Conference rocks::weight_control

    Most diets fail because they ask us to limit the amount of food
    we take in and therefore to be hungry most of the time.  Denying
    our hunger drive and restricting the intake of food takes great
    effort and results in misery and pain.  Most dieters are labeled
    failures, since up to 95% of them regain all or some of the weight
    they lost.
    
    Certainly our hunger drive was not meant to cause us problems with
    health and weight.  One reasonable question that might be asked
    is whether, by some error in nature, our stomachs were made too
    big for our bodies, so that when we fill them up we take in too
    many calories.  Such mistakes are not likely to occur in nature.
    The most reasonable answer is that our stomachs are best suited
    for a diet of starches.  There is a diet BEST-suited for humans,
    just like there's a diet for horses, cows, cats, wolves, birds,
    and all the creatures on God's earth.  
    
    Glenn

    
    Do starches, fruit, etc. also leave the stomach faster than, let's
    say, meat?  I'm asking this because when I was doing what you suggest,
    I found that I was hungry AGAIN a lot sooner than when I was eating
    meat.  If there is no difference, then I would have to assume that
    an empty stomach is not the only reason for being hungry.  A need
    for more calories to maintain one's present weight (if that is
    desirable) might also be a reason to be hungry (I know you will correct
    me if I am wrong).  Anyway, I don't really know, but I am hoping
    you can shed some light on this.

    Hi Darlene.
    
    Here's a paragraph that addresses your question:
    
    "The quick return of hunger is well known on high-vegetable diets.
    Certainly you have heard the famous complaint about Chinese food:
    'I'm hungry an hour after I leave the table.' The sensation of fullness
    you get from a starch-centered meal is different from that obtained
    from a great lump of muscle and fat that is served on the rich western
    diet.  Soon you will adjust and find that starches, vegetables,
    and fruits are very satisfying without the indigestion son common
    after a high-fat meal"
    
    Does that answer it Darlene?
    
    Glenn

    Another note:  I am on the Weight Loss Clinic Plan, and they have
    recommended that a small portion of protein be consumed with each meal. 
    This helps you to keep that "full" feeling.  Also, if you begin to get
    hungry an hour or so after you eat, that is an excellant time to drink
    water and keep the stomach full; you'll get double benefit!
    
    Val  

    
RE .3
    >Soon you will adjust and find that starches, vegetables, and
    >fruits are very satisfying without the indigestion son common 
    >after a high-fat meal
    
    This says to me that my hunger drive is not correct, and that I
    must get used to this other way of eating.  On the other hand, if
    I'm hungry again, I should just eat, right?  You said that we can
    eat as much as we "want" (or as much as our hunger tells us we want)
    without worrying about weight gain.  Well, I really don't have
    the time to eat constantly, nor do I want to subject my digestive
    system to constant work.  Therefore, I should just wait to "adjust"
    to  this different sensation of fullness (read, go hungry for a
    while).  I do agree that this is the best health supporting diet,
    but I need something more.  The protein was a good idea, but which
    non-meat/by-products foods are high in protein (besides nuts which
    are also high in fat)?
    
    d.

>>    but I need something more.  The protein was a good idea, but which
>>    non-meat/by-products foods are high in protein (besides nuts which
>>    are also high in fat)?
  

Beans, peas, lentils, soy beans, whole grain breads, cereals and pastas..
all are excellent protein!

A peanut butter on whole wheat bread is very good protein, a bowl of
vegetable chili (made with beans, veg and all the spice) is excellent, 
pea soup, lentil soup, mashed beans made into pate's for sandwhiches.. 
all excellent protein.  Pastas made with partial soy flour are boosted 
sources, soy milk cooked into sauces breads and cakes. Brown rice and
beans is a combination high in protein, barley soups,... in fact soup
is a good way to cook in lots of goodness, low in cals and salt, high
in fibre and taste.

We started using chopped cooked pinto beans in place of ground meat in
most of our cooking... the meals are wonderful and there is no grease
on the plates afterwards and no indigestion often experienced with 
ground meats.  I use cooked chopped soy beans in spaghetti sauce and
on whole wheat pizzas along with all the other trimmings.  I recently
had a pate' made with mashed soy beans, herbs, a starch and other natural
ingredients that was great!!!  It was fat free, low in cals and wonderful
tasting.  

Beans!  strange as it sounds, they are the way to go!!  ;-)

gailann

    Darlene,
    
    Re:protein
    
    			High Protein Vegetable Foods
    
    		celery			asparagus
    		artichokes		mushrooms
    		navy beans		tofu
    		peas			spinach
    		lentils			tempeh
    		soybeans		yeast
    		lettuce
    
    			Medium Protein Vegetable Foods
    
    		chestnuts		almonds
    		sweet potatoes		corn
    		oranges			spaghetti
    		rice			oatmeal
    		yams			onions
    		honeydew melons		whole wheat bread
    		white potatoes
    
    
    FYI
    
    Glenn

    
    Glenn, what is the source for your list of high and medium protein
    vegetable foods?  Some of them (the beans) fit my perceptions; others
    (celery, lettuce, mushrooms) are definitely not on my list of protein
    sources.
    
    Beverly
    

    My source is The Department of Agriculture through "the McDougall 
    Plan".   I can expand the list if you wish, to encompass more 
    information.
    
    
    
    
    Protein, fat and carbohydrate (CHO) content expressed as percent
    (%) of total calories and the calorie concentration expressed as
    calories per gram (cl/gm) of selected foods.  Reported as cooked
    food unless otherwise stated.  Percentages do not always equal 100%
    becuase of the base line data used.  Data obtained from Nutritive
    Value of American Foods in Common Units, Agriculture Handbook Number
    456.
    
    			% Calories From
                                                   Calories
						concentration
    Food		Protein	Fat	CHO	 calories/gm
    
       MEDIUM-PROTEIN VEGETABLE FOODS
    Chestnuts		6	7	87	1.94
    Sweet Potatoes	6	3	92	1.02
    Oranges		8	4      100	0.35
    Rice (brown)	8	5	86	0.73
    Yams, raw		8	2	92	0.87
    Honeydew Melons	10	8	93	0.33
    White Potatoes	11	1	90	0.57
    Almonds		12     82	13	5.98
    Corn		12	8	94	0.84
    Spaghetti (white)   14	3	81	1.13
    Oatmeal		15     16	71	0.55
    Onions		16	3	92	0.37
    Whole Wheat Bread	16	5	85	3.33
    	
       HIGH-PROTEIN VEGETABLE FOODS
    
    Celery		21	6	92	0.15
    Artichokes		22	3	75	0.21
    Navy Beans		26	4	72	1.18
    Peas		28	4	68	0.84
    Lentils		29	7	71	1.06
    Soybeans		34	40	33	1.30
    Lettuce		34	13	71	0.14
    Asparagus		38	7	77	0.26
    Mushrooms		38	9	62	0.28
    Tofu		44	.....Not listed.....
    Spinach		49	11	66	0.26
    Tempeh		49	.....Not listed.....
    Yeast, bakers	57 	4	52	0.86
    
    This is the information I have, but note that it is not all-inclusive.
    There are other foods that fit into the above listed categories,
    but I choose not to go through the entire list and pick them all
    out.

    re .9 - This is VERY misleading!  Using the percentage method,
    sure, lettuce is fairly high in protein.  What you don't say
    is that lettuce is so low in calories that to get a noticable
    amount of protein from lettuce you must eat several heads of
    it!  It's just not reasonable to attempt to get your protein
    from lettuce.  
    
    Another thing that's not being stated is that not all protein
    sources contain the complete range of essential amino acids.
    For this reason, if you eat proteins from grains, you may only
    use 1/3 to 1/2 of the protein you eat.  The reason for this is
    simple - if your body needs one unit each of aminos A, B, and
    C to build something, and your protein source provides all three
    aminos in equal proportion, you can use all the aminos.  If
    your protein source provides 10 A, 8 B, and only 3 C, you will
    build 3 of whatever you're building, not any more.  You're limited
    by the amino that's least available in the protein source.  To
    a certain extent you can overcome this by eating a variety of
    plant-source proteins.  However, there are some aminos that are not
    abundant in any plant source, so you will always need to eat more
    total protein from plant sources to get the same effect you would
    from animal plus plant sources.
    
    I own a book called "the Composition of Foods".  It's an 8 1/2 x
    11 book put out by the Dept of Agriculture.  It lists thousands
    of entries for foods, breaking them down into grams of protein,
    fat, carb, and listing all the vitamins.  There are two tables -
    one lists the amounts per 100 gms of edible food; the other
    lists the amounts per pound of food as purchased.  This is a very
    useful book when you're trying to compare, say, Red Snapper with
    Haddock, or Artichokes with Endives, or whatever.  With this and
    a good scale there is no longer a need to wonder if what you call
    a small apple is really what the calorie chart calls a small apple.
    
    --Louise

    
    Thanks, Glenn.  These are relative to other vegetables, then; I thought
    you were saying that they were high in protein in an absolute sense
    (ie as high as meat).  I guess I can believe that 21% of celery's
    negligible caloric content is protein; I still wouldn't want to try
    to live on it (chomp, chomp, chomp) :-)!
    
    Do you have similar figures for non-veggies (meat, eggs, dairy), for 
    comparison?  If you don't want to type them in, I could get the booklet
    and do it.  Speaking of which, I'm assuming that it's a US Dept of
    Agriculture publication.  Do I write to USDA or the Government
    publications office to get a copy?
    
    Beverly
    

    Oops, forgot to read the last entry before replying!  Louise, that
    book sounds *really* useful; is it maybe the same book?  Where Do I
    Get One?!?!?
    
    The point about the different amino acids is one of the reasons
    vegetarians sometimes have problems; they may be getting enough
    protein, but they're short on some amino.
    
    I think along with the discussion of where we get protein, and which
    types live where, we need to figure out just how much protein a normal,
    healthy, human needs on a daily basis.
    
    Beverly
    

    You can get the book from the Government Printing Office.  There's
    a Govvie bookstore in the Federal Building in Boston, and very likely
    in the federal buildings in most states (do all states have one?).
    Or you can send away to the federal government to get a listing
    of their publications.  I think the book runs somewhere around $15.
    
    The government has other useful books on nutrition.  I picked up
    a little book on sodium contents of various foods while I was at
    the bookstore.  They also have books on food preparation and
    preservation, as well as rafts of other subjects - military, ecology,
    gardening, geography, travel - you name it!
    
    As far as how much protein you need, it varies widely with body
    weight, body composition, and lifestyle.  I've read quite a bit
    on the subject, since I'm doing bodybuilding, and noone really
    agrees.  Some of the bodybuilding nutritionists (yes, they do have
    degrees) suggest 1 gram per pound of bodyweight, some say more,
    some say less.  Some say that athletes don't need much more than
    other people, some say they need a lot more.  Noone REALLY knows.
    It's kind of hard to get any real info on nutrition from any source.
    The nutrition field seems to be very unscientific at this point
    - it's more at the witch-doctor stage.
    
    What I've ended up doing is experimenting on myself, and doing what
    I feel healthiest doing. My protein intake from animal sources averages
    about 5 oz of meat (skinned and trimmed of fat) and 1-2 eggs worth
    of eggbeaters (eggwhite egg substitute) plus some skim milk.  I'm
    eating a lot of grain products, and veggies and some fruits.  I'm
    taking vitamin and mineral supplements, especially Vit C, which
    you use up when you do heavy physical exercise. (Vit C is washed
    out of your body whenever you lose water from sweat or any other
    means - if you drink lots of water you may need extra C.)  Since
    I cook with very little fat, trim my meat and skin/trim my
    poultry, and eat lots of fish, my diet fits the low-fat, medium
    protein, high carb profile.  It's very high in fiber, also,
    thanks to all the whole grains, veggies, and fruits.

    Did I answer you, Beverly?
    
    --Louise

RE: < Note 200.12 by BEVRLY::KASPER

>    I think along with the discussion of where we get protein, and which
>    types live where, we need to figure out just how much protein a normal,
>    healthy, human needs on a daily basis.
    
Easier said than done. It all depends on who you want to believe. Some sources
are going to tell you high protein, low carbos. Others are going to tell you
low protein, high carbo. 

The more I read about diet and health, the more I find that the right thing for
*me* is low protein, high carbo. One book that really changed my mind about the
way to eat is Jane Brody's Good Food Book. I haven't read McDougall, but I am
planning to. Ms. Brody's book contains a large section on nutrition and a large
section with recipes. Her book has all the nutrition tables it in. She suggests
that we need to reevaluate the way we look at protein. She suggests that a 2
oz. servings of meat is sufficient. She does use diary products, lowfat ones. I
can't remember her credentials, but I know they were believable to me. Her book
has has really helped me change the way I eat. 

    Yes, Louise, you've answered me!  I plan to sit down at some point and
    figure out just how much protein, carbohydrate, and fat I'm taking in
    on Weight Watchers.  I feel healthy on it.  Should be interesting.

    I live in Concord, which is the state capitol of NH.  We have the
    state's Federal building (about a mile from where I live).  I'll check
    there for the books.  Thanks.

    Patti, I realize that the issue of how much protein we need is not at
    all straightforward.  What I'd like to see is how much we on WW eat,
    and how we feel, compared to the folks on McDougall. 

    Beverly

    re: .11
    
    Do you have same info for meat, eggs, dairy?
    
    
                            % Calories From
                           
    Food                       Protein	Fat    CHO  Calories/Gm
    
    Eggs:
     Chicken, raw, whole fresh 	33	65	2 	1.63
     Chicken, whites fresh	85	 7	8	0.51
     Chicken, yolks fresh	19	80	1	3.48
     Duck, whole fresh, raw	28	68	1	1.91
     Goose, whole, fresh, raw	30	65	3	1.85
     Turkey, whole, fresh, raw  31	62	4	1.70
    
    Cheese:
     Natural Blue or Roquefort
      type:			23	75	2	3.68
      Brick			24	74	2	3.70
      Camembert (domestic
        type)			23	74	2	2.99
      Cheddar			25	73	2	3.98
      Cottage cheese		51	36     11	1.06
      Cottage cheese (low-fat)  79	 3     13	0.85
      Cream cheese, regular	 9	91      2	3.74
      Limburger			24	73	3	3.45
      Parmesan			37	60	3	3.93
      Swiss (domestic)		30	68	2	3.70
      Pasteurized processed
       Cheese:
       	American		25	73	2	3.70
    	Pimiento		25	73	2	3.71
    	Swiss			30	68	2	3.55
    
    Meat:
    
    Beef, ground		34	65	0	2.90
    Beef (boneless chuck, lean
      with fat cooked)		32	68	0	3.77
    Beef, T-bone steak, cooked
      (broiled)			16	82	0	4.73
    Chicken:cooked
      (all classes) light meat
      without skin (roasted)	76	18	0	1.66
      dark meat w/o skin
      (roasted)			64	32	0	1.76
      Fryers, fried		49	43	5	2.49
    Lamb, retail cuts:
      leg, raw, lean w/fat	32	66	0	1.86
      loin chops, raw		22	76	0	2.52
    Lobster, northern, cooked	79	14	1	0.95
    Mackerel, Atlantic		37	60	0	2.36
    Oysters, raw		51	25     21	0.66
    Pork, fresh, retail cuts:
      ham, raw			21	78	0	2.62
      loin chops, raw		23	75	0	2.35
      spareribs, raw		16	83	0	2.15
    Veal, rib roast, raw w/bone 36	61	0	1.59
    
    This is what I have Beverly.
    
    In response to Louise, saying that this format is totally misleading,
    I don't think so.  Besides, it's not MY FORMAT, it's from the Dept
    of Agriculture.  
    
    Glenn	

    Protein requirements do indeed differ.  Dr. McDougall recommends
    that 5-10% of your daily caloric intake be in the form of protein.
    The World Health Organization (WHO) recommends 5% and there are
    other studies that say that 2.5% is a minimum. 
    
    But there are dangers of too much protein.  The body can only do
    2 things with nutrients that are ingested; store them or excrete
    them.  In the case of calories, they are stored, predominately around
    peoples' waists.  The body's capacity to store protein is minimal.
    Protein is not stored.  It is excreted and during this excretion 
    of excess protein, it changes the physiology of the kidney 
    and causes CALCIUM to be excreted in the urine.  This is
    the cause of osteoporosis.  Taking calcium pills will help only
    a little.  The secret is to reduce the protein intake.  The more
    protein taken into the body, the more calcium excreted in the urine.
    This is a serious problem for women, who can lose 60% of their bone
    mass and break a rib with a sneeze.  And the key is protein. 
    Kidney stones are a common consequence of prolonged consumption.
    
    So taking in excess protein (greater than 20 grams per day) can
    have devastating effects on the body; osteoporosis and kidney stones
    to start.
    
    Glenn

    That was supposed to read....
    
    Kidney stones are another common consequence of prolonged high-protein
    consumption.
    
    Glenn

    re: .13
    
    >eat lots of fish, my diet fits the low-fat, medium protein, high
    >carb profile.
    
    Louise,
    
    Fish, like all muscles, are high fat, high protein and virtually
    zero carbohydrate and zero fiber as the chart below shows:
    
                             % Calories From
    
    Food 	     Protein    Fat     CHO  calories/gm
    
    Bass		25	55	18	2.59
    Cod			89	 5	 0	1.30
    Flounder		59	37	 0	2.02
    Mackeral		37	60	 0	2.36
    Sturgeon		63	32	 0	1.60	
                                           
    You may not be on the type of diet you think you are.
    
    Glenn

    re .19 - Yes, I have looked up the fat in fish, and no, it does
    not look like your chart.  Is this chart from the McDougall book
    too?  I have heard about 50/50 fact/fiction in the exerpts from
    that book - since it's impossible to really tell when it's fact
    and when it's fiction, I'm taking it all as his opinion.
    
    I'd recommend you go to the source that McD. uses - the Dept. of
    Ag. books themselves.  You might see a different picture.
    
    Regarding fish in specific, you can pick your types of fish to
    assure you aren't eating too much fat.  There are fat and lean
    fishes.  Anything that's 22 calories per ounce (as calculated from
    the Dept of Ag books) can't have much fat in it.  The fish that
    are much above that amount, like salmon, I eat very rarely.  I
    would suspect that McD. took the figures for cooked fish from the
    Dept. of Ag. book, and that those figures include considerable
    fat from cooking.
    
    But, enough of this.  This is my final word on the subject.  I would
    again recommend you buy the source book, and see what it says for
    yourself.
    
    --Louise

    (ps, this is not meant as an attack on you personally.  I simply
    cannot let the postings of such misleading information go unanswered.
    I don't think you understand how they could be misleading, and don't
    think you are purposely trying to mislead.  It's simply the way
    the information is presented, such as lettuce being presented as
    a high-protein food, that is unfortunate.)

    Louise,  it appears to me that you have trouble with the format
    used, as opposed to the facts themselves.  I don't have a problem
    with that, but I don't know if other people do.
    
    The main point is that if you eat the foods that your body is designed
    to handle, then you can eat as much as you want, whenever you want
    and you will remain slim, trim and most importantly healthy.  It's
    almost like putting low octane gasoline into a car that's designed
    to run on high octane.  After a period of time, you'll start having
    problems.  If you feed a horse, chocolate cake and taco chips, after
    a period of time, he will develop illnesses.  We have money, so
    we feast on rich foods 21 times a week and consequently we have
    obesity, heart disease, cancer, atherosclerosis, osteoporosis,
    arthritis, urinary diseases, diabetes, hypertension, bad teeth,
    acne, oily skin, etc. etc.  We results are crystal clear and you
    can only gain by eating properly.  
    
    Glenn

    
    What's misleading about those numbers is that they show percentages of
    calories, instead of numbers of calories per unit measure.
    
    For example, I looked at the nutritional info on 1% and skim milk last
    night.  One cup of each has the SAME amount of protein, measured in
    grams.  The percentages of calories are different because the number
    of calories are different.  The actual amounts aree the same.
    
    This is why I brought up the thorny issue of how much protein and fat
    we really need.  If a food is 100 fat (and non-caloric fiber), is it
    necessarily bad to have 1 gram of it?  This is an extreme example, but
    hopefully you'll see my point.
    
    Beverly
    

    The numbers would be easier to comprehend if the gave information
    per serving instead of per calorie.  Usually we don't know our caloric
    intake, but have an idea of the qauntity.  
    
    -Joe
    

    Joe, it's not exactly in a "per serving" format, but then again
    it is.  On note .19, bass is listed at 2.59 calories per gram.
    There are 28.35 grams per ounce and 16 ounces per pound.  So, if
    for supper you eat 6 ounces of bass then
    
                 2.59 x 28.35 x 6 = You've eaten 441 calories.
    
    Of those 441 calories, 25% (110 calories) are in the form of
    protein, 55% (243 calories) are in the form of fat and 18% (79
    calories) are in the form of carbohydrates.   It's really very simple.
    
    Glenn

    
    Yes, but most packages list amounts of fat and protein as grams, not in
    terms of calories.  I'd rather have it as percentage of total weight.
    
    Beverly
    

    You know, the people in this notes file are trying to lose weight.
    I have given plenty of information in an effort to spur thought,
    conversation and information exchange.  But, I must say that I'm
    surprised by the moaning and groaning.  With the exception of the
    number of you who have mailed messages to me, all I've really heard
    are complaints and doubts.  Well, so be it, continue to eat chocolate,
    cheese, etc. and continue to be sick.  But at some point, the
    inconvenience of being sick and overweight will become bothersome,
    so much that you may even put some effort into your diet.  I apologize
    for the format of the information.  I'm sorry it's not to your exact
    liking and taste.  Please, go through volumes of information and
    put in your own charts in your format.  I'll read it.
    
    Please just remember that the pill pushers, American Dairy Council,
    American Beef Association, and the Jarvik-7 producers will tell
    you whatever will benefit THEM.  They don't give a damn about YOU.
    I'm done!
    
    Glenn

    re .27:
    
    See note 164 for more information on Pritikin/McDougall.
    
    Lynn

    Maureen,
    
    A cup of cooked rice (150 grams) contains 178 calories, which means
    there are only about 1.2 calories per gram of rice.  This is
    approximately one-third the number of calories found in an equivalent
    amount of beef (3.9 calories per gram) or cheese (4.0 calories per
    gram).  An excellent food with which to achieve rapid weight loss
    is the potato, at 0.6 calories per gram or about 85 calories per
    potato.  An average active adult male burns 3000 calories per day.
    To maintain he weight he would need to eat 35 potatoes or 17 cups
    of rice a day.  And that would be very time consuming.  This is
    why McDougall says not to worry about calories.  Eating properly
    means eating low calorie anyway, and you'll lose weight.  I can't
    eat 35 potatoes a day.  What about you?
    
    Glenn

re: 200.29
    
    Glenn,
    
    You mention in the previous note: "A cup of cooked rice (150 grams)
    contains 178 calories ...", now I don't remember the exact figure
    off-hand, but I am pretty sure a cup is NOT 150 grams. In fact,
    I believe a cup is 450 grams more or less (or is it 225 g?).
    
    So, what I am really interested in is: when you say a gram of cooked
    rice contains 1,2 calories, are you basing yourself on grams/cup?
    
    Thanks for your help.
    
    Regards,  Joana

    Joana, 
    
    You're right, a cup is 28.35 grams x 8 ounces = 226.8 grams or 272.16
    calories, but you're missing the larger picture.  The point here
    is that McDougall says that the foods your body was DESIGNED to
    eat are naturally low in calories, so go ahead and eat.  Eat until
    you are full.  You'll end up taking in low calories anyway, that
    you'll remain naturally trim and healthy.  In other words, DON'T
    deprive your hunger drive.  Somewhere in this notes file, I'll find
    it later, I put in a 7 day McDougall Plan.  I would challenge anyone
    in this notes file to follow that plan to the nth degree, and see
    if you don't drop 10 pounds and feel healthier.  You'll note that
    there will be NO OIL on your skin.  You won't be able to run you
    finger across you forehead in the afternoon and see it dark with
    oil and dirt.  Try it.
    
    Glenn

    Joana,
    
    That 7-day McDougall Plan is on note 164.6.  I would recommend that
    you extract it and print it out, so you have a hardcopy.  It's easy
    to follow and the results will be surprising.  Best of luck (although
    luck has nothing to do with it).
    
    Glenn

    
    write
    
    Hey out there.... does anyone have any information on YEAST.
    I mean the food you eat that contains & produces Yeast.  You
    see, I have a yeast problem (candida).  I was told to stay
    away from mushrooms, alfafa sprouts, nuts, cheese, wine,
    olives, fruit juices, and certain fruits etc, the list goes
    on.
    
    Can anyone help me with a good diet (I mean nutritionally, as
    well as weight loss plan)
    
    

    Woops... I forgot to mention that I have tried the 
    following diets and lost weight the first week but
    regained in the second, third & sometimes fourth weeks
    and I was ALWAYS HUNGRY.
    Weight Watchers - headaches and hungry
    Diet Workshop -    same
    
    So far, the only diets that have worked have been
    the Steak & salad diet.  Very high in protein.  Eat
    all you want (fill yourself up)  no breads, rice, pasta,
    sweets (only fruit)
    I never felt hungry on this diet, no headaches, and
    lost considerable amounts of weight.  I did stay away
    from mushrooms & alfafa (to avoid yeast problems)
    
    

    RE: last two
    
    First things first... consult your doctor... see what is right for
    you...
    
    WW and/or Diet workshops DO NOT work for me, becuase I don't have
    the will power to follow them.  I don't like buying all the stuff
    I have to buy, nor do I like following their plans... but for hundreds
    of others, it *has* worked...
    
    Many years ago, my doctor and I sat down, and worked out a diet
    that he did not aprrove of, but monitored me, and it worked well
    for me..  
    
    I eat a large salad (usually .68 or there about on the scale in the
    caf), with a side of whatever dressing I want (diet or non diet)
    that I dip parts of  it into (no more than 3 teaspoons full though).
    For dinner, I have a LeMenu, Weight Watchers Dinner, Lean Cruisine,
    dinner classic, etc..
    
    I also buy some of the WW products (hot chocolate, orange shake),
    for whenever I HAVE to have that something sweet.. (limited to no
    more than twice a week)... and sugar free jello to my hearts content
    (no more than 1.5 cups a day - 24 calories)
    
    Anyway, to make a long story short... I lose weight on this diet..
    After my doctor and I came to an agreement,  it worked for me...
    
    Do the same thing, let a doctor and you design a diet that works
    for you... but get those followups, blood sugar and pressure is
    VERY important...
    
    Last week, I re-started my diet, because I now want to drop another
    30 pounds... this time I didn't consult a doctor, but I don't want
    to lose a hundred pounds this time either (nor do I live in Portsmouth
    where he lives either :-)...)
    
    Do what is right for you, and work together..
    
    Gale

    I really find it hard to believe that someone would take, either
    through pills or patch, an appetite suppressant.  Call me stupid,
    or hard-headed, but I find it inconceivable that people believe
    that their appetite is too large for their body!  I don't get it.
    
    Glenn
    (a blast from the past)
   

    note 200 fm mcintosh - is the most informative explanation on the
    subject i've ever read.  Thanks.  Makes sense also, now if only
    I can remember all that.

    I just joined this notes file and am slowly sifting through it all.
    I found this note very interesting too.  One thing that came to
    mind is the question of shrinking ones stomach by eating less.
    Is there any truth to this?  One of the earlier replies to this
    note mentioned going hungry for awhile until your body gets used
    to the new diet.  Sounds kind of like the same thing.
    
    Thanks for any info anyone can give.
    Barb

.38>    mind is the question of shrinking ones stomach by eating less.
.38>    Is there any truth to this?  One of the earlier replies to this

	Yes, stomachs do indeed shrink if you eat less food.

-mike z

	Lately I have started eating hommus on pita bread.  Does anyone know
    	the caloric count and nutritional breakdown of this spread?
        
    	Thanks!
    
    	Corey