all-
    
    Cindy,  I have to disagree about the warning.  I took that right off
    of the bottle that I have sitting right here in front of me.  
    
    I saw the last two or three sentences on that Ma Huang/Kola Nut news
    blip.  I'm a little nervouse about taking them now.  I don't have a 
    heart problem that I know of, but still.......:(  I think I probably
    have a high tolerance for Kola Nut because I drink way too much Diet
    Pepsi/Coke.  It's always *something* isn't it??????!!!
    
    RS

    I forgot to put in the last note.....cindy, does Herbalife mix 
    those two together? 
    
    Rs
    
    

                          
    Re.27
    
    No, Kola Nut is not used in any Herbalife products.
    
    The only Herbalife products that contain caffeine are the NRG (Natural 
    Raw Guarana), NRG tea (orange pekoe tea and guarana) and the Thermojetics 
    Beverage (Chinese green tea).  They are clearly marked.  
    
    Interesting about the guarana - I was just in Brazil on a botanical 
    tour and we went to an Amazonian research center (IMPE) while in Manaus. 
    There was a wall that had a lot of information listed about medicinal 
    plants, and guarana was among them.  It has some interesting properties 
    and helps things like arteriosclerosis.  Our guide added that it does 
    not damage the heart.  I find that when I take the tablets, it's a
    different feeling from drinking a cup of coffee.
    
    When we got to Rio, I noticed that guarana is used in some of their 
    softdrinks as a base (probably similar to the way that the kola nut 
    is used in colas).  The soda was quite tasty actually, and I brought 
    several cans back with 'Guarana' stamped on the sides.  I found the 
    raw guarana powder in a store - you can also mix it straight if you 
    like, as they've been using it for centuries there - and it was the 
    same color as the NRG Herbalife tablets. 
    
    Cindy

    
    Re.26
    
    >I have to disagree about the warning.  I took that right off
    >of the bottle that I have sitting right here in front of me.
    
    Not sure what you were commenting on here.  ???
    
    Cindy

    Cindy,  
    
    I misread your note to mean you didn't think the Diet Maxx label
    had a warning on it.  But I believe you meant it didn't have a 
    Ma Huang/Kola Nut warning--and you are right, it doesn't.  So please
    ignore my previous note.   That's what happens when I read too fast!!!
    :):)
    
    Brazil sounds like a neat place to go for vacation!!  
    
    Do you know how many milligrams of Ma Huang Herbalife uses per serving?
    The Diet Maxx is 200mg.  I'm considering changing over and I'd like
    to know what your company recommends.
    
    Thanks,
    RS

 
    Re.30
    
    Ah, OK.  Got it.  (;^)
    
    Brazil was absolutely wonderful.  I plan to go back sometime.  We
    went to the Amazon area around Manaus, then to Iguassu Falls in the
    south of the country on the borders of Argentina and Paraguay, then
    to Rio.
    
    I'm not sure how many milligrams of Ma Huang are in the Thermojetics
    green tablets.  The label only lists the ingredients in decending order
    of the greatest to the least amounts in the tablets, so the primary 
    ingredient is the Ma Huang, then on down to the least amount.  
    
    The suggested amount is to start with 3 greens and 1 beige.  This is an
    individualistic product that you have to tailor to your own requirements. 
    They work on your metabolism similar to exercise.  There's a balance
    point where you find the right amount of exercise so that you feel
    energetic and don't feel hungry.  For me, it's around 30 minutes, but
    for others, it can be only 15 minutes or even an hour.
    
    So, if you take too few greens for you, then you have some energy but 
    will still be hungry.  If you take the right amount for you, then you 
    will have energy and not feel hungry.  If you take too much, then you 
    will feel tired.  For some people, taking only 1 green and 1 beige is 
    what works for them.  For others, it may be 3-4 greens and 1-2 beige.
    
    If you feel too much energy, then you can take a beige to lessen the
    energy (from checking my herb books, it is the licorice in the beige
    tablet that dampens the effect of the ma huang somewhat).  Then the
    next time, just decrease your green by one tablet.  And so on.
    
    >I'm considering changing over and I'd like to know what your company 
    >recommends.
    
    You can use the green/beige combination by themselves, however it is
    recommended that you use these in conjunction with the Cellular
    Nutrition program which contains Formula 1 - a shake powder, Formula 2
    - a multivitamin, mineral and herbal combination, and Formula 3 -
    botanicals and micronutrients.  This gives you a solid nutritional base
    in addition to the herbal combinations, and this works most reliably
    for most people to lose and keep the weight off. 
    
    I began using only the green/beige combo for a month and did feel an 
    energy boost along with an appetite decrease.  However, when I added
    the Cellular Nutrition Formula 1,2,3 products, I lost 3.5 pounds in 
    one week (and I wasn't even replacing any meals with the shake...rather 
    I added it for my late afternoon snack).  However, I wasn't trying to 
    actively lose, so your program would no doubt vary.  I've continued to
    lose gradually, and am now down 7 pounds from last September.  
    
    Some people actually use the products to gain weight as well, and they 
    take one shake three times per day with each meal - people who are 
    recovering from serious illnesses and the like. 
    
    Cindy                                                        

    Re: the opening note........
    
    You will ,I am sure, be delighted to know that the Clembuterol works
    like nothing else I've ever tried!
    
    The pounds have fallen of me...irrespective of what I eat.
    
    The side effects are a little odd..you feel as though you are shaking,
    and you do seem to be prone to some pretty powerful headaches, but
    asprin soon put paid to that..there are also some problems sleeping,
    but again,if you dont take any after about 14:00, that also is sorted
    out.The general feeling of well being and the endless energy may be
    associated with the weight loss or may be a beneficial side effect.
    
    Either way, I'm impressed.

    Could anybody please let me know if Clembutryl is available in Scotland
    and if so, is it also known by the same brand name ?
    
    Thanks in anticipation.