Conference rocks::weight_control

I will start off with a question.  I have been on (or rather 'going to')
Weight Watchers for the better part of 7 years.  I have lost all of my
extra weight and since getting married 6+ years ago, have gained it all
back.  For the last year and a half I have pretty much maintained my
weight within the same 10 pounds, losing a few, gaining a few, losing a few,
etc, etc, etc, ad nauseum.

I have come to the conclusion that I have this obsession with food.  That is
the only word I can think of to describe the situation.  Even when I am being
perfectly in control on the WW program, it still seems that all I ever think
about is food.  And when I'm not in control, well, just look out.  Because 
this obsession is the drive behind everything I think and do.  It's scary
sometimes.

So my question is.....has the fasting helped any of you to break the 
obsession with food?  Or has it made it worse?  I seem to think that I would
be perfectly happy if I never had to worry about eating again, but once I 
start, it's all over.  Would a 16 week fast help me to not be obsessed with
food, besides getting me pretty close to my goal weight and at the same time
give me something to fight for when I start eating again (that is, keeping
the weight off)?  At this point, one legal day on WW seems meaningless when
I have at least 65 pounds to lose.  But I think that if I could just lose
it and get over the obsession then I would be able to maintain control and
keep the weight off.

Any comments on this from those who have participated in a fasting program
would be GREATLY appreciated.

Thanks.....Susan

P.S.  I have not approached my husband with this idea of Medi-fast so I'm
looking for real life experiences to tell him about when I talk to him
about joining the program...if I decide to.  Thanks...S

    Well,  I'll try not to be too long winded, but I'll give you some
    of my input.  I'm on my 7th week of Medifast.  (I'm just going to
    do this in bullet form..)
    
    - First, be ready to do the fast.  Meaning, make it the most important
      thing to you for the duration of the fast.  Make the commitment
      to rid the house of any tempting foods, be ready to be assertive
      to friends and family who don't quite understand the concept of
      "a fast is a TOTAL fast". "No thank you, I really can't have just
       one special dinner with you tonight!" 
    
    - I'm not sure if my fasting is going to cure my obsession with
    food.  In fact, I'm pretty sure it won't, but it is giving me a
    lot of time to think.  And it's different, then the thinking I've
    done while doing other diets.  I don't quite know how to explain
    it, but when you're completely free from food, you see things 
    differently.  For example:  I went out to dinner with some friends
    a few weeks ago (about 8 of us).  And it was an Italian place that
    served large portions.  Everyone ate their dinner, while I sipped
    my coffee.  When everyone was finished eating, I realized that all
    the people who were normal weights didn't finish their plates. 
    But the people who were overweight, had cleaned their plates.  Now
    I know this isn't a revalation or anything, but it seemed to hit
    home to me, because if I had been eating, I would've finished my
    plate also.  But if I want to maintain a normal weight, I'm going
    to have to learn NOT to finish my plate if the portions are huge!
    Anyway - like I said, there isn't anything new to this thinking,
    but things like this seem more intense and emotional while I'm fasting
    then before.  I think the quality of my thinking about my weight
    problem is much improved while I'm fasting.
    
    - Another thing is - fasting is NO fun!  I don't ever want to have
    to do this again, so it seems more important to me to keep the weight
    off, then before.  Also, while you're fasting, and getting NO food,
    even sticking to a legal WW program seems like a smorgasborg!  So
    I'm hoping that when I start eating again, I'm going to be satisfied
    with the WW maintenance plan (so long as I don't re-test the waters
    of overeating).              
    
    - Lastly - it's been very expensive, and a very drastic change in
    my lifestyle during the fast, but I've very glad I chose to do it.
    It's working and losing the weight is giving me a positive outlook
    on controlling my weight.  I was doing weight watchers (unsuccessfully)
    before I started the fast, but I was SO depressed about my weight,
    and not losing it, that I just wasn't in the right mind frame to
    follow the program.  The success at fasting, has given me back a
    positive outlook, and the energy to follow a good maintenance plan
    when I'm all done with the fast.
    
    Good luck whatever you decide to do.
    
    - Molly -

    Forgot to mention something else - I know this isn't the question
    you asked in .1, but you mention in your P.S. about your husband.
    Something that I didn't realize when I started this, is how much
    it also affects those people around you.  My boyfriend is extremely
    supportive of my fasting, but it has been difficult for him also.
    I hear him on the phone explaining to his parents/friends that "Molly's
    on a fast, so could we wait a couple of months to get together for
    the barbeque", etc.  We don't postpone everything (I'll go to some
    food related functions, but there are some that it's easier for
    me to skip until after the fast.)  Anyway - when you're talking
    with your husband about the fast, understand that chances are it
    will affect him more than just his having to support you during
    your fast.  I'm not sure who's more anxious for my fast to be finished,
    me or my boyfriend!!  :-)  
             
    Sorry for the unsolicited input, but since this fasting stuff is
    fairly new to me, I've been doing lots of thinking about it!
    
    - Molly -
    

    Hello
    
    I am now in my fourth week of refeeding.  And let me tell you that
    I am still constantly thinking about food.  While I was fasting
    the thought of food was also usually on my brain.  I don't think
    you really ever get "cured", it's just a matter of learning how
    to control this compulsion.  So far, my overall evaluation of the
    program is excellent.  I just don't recommend Leominster Hospital.
    I think they need to get their act together or get more professional
    individuals to run the program.
    
    The fasting was not easy, as you probably imagined.  It is a total
    commitment for everyone (as -1 mentioned).  It affects family, friends
    and the people you work with.  Think about it - what can you do
    that does not involve food.  I tried the malls when I was fasting,
    forget it - Papa Gino's, Fanny Farmer, hot pretzels, etc. etc. etc.
    If you go to a friends house to play cards or something, there's
    always chips or pretzels on the tables.
    
    You really have to be committed and determined.  I have lost 50+
    pounds so far, but my mind set has not changed.  I have to try to
    force myself to think of something other than food.  I keep myself
    very busy these days, you'd better believe.  I do more crafts and
    less cooking.
    
    My husband was a great support through the fasting.  He did just
    about all of the cooking and groceries (what little we did).  He
    took care of the kidsif I wasn't up to it (two children ages 3.3 
    years and 11 months).  I think you really need someone that's going 
    to help you in this way, not just someone to say, "you shouldn't
    eat this or shouldn't do that" because that's as  frustrating as all
    hell.
    
    Good luck and whatever weightloss method you choose, be sure to
    log your process.  If you have any questions, feel free to send
    me mail off-line at USCTR2::DFONTAINE.
    
    Also, you may want to read my progress notes file (402) or Joel
    Jaffe's notes (380) to get a better idea of some bridges we had
    to cross.
    
    Donna
     

    I think Molly and Donna said it all and exactly as I see it. If
    you want additional support, call or write.  joel
    

    
    I've tried all the English ones (because I live in England), like
    the Cambridge diet etc but I find that I'm allergic to the milk
    that is in these drinks.  I don't know why but whenever I try it
    I'm violently sick and everything and have to come off of it within
    a day.  Does anybody out there know of a fasting diet I could do
    without any milk substance in it?  I can drink ordinary milk whether
    it be skimmed or full fat or what ever.  
    
    Thanks in advance ...... Marie
    
    P.S.  They must be ones that I can obtain in England (which I suppose
    cuts out the American content in this note.  Sorry.)

    Hi,
    
    I know this isn't really considered a total fasting program, but
    I'm attempting the Slim-Fast program.  This is only my third day,
    but so far I haven't been hungry at all.  Usually the first few
    days of any diet I try is really tough, but for some reason, it's
    been pretty easy for me.  It might be the fact that I've finally
    decided that this is it.  I'm also listening to a subliminal/self-
    hypnosis weight-loss tape, which I really think is helping.  Whatever
    it is, I feel very positive and enthusiastic about it!! 
    Has anyone out there ever done Slim-Fast??? I'd appreciate any comments
    you can give me about it.....
    
    Thanks!!!

	Thanks for all the replies sso far.  Here's a question for the
	fasters out there who are women....Has the fast had any effect
	on your cycle?  Have you experienced heavier or lighter menstrual
	flow while on the fast?  Cramps worse or not as bad as usual?  Any
	difference at all from your regular cycle?

	Thanks for the reference to Joel's chronicle note 380 or thereabouts.
	I read through it last night and was greatly encouraged.  I have one
	question that I can't seem to find information about elsewhere in
	this file, although I know it has been discussed.  Ketosis was 
	mentioned by Joel just briefly in a statement like...I am feeling the
	effects of ketosis...of course, not an exact quote.

	But what is ketosis and what are the effects that Joel was feeling?

	Thanks so much for the time you are taking to answer my questions.  I
	don't like going into something like this totally ignorant, so I 
	really appreciate the information you are giving here.

	-Susan

    Be prepared for a lot of money.  We may run out of money with my
    iwfe and I on the medi-fast program long before we run out of weight
    to loose.  I think I'll switch over to the slim-fast program.  I
    don't believe that its the program, I think its the state of mind.
    If your ready to loose, then it'll happen.  I'm being to think
    that medifast is a medically supervised FAD diet.  not to discourge
    anyone from getting on it, but  I think cheaper alternatives.  WW
    should work.  But if you go to WW and stop off at the pizza shop
    on the way home, its going to fail.
    
    The good think about MEDIFAST is that we're never hungry.  Thats
    the big beef I have w2ith the doctor.  If I don't feel like eating,
    bwhy should I gorge myself with a foced feeding.  That only reenforces
    my old bad habit.  I understand that I NEED protiens and all that
    stuff, but surely another way must exist.
    just my thoughts.
    ed
    

RE: Woman's cycles
I haven't noticed any change in my cycle at all.  But my body has never been
affected much by my cycle anyway (no cramps, or anything).

When I signed up for Medifast, they gave me a sheet on Ketosis.  Here is is:
(Copied without permission.  My comments are in (* *).)

- Molly -  


			KETOSIS

A protein-sparing modified fast (such as the Medifast program)
allows preservation of lean body mass (muscle) while fat stores
are lost.

Ketones are normal metabolic products of fat and are used as fuel
by the brain and muscles.  When ketones are produced excessively,
some are excreted in the urine and the breath.  Ketones in the
urine may be measured in the laboratory.  Ketones in the breath 
give it an unusual odor similar to nail polish remover.  (* Another
reason my boyfriend will be glad when this is over - he says he can
definately smell the nail polishy smell on my breath *).

While on Medifast, the body is in a continual state of ketosis.
The Medifast provides sufficient protein of high biological value
to meet daily requirements.  The ketones indicate that the body
is burning fat.

Carbohydrate intake will stop ketosis.  The body prefers to utilize
glucose (a carbohydrate) for fuel.  If carbohydrate is present, the
inclination is to use it first, rather than fat.  Thus, even small
amounts of fruits, starchy vegetables (potato, carrots, tomatoes,
beets, etc.), and grains (bread, pasta, crackers, popcorn, rice and
so on) will stop ketosis.

Even if calorie intake is low, if carbohydrate is eaten and the
individual goes out of ketosis, weight loss will be minimal.

IT IS ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL THAT NO CARBOHYDRATE BE CONSUMED IN
ADDITION TO MEDIFAST IF WEIGHT LOSS IS TO OCCUR.
Ketosis produces a loss of appetite, sometimes mild nausea, sometimes
mild euphoria, and an increased sense of energy.
(* I have noticed that I have more energy, and a definate loss of appetite.
    I haven't experienced the nausea, or euphoria. *)
    
Adequate water intake is necessary both to prevent dehydration and
to flush ketones out of the body.  Metablolism levels are higher
when fewer ketones are detected by the body.  Thus, water actually
helps to keep metabolism up and more calories are burned.
    

    Medifast is the old Dr. Atkins diet all over again!  I lost weight
    on that one years ago.  In fact, I have both of his books.  It was
    an easy diet to follow, and it worked like a charm -- the fat just
    melted off.  Basically, it was a diet that consisted of 100% proteins
    and fats.  You could eat all of those two food categories you could
    stuff into your mouth, but *no* carbohydrates.  That meant no sweets,
    no breads, no vegetables, no fruits.  I lost weight on lobster with
    drawn butter, charcoaled steaks, and cream sauces.
    
    The book explains ketosis in detail.  The complete lack of
    carbohydrates puts your body into a state of ketosis.  You buy a
    product called "Ketosticks" at the pharmacy (they all carry them),
    and use them to measure the ketones in your urine.  As long as you're
    excreting ketones, you know you're losing weight.
    
    The diet had many advantages.  You could eat your fill of rich,
    bad-for-you foods.  And the Ketosticks gave you daily tangible
    reassurance that the diet was working.
    
    I only needed to lose about 10 pounds at the time, and it came off
    easily and quickly.  'Course it went back on just as quickly and
    easily when I went back on carbohydrates.  But I had no medical
    supervision and no one to gradually introduce me back into normal
    eating habits.  Sounds like Medifast has taken an old principle
    and added some common-sense things to come up with a valid way of
    taking off weight.
    
    							Pat

    REPLY .7:
    
    Be careful for any protein drinks which aren't medically supervised.
    Some have a very high calorie content.  READ LABELS.  You very well
    could be getting as many calories in one drink as you would be if
    you ate a meal.  Be on guard.  To give you an idea of the calorie
    content in one Opti-Fast drink, each has 84 calories bringing your
    daily caloric intake to 420 (fasting phase only).  I'm not sure what 
    the Slim-Fast content is, but beware.
    
    REPLY .8: When I started the fasting (Opti-Fast) I had very normal
    cycles.  A few complained of no cycle at all or having their cycle
    every other week.  The physician said it's nothing to worry about
    that your body is just going through a tremendous shock.  Well,
    I was into the last 6 weeks or so of the diet when I started having
    my cycle every other week.  I was not a happy camper, let me tell
    you.  Especially because you tend to have water retention around
    these times and you don't see as good a weight-loss.  As far as
    cramps, I really didn't notice any change, although everybody is
    different.  One happens to one, does not necessarily happen to another.
    My cycles would last just as long as a regular one and they had
    the same flow.  Now that I started eating regularly, I am now on
    my normal cycle again.
    
    Hope this helps
    
    Donna
    

    I lost about 30 pounds on Atkins in high school, and I have to disagree a
    bit with Pat's presentation of it.  Atkins doesn't prohibit carbohydrates
    altogether.  You start at 0 grams, and gradually add more until you come
    out of ketosis (self-testing with ketostix).  Then you back off a bit. 
    Different people have different sensitivities.  My father lost 40 pounds
    on Atkins some years ago, and has kept it off by severely restricting his
    carbohydrate intake.  Even though his fat intake is high by WW standards,
    his cholesterol and triglycerides are okay.  According to Atkins, this is
    expected because the body needs the  carbohydrates to metabolize the fats
    into bad things.  Without them, most of the fat just passes through.

    I didn't immediately regain weight when I stopped religiously following
    Atkins; I was all right for quite a while.  I still think that it gets
    more bad press than it deserves (mostly from people who haven't read his
    book, and who wildly misrepresent his claims), even though I'm now a
    successful (mostly :-) follower of WW.

    Atkins is certainly not the same as Medifast -- I believe the protein
    fasts restrict fat as well as carbohydrate, and even the protein intake
    is limited.  Atkins claims that his approach is a reasonable and healthy
    way to eat for the rest of your life (for my father, it has been);
    Medifast makes no such claims.

    I can't believe this!! Now that I've read everyones notes on Ketosis,
    it seems as though Slim-Fast will be a disaster, since it allows
    fruits and vegetables, even starchy potatoes!!  Actually, I haven't
    eaten any potatoes cuz I figured I'd lose faster........so what
    should I do????  Does lettuce, brocolli or spinach have many or
    any carbohydrates??? Oh no!! What about the milk I use for the
    shakes??? Loads of carbs in that!! I think I'm doomed!!  Anyone
    have any suggestions?? Should I quit now??  Has anyone lost a
    considerable amount of weight using Slim-Fast??? Before reading
    about Ketosis, I was so psyched for this!!! HELP!!!!!!
    

    For problems with the Opti Fast Program, please read note 455.
    
    Thanks...
    
    Bonnie
    

    FOR NOTES 445.7 & 445.14
    
    I have been doing Slim-Fast since January 5th and have lost 33 pounds.
    I really like it and it does fill me up, plus the fact that I was
    ready to start dieting.  My goal was 40 pounds, and these last few
    pounds seem so far away, but I'll do it.
    
    I started by doing Slim-Fast for breakfast and lunch, but I was
    never a breakfast eater, even when I was a kid, so I cut the one
    out in the morning and drink 2 big glasses of water and then do
    Slim-Fast for lunch.  I really am not hungry during the day.
    
    If I have lunch then I do Slim-Fast for supper with a Slim-Fast
    wafer bar, which are not all that bad.  I prefer the chocolate because
    I love chocolate.  I have had the strawberry, which isn't too bad,
    but I don't like the vanilla, but everyone has their own likes and
    dislikes.
    
    All I can say is, it's worth the try.  If you would like any other
    info or support you an reach me by mail on MSBCS::GREGOIRE.
    
    One more thing -- the hardest point I had to deal with was now that
    I have lost this weight I have to watch what I eat forever.  You
    can cheat, but you still have to watch out for those calories.
    
    Joan
    

Well, I have my appointment for the initial assessment this Friday at 5:30 at 
Health Stop in Leominster.  Now I just have to come up with the money to pay 
for it by then!!  My questions this time is to those of you who have done Medi 
or Opti-fast and have gotten coverage by John Hancock.  How long has it taken 
before you found out whether or not JH would even cover you for the program?
Health Stop no longer bills directly to any insurance companies, so I will 
have to pay them and submit the bills myself.  Then wait and hope that JH will
reimburse me.  I'm not sure how long I can stay with the program if they don't 
cover me, but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.  Any replies would be
greatly appreciated.

Thanks,   Susan

    I'm not sure how you could find out ahead of time if JH is going
    to pay for it or not.  But one thing I was told when I did the
    Medifast, was that there has to be a "diagnosis" listed on the
    bills/paperwork that you turn in.  I lucked out in that I had a
    high cholesteral level, so my diagnosis was "hypercholesteremia"
    (or something like that).  I think they're looking for
    something like high blood pressure, or other health related risks
    that would be reduced by the person losing weight.  I'm not sure
    if they would except just "obesity" as the diagnosis.
                           
    - Molly -

    	Extremely low-calorie diet plans can be dangerous and even deadly
    if used improperly, or by the wrong people, researchers warn in a
    report published in the Journal of the American Medical Association.

    	The report cautions that the current enthusiasm for powdered-
    formula diets - sparked in large part by television star Oprah
    Winfrey's much-publicized weight loss - could lead to a wave of health
    problems and fatalities similar to what followed the use of liquid-
    protein diets in the mid 1970s and the Cambridge Diet (a protein-
    formula diet) in the early 1980s.

    	"We are particularly alarmed by the consumption of very-low-calorie
    diets by persons who are not severely overweight, or who do not
    receive appropriate medical supervision," said the report, which was
    cowritten by Thomas A Wadden, an obesity expert at the University of
    Pennsylvania School of Medicine.

    	The report, which reviews the safety of very-low-calorie diets,
    said that "at least 58 deaths were reported among users of liquid-
    protein products, and 6 deaths in persons who consumed the Cambridge
    Diet."

    	The report points out that powdered-formula diets, which typically
    contain no more than 400 to 800 calories per day, can cause short-term
    health problems such as dehydration, nausea, and muscle cramps, as
    well as serious problems such as irregular heartbeats and inflammation
    of the gallbladder and pancreas.

    	The report said, however, that a very-low-calorie diet can be both
    safe and effective for obese persons if the regimen is done under
    medical supervision, and if it combines dieting with a program
    designed to bring about positive changes in eating and exercise
    habits.

    	[...]

    	The rapid weight loss associated with powdered-formula diets has
    made them appealing not only to obese people, but also to people who
    merely need to lose a small amount of weight. In the journal article,
    Wadden and his colleagues say the use of the products by persons who
    are mildly overweight is an "alarming practice" that could prove
    "particularly hazardous".

    	Wadden, who also serves as a consultant to Sandoz Nutrition Co,
    manufacturers of a powdered-formula diet product, said in a
    interview that, even if a very-low-calorie diet allows a person to
    lose weight, keeping the weight off if difficult.  Winfrey had to
    admit in a show last November that she had regained 17 of the 67
    pounds she lost.

             Providence Journal-Bulletin,  pA-1,A-6, 5.Jan.1990