Conference rocks::weight_control

    Sounds safe enough.
    
    Just out of curiosity, have you been tested for hyper- and hypoglycemia?

    Hi,
    
    Yes many years ago I did the 5 hour Glucose Tolerance Test, and was
    diagnosed "borderline Hypoglycemia" I recognize that what I am
    describing fits well with Hypoglycemia and is probably not a good idea
    for a Diabetic.  However as I have noticed people going for the "pick
    me up" It occurs to me that there are a lot of people that may not be
    diagnosed as hypoglycemic nor have it enough to be of any medical
    concern but who would find that they could control their appetite much
    more easily with sugar pills and at the same time get the benefit of
    allowing the body to burn much more fat by not having so much insulin
    in the system as a reaction to the "candy bar" also have their body 
    store less fat since the sugar level is kept much lower.
    
    It does seem to help me, I am interested if anyone else wants to
    experiment with it and share their results?
    
    Thanks
    
    Len   

    I mentioned that only as a precaution, because sugar lows can mask
    a more serious condition.
    
    Snacking periodically to relieve the sugar lows is perfectly healthy,
    it's just a sign that tells me to raise the diabetes flag, in case you
    haven't been checked recently.

    It is still working. I now call it "Appetite control" since it is not a
    diet, it does not take any responsibility for nutrition.
    
    I am now down about 40 lbs, I experienced a plateau for almost 2 weeks
    then a rapid drop after. This seems normal enough.
    
    I found that I can control my appetite as long as I want to. The other
    day I went 40 hours between meals and didn't really feel hungry.
    
    Again, I say I recognize that one should not go that long very often.
    But I am excited to see how well this simple proceedure deals with the
    physiological aspects of appetite.
    
    I still have to watch the psychological aspects of appetite. Sometimes
    I blow it and eat something like a Big Bowl of Graham Crackers and Milk
    (my personal weakness) but If I can predict the stress comming and take
    a few more of my "sugar pills" it helps.
    
    I have experimented with Skittles. By number of calories they should
    equal 3 Tic Tacks or 3 LifeSaver Holes. That is they have 4.5 calories
    each. Since I frequently take 3 at a time, I thought the Skittles would
    be easier (only 1 "pill") and cheaper. But it seems that they don't
    metabalize the same because they don't seem to work as well.
    
    (this suggests to me that there is indeed more than the placebo effect
    going on here since some things do work and some don't)
    
    I also find that it does seem that eating late in the day causes less
    or no loss for that day.
    
    I purchased a "Doctors Scale" which is accurate to 1/4 pound so I am
    able to measure the weight changes throught the day. 
    
    I also notice that a big change in the amount of food consumed in a day
    can affect for two days, since it does not move clear through the body
    in one day.
    
    Well it is interesting to me, If anyone else wants to try to experiment
    with it please let me know since we can learn from each other's
    experiences.
    
    Have a good day
    
    Len
    

    
    Well, I've read this not a few times since it was written and I can't
    beleive that no one has responded to say that it sounds unhealthy....
    I feel that way...i can understand about getting lows during the day
    and trying to keep your blood sugar up etc... but with candy?? it would
    seem that it might pick you up for a little while and i would suspect
    that you would have a big drop in your blood sugar soon after making
    you
    feel worse.. yes i know you take them every hour which probably
    keeps your sugar up constantly, but why don't you just eat a healthy
    balanced diet which includes maybe 5 or 6 small meals throughout the
    day so you don't experience blood sugar lows..  and eating only
    one meal a day??  just doesn't sound healthy to me....  i don't even
    see how you can get all your nutrients like you say in that one meal.
    it must be a big meal.....  i'm sure you're losing weight like you
    say, but i bet you are losing some lean body mass in addition to the
    fat weight you are losing......
    i'm not trying to discourage you or anything, i admire anyone who
    loses weight etc...beacause i know it is a very difficult thing to
    do but i just don't agree with the way you are going about it.....
    
    Geri
    

    Hi Geri,
    
    The key here is that it is a very small dose of sugar. Each "pill" is
    1.5 calories, so I am taking in 3 to 6 calories of sugar each hour.
    
    The amazing thing is that such a small amount does seem to have an 
    effect.  One reason it is sugar is so it will get into the blood 
    quickly so I can feel the effect and get the "lift".
    
    For most of my life I have used "Candy" to pick me up, but Then it 
    was a whole candy bar, or package of cookies etc. The net result was
    that my sugar level was kept so high that I was constantly storing 
    more fat.  Now I keep it so low that I am constantly burning fat.
    
    I really wonder if I am loosing lean body mass. I don't really know how
    to tell. but I do notice that my skin is not flabby and loose and I do
    not have new wrinkles comming in.
    
    As to the nutrition, I am trying to learn more about what is really 
    needed. But I point out that much of the guidelines on nutrition are
    really aimed at keeping your blood sugar up to an appropriate level 
    on three meals a day. For example, "Eat Complex Carbohydrates because
    they metabolize more slowly" "Eat some fats, they give you 'staying
    power'" and "Eat plenty of protein - it converts to blood sugar 
    in the liver much more slowly" While I am taking the direct approach,
    Keep your blood sugar at a low but functional level by giving it little
    doses VERY FREQUENTLY.
    
    What do you think of that?
    
    Have a good day
    
    Len
    

    Seems to me if the constant doses of sugar approach to steady
    blood-sugar level worked, there would be nutrition literature
    recommending that.  With all the research being done (which you cited
    some of) on blood sugar, appetite, etc, I'm sure it's been tested.  
    
    I wonder how much of it is really *is* the placebo affect referenced in
    the title.  Which doesn't make it bad - anything that works is great. 
    But still, both my knowledge of nutrition and my common sense tell me
    it is better to eat moderate amount of healthy nutritious food than
    constant doses of "content-free" sugar.
    
    I mean, people survive for long periods of time on glucose intravenous
    feeding if they *have* to, but they generally aren't the picture of
    health.
    
    [21~

    RE -1
    
    Yes those maintained on intraveneous feeding of glucose aren't the
    picture of health, but they weren't too hot to start with, and if they
    don't die from some other cause than nutrition then they are much
    better after this period than they were before. But this is too much
    reasoning with hidden agendas.
    
    If anyone knows of any research around the idea of frequent small doses
    of Sugar, I would be very interested.
    
    Also I have thought to do some ad hoc research myself, Does anyone know
    what kind of accuracy the Blood Sugar Monitors that are available for
    Diabetes Patients have?  By that I mean, how small of a difference can
    they read, and how reliable is that kind of a reading?
    
    Thanks
    
    Len
    

    I would think those blood sugar monitors would be able to read
    accurately enough that any blood sugar change that would significantly
    affect your body functioning would register.  Otherwise it wouldn't do
    much good...
    
    D!

.7> Seems to me if the constant doses of sugar approach to steady
.7> blood-sugar level worked, there would be nutrition literature
.7> recommending that.
    
    In Len's case, he says he's borderline hypoglycemic (.2), so for him, 
    steady ingestion of small amounts of sugar should have a stabilizing
    effect on his blood sugar.
    
    Some hypoglycemics are told by their doctors to snack every hour or 
    two, all day long, to keep their blood sugar levels up.  So this tie
    between snacking and blood sugar is real for hypoglycemics.

        Some hypoglycemics are told by their doctors to snack every hour or
        two, all day long,
    
    Yes, but aren't most hypoglycemics also told to avoid sugar, because it
    causes swings in blood sugar?  I wasn't questioning the "frequent food"
    aspect, but the *sugar* aspect.
    
    D!

    it would be interesting to find out how much muscle len is loosing
    along with the fat that he is loosing.  By fasting like this his body
    is forced to take the easiest sources of energy.  I would suspect from
    what I have read that he has lost well over 10 pounds of muscle.  At my
    age I find that is hard to replace.  I have given up on fasting diets
    because of that. 

    re:.11
    The hypoglycemics I know who snack, snack on sugary foods like regular
    soda and chocolate chip cookies.
    
    re:.12
    The most handy source of energy isn't muscle, it's glucose (blood
    sugar).  Next handiest is glycogen (sugar stored in tissues).

    yes, you're right of course, but notice I said easiest sources.  
    and most people have about a very small supply of both sugars.  
    and don't forget the stores in glands. and after that the liver 
    kicks in so the brain can get some food (glucose).  If it doesn't the 
    body starts to shut down (metabolism drops).  
    
    Be sure to drink lots of water.  
    
    rich

    Hi, 
    
    I would very muck like to know how much muscle I am loosing too. Can
    anyone suggest a reasonable way of finding out? I have tried the
    Sybervision approach which involves weight and waist line measurement
    for men.  It seems to not be right, since as I first lost weight, I
    could see loss of fat but my waist measurement at widest point did not
    change for some time.
    
    I noticed first that I could reach much farther up my back than before
    Then I started to see a reduction in the width of my face, starting by 
    the ears and moving down. Then I started to see a reduction in Abdomen 
    size but again starting at the top (near the rib cage, In fact I
    discovered my zygot sp? - the lump on the bottom of teh breast bone for
    the first time in years)  I now look in the mirror and notice a
    definite narrowing from the top of the rib cage down to the middle of
    the abdomen. I love it. 
    
    There is stilll lots to go, I still have a real "Spare Tire" but this 
    is exciting to me.
    
    The last about 3 weeks I have plateaued, at about 254. Part of this is
    that I have had a respiratory infection and been much less able to
    judge the right amount of "sugar pills" so I have tended to eat more.
    
    It does seem that my body has gone into the "starvation" mode in
    adapting to very few calories, since I seem to be maintaining this
    weight with more than I was eating but still not a lot more than a 
    thousand calories.
    
    Again if someone has a suggestion about how to find about real lean
    body mass (like where does one get in touch with people capable of
    doing hydrostatic weighing?) I would appreciate it.
    
    I still have not done very well in starting the exercise. It will be
    interesting to see what breaks through this plateau, Will it be when I
    get over the infection and drop the calories (that should be soon now),
    or will it hang on untill I get serious about exercise.
    
    Frankly it is a fun experiment.
    
    Cheers
    
    Len
    
    

    You needn't go to all the trouble of a water-submersion test to find
    out roughly how much fat/lean/body-weight you have.  That's the most
    accurate, but you can get a reasonable estimate with the caliper test,
    which can be performed by any physical trainer or nutritionist...and
    maybe even doctors?  They do that test here in our Wellness Center -
    don't know where you are located.  (Your node says TEMPE...didn't they
    close down the Tempe, AZ office?)
    
    That helped me a lot...I think of myself as overweight (in my eyes) but
    I got a reading of 15% body fat (from three different measurements at
    different times by different people) so I know that it isn't true.
    
    D!

    Thanks, I'll check with our nurse. Yes this is Tempe AZ, They closed
    The Phoenix Plant and sold the building, They have scheduled the Tempe
    Plant to close about Aug, and they closed the SouthWest Accounts Group
    by merging into two others, But the Sales, Support and Service folks
    are here and will remain.  I am a Field marketing person for Components
    and Peripherals Business Unit and will follow the Sales folks to the
    new offices whenever they figure out where that is.
    
    Have a good day
    
    Len
    

    Personally, I'd go for the dunk.

    My wife bought me one at a local health club.  Call around.  If they
    don't have the set up I bet they know who does.

    Well I found a couple of things. 
    1. The health plan (CIGNA) has a "HELP" exam they offer (Health
    Evaluation and Life Planning). This includes body fat analysis by
    Caliphers and several tests and a discussion about "life planning".
    
    2. There is here in the Phoenix AZ area, a company that has built a
    truck with a Hydrostatic Weighing setup in it. They go to different
    Health Clubs and offer the service. It is comming near me next week and
    the cost is $20.
    
    I chatted with the owner of this organization and he said he is the
    only one in the country and is looking for ways to expand to other
    areas. What do you all think about this kind of a service? should it be
    expanded to other areas?
    
    So I will be getting my body fat analyzed both ways. It will be
    interesting to see the difference.
    
    Have a good day
    
    Len
    

	Sounds great Len, let us know the results!

	There's a health club in Marlboro, Mass.  that does the "dunk",
	for $20 if you have a group.  Those stats are at least a year
	old, so I'm not sure if the price (or the club!) has changed.

	Karen

    Here is the results.
    
    There was quite a bit of difference between the two measurements.
    
    the tests were 9 days apart. Both measured a weight of 250 lbs. But the
    Hydrostatic got a LBM of 186.4 and the Calipers got a LBM of 170.25.
    
    In doing the Hydrostatic they did not make any attempt to measure the
    residual air volume in my lungs. They estimated it (from a program) at
    2332 ml. Is this normally measured? if so how?
    
    In doing the Calipers test they measured 3 points only (waist, and 2
    upper chest near the arms) This seemed like a lot of possible variation
    because of loosing weight in different places at a time.
    
    So I would assume the "dunk" is more accurate.
    
    They both got a resting pulse of 64.
    
    The Endurance Test (on a stationary bicycle) got a VO2 max of 44 (I
    think that is the right units) that supposedly is equivalent of running
    1.5 miles in 12 minutes (I doubt I could really do that)
    
    So Overall the 50 lbs loss in a Starvation mode did not seem to hurt me
    in any way that I can see. It did help me be able to exercise more
    easily. And I am still working on establishing a regular exercise
    pattern.  My exercise of choice is riding the Bicycle to work (10
    miles) since it takes less of my overall time because It takes time to
    get to work anyway, and it fits the "clean Air" stuff. Also this is
    because I live in Arizona and the weather is very ameanable to riding a
    bike to work. I do it without any jacket (the kids have started
    swimming in our unheated pool too)  Sorry but reading about the
    Blizzard in the east, I had to throw that in so you all could dream of
    nicer weather. (don't know what I will do about the bike in Summer, but
    I am doubtful I will ride it to work, I would be soaked with sweat).
    
    Summary: I found a big variation between the two methods of measuring
    Lean Body Mass. I too would assume the Hydrostatic is more accurate,
    but I am concerned about the measurement of residual air volume since
    it seems to me that this could make a big difference.
    
    Have a good day
    
    Len
    

	Len,

	I had the "dunk" two times.  Both times, I had to breathe into
	a lung capacity meter before the dunk.  My tests were a couple
	years apart, and my LBM was exactly one pound more the second
	time.  I had gained weight then lost it again between the two tests,
	and weighed one pound less at the second dunk.  I found it
	to be very consistent, and know from my certification training that
	it is the most reliable measure of body fat.
	I measured 17.88% body fat on the second dunk.

	I also had my fat tested by electrical impedence between the two
	dunks.  That listed my body fat at 30%.  The only way that could
	have been true at that time was if I had lost 10 pounds of LBM.
	I know that I hadn't, so I place absolutely no faith in that 
	measurement.
	
	Karen

    re:.22
    
    Barring a capacity meter, they should have told you to exhale as much
    air as possible.

    Yes Mike,
    
    They did tell me to exhale as much as possible, and then they "coached"
    me even while I was in the water. They also told me to stay down and
    exhale as long as I could, so when I felt I couldn't push out any more
    I held for a few seconds and pushed out a few more bubbles.
    
    They also did the weighing three times to check for repeatability.
    
    Any Ideas on the accuracy of just assuming the residual volume?
    
    Thanks
    
    Len
    

    	
    	Mike,
    
    	I had the capacity test, plus was told to exhale as much as
    	possible.
    
    	Karen

    Then it sounds like they did it correctly.

    The good news: I will have some time to write up the information on my
    experience with the "appeteite control by sugar pills and water" or
    whatever it ends up being called.
    
    The bad news: I will not be able to post it here. I got "the package"
    and tomorrow is my last day worked.
    
    If anyone wants to follow up with me, feel free to drop me a note or
    give me a call.
    
    Len F. Winmill
    537 S. Spur
    Mesa AZ 85204
    (602)844-2716
    
    Best to all of you, I am sure that this will work out well for me.
    
    Thanks
    
    Len