Conference rocks::weight_control

OK.  I know that milk and all the dairy products (does this include eggs?)
are not needed for adult nutrition.  The calcium and other nutrients you
can get from milk, you can get from other foods easily and without all the
fats you get in milk.  Milk is needed for infants and children (growing
persons). And I agree that most of the information that we take as the
absolute truth about milk are from the American Dairy Council.

But, I don't agree that milk is something to be avoided totally.  Like
all things, in moderation, milk and milk products are wonderful.
But, note the words "in moderation".  (Doesn't that theme come up over and
over again in this conference?)

					Maryann

So, what do you put on your cereal in the morning, Glenn? :-)

    
    Dairy products are defined as anything made from milk.  this includes
    cheese, butter, yogurt, sour cream, etc.  It does not include eggs.

    It's true that milk products contain a fair amount of fat; however, as
    Weight Watchers (among others) teaches us, we need a certain amount of
    fat in our diets.  Most hormones are made of slightly modified fat
    cells, so you can really mess yourself up by avoiding them completely.

    Milk products are a relatively inexpensive source of protein, as well
    as calcium.  I'd certainly advise against a "yogurt and bananas" fad
    diet, but 2 cups of skim milk per day seems to carry clear benefits.

    Glenn, in the "feta cheese" discussion, where this got started, you
    initially condemned dairy products primarily because of what you
    described as unhealthy practices in milk production.  Was that in
    fact a minor issue in your view on dairy?  Just curious.

    Beverly

    
    
    	Hi Glenn,
    
    	I quess it's my turn. 
    
    	Do you also avoid red meat?  I noticed in your break down that
    there is a great deal of fat, and no carbs, and no fiber.  Where
    do you get your daily intake of protein from?  It sounds to me like
    you may be vegetarian.  Do you also find chicken and fish as non
    health supporting?  I am asking these questions to help me understand
    your position on this subject. 
    
    Robin
    
    (this looks to be a good conversation)
    

    
    RE .2  What to put on your cereal
    
    I have seen in health food stores milk made from nuts.
    Bread_and_Circus  in particular sells almond milk.  It's not bad.
    I don't know how it's made though.
    
    D.
    

re. Note 192.3

1<    I know that feta cheese is, in fact, a cheese and for that reason
1<    alone, it is avoided on a health-supporting diet.  If it's a dairy
1<    product, it's avoided.  Dairy products are generally high in fat,
1<    protein and cholesterol and low in carbohydrates and contain no
1<    fiber.  Dairy products are the leading cause of food allergies.

2<    Dairy products are high on the food chain and therefore may contain
2<    dangerous levels of environmental contaminants.  Antibiotics are
2<    commonly used on dairy farms to treat cows for such conditions as
2<    mastitis, an infection of the cow's udder.....I want none of that.
    
Glenn,
	I am curious as to the source of your information, or mis-information
as the case may be.  I will not disagree with the first few comments about
dairy products, their food value or the allergic reactions many people have
to them.  I do, however, wish to take issue with you about the second section,
which I view as a form of TERRORISM.

	You contend dairy products are high on the food chain.  My definition
of HIGH on the food chain is an animal who eats other animals.  Cows are
vegetarians, that is to say they are as LOW on the food chain as an animal can
be.  Bovines eat hay, grain, and corn; as do pigs, sheep, chickens, turkeys and
any other animal grown for human consumption.  What makes the cow any different?

	You insinuate that dairy products are contaminated with antibiotics used
in the treatment of mastitis. I believe (but I will check my references when I
get home tonight) that mastitis is a condition where the poor cow cannot give
any milk and therefore must be cared for separately from the dairy herd being
milked by machine.  These cows are hand milked and kept seperated from the
rest. At over $1000 per animal only a fool would milk a cow with mastitis by
machine. I believe the laws (in Mass anyway) concerning dairy products
currently prohibit the sale of milk not obtained by machine.  The law is
concerned with the contaminats on the milker's hands.  Each cow's udder is
washed before the machine is attached. 

	Any argument you may build about the chemicals in milk can also be made
for any domesticated meat product sold at your local supermarket.  If you are
down on all animal products that certainly is your perogative, however to single
out milk and dairy products as your target is misleading.

					Al Whitman

p.s. I do not currently have dairy animals, however I have tended to just about
everything at one time or another in my 38 years.

    Try unsweetened fruit juice on cereal.  My husband likes it watered
    down a little.  I still prefer milk...lactose reduced type is all
    I can tolerate.
    
    Judy

    Goodmorning all.  I'm sorry I wasn't here yesterday to answer these
    questions, but I was snowed in and was unable to get to work.  But,
    nevertheless, I am here and with some answers.
    
    re .1  Hi MaryAnn!  I can only tell you what I believe.  I believe
    that milk, and dairy products in general, should be avoided totally.
    I would however, agree that "in moderation" should be used for those
    who don't want to abstain completely.
    
         What do I put on my cereal?  Darlene in .4 hit it exactly.
    Honey's (my health food store) sells both nut milk and milk made
    from soy.  That's what I use.
    
    re.2  Hi Beverly!  You're correct in your definition of dairy products,
    in that it does not include eggs.  But eggs also, are not
    health-supporting.  They are the single highest source of cholesterol.
    The American Heart Foundation says that heart disease is caused
    by fat and cholesterol.  So, what do you do?  You stop eating fat
    and cholesterol, and as you probably know, cholesterol is only present
    in animal products.  So, quit eating eggs!  
         Re: what WW teaches, I've never been to WW, nor do I know what
    they teach, but I don't believe that we need fat in our diets. 
    You said that milk products are a good source of protein as well
    as calcium.  That's true.  But we are in a protein RICH society,
    and too much protein is bad.  In fact, too much protein actually
    causes a calcium washaway, which is the cause of osteoporosis.
    Protein and calcium come from other sources.
        All the points that I brought up about dairy products, from
    contamination to fat content are equal liabilities.  I don't hold
    one as a major and others as minors.
    
    re:.3  Hi Robin!  Yes I avoid red meat.  But I don't differentiate
    between red and white meat.  Meat is meat.  A muscle is a muscle
    is a muscle, whether it moves a limb or shakes a fin.  Chicken,
    beef, pork, lamb, fish, shellfish etc. are all avoided on a
    health-supporting diet.  
        Here's a brief summary of the plan I follow.
    
    "The McDougall Plan encourages you to adopt a diet and lifestyle
    which BEST supports you natural tendencies to heal and stay healthy.
    This supportive environment is based around proper foods, moderate
    exercise, adequate sunshine, pure air and water, and surroundings
    comfortable to your psychological wellbeing.  The primary component,
    the diet, is centered around a variety of starchy plant foods such
    as rice, potatoes, and pastas with the addition of fresh fruits
    and vegetable.  Animal-derived foods and plant products that are
    refined or otherwise processed are not health-supporting and are
    placed in a category alled delicacies."   This is what I try to
    follow.  
         You ask where I get my protein.  You must understand that we
    live in a society that is plagued by EXCESS diseases.  Not diseases
    of deficiencies.  There are no diseases of deficiencies in the United
    States.  No one is running around with a protein deficiency or any
    other deficiency for that matter.  We have diseases of excesses;
    excess calories causing obesity, excess fat and cholesterol causing
    heart disease, stroke and general athrosclerosis, excess protein
    causing gout, kidney stones, osteoporsis, and countless other diseases.
    We are the most affluent society on the face of the earth.  We have
    money and we use it.  We eat feast foods 3 times a day, 7 days a
    week.  And the results are absolutely crystal clear!
    
    re:.4  No response needed.
    
    re:.5  Hi Al!  You don't seem thrilled with me.  But this is mighty
    interesting stuff...agreed?  
    
        The food chain.  There are 4 levels on my food chain.  The bottom
    one being plant foods, the next being animals that eat that plant
    food, the next being humans and the highest being babies.  The further
    up you go on this food "pyramid", if you will, the increasing levels
    on concentrations of fat-soluble environmental contaminants.  But
    let's talk about livestock yards.  Animal flesh is contaminated
    by a wide variety of drugs.  These include hormones, stimulants,
    and antibiotics.  They are used to speed animal growth and to combat
    the infectious diesesase commonly found in crowded conditions. 
    When we eat meat and poultry grown under such circumstances, we
    consume an assortment of powerful animal drugs.  In 1979 a thorough
    government study focused on the contamination of animal products.
    The Government Accounting Office reported to congress that "14 percent
    by dressed weight of the meat and poultry sampled by the Dept of
    Agriculture between 1974 and 1976 contained illegal and potentially
    harmful residues of animal drugs, pesticides, or environmental
    contaminants.  Many of these substances are known to cause or are
    suspected of acusing cancer, birth defects, or other toxic effects"*
    
    *From the Comptroller General of the United States, report to Congress,
    Problems in Preventing the Marketing of Raw Meat and Poulty Containing
    Potentially Harmful Residues," Government Documents Collection,
    GA.  1.13, HRD 79-10, april 17, 1979.
    
    My reference to the antibiotic used against mastitis, is only an
    example.  I am "down on all animal products" as you said, however
    this note is about milk and dairy products and that is why I'm speaking
    on this topic.  I am not "singling out milk and dairy products"
    necessarily.  That happens to be the subject of this topic.  I'm
    equally happy discussing osteoporsis or arthritis.
    
    Well, these are some of my views.  I must point out that I do FEAST,
    4 or 5 times a year; Thanksgiving, Easter, Christmas, Anniversary,
    etc.  and I DO eat meat on those occasions.  Our problem is that
    we've made meat our main staple instead of a delicacy.  As to this
    note, I merely enjoy provocative, intelligent discussion.  I mean
    no harm to anyone, nor am I trying to "CONVERT" anyone.  It's just
    open opinion and fact for anyone's information.
    
    Glenn

I make two different kinds of milk, one from sesame seeds and one from
soy beans..

The Sesame is as follows: (these are estimated amounts... I often fool
around with the proportions to get a different consistency)

I cup of Sesame seeds soaked over night in about 3 cups of spring water
Next morning bring to a boil for 1 min.
Let cool and blend in a blender until well blended.. 
strain several times through very find woven cloth until it is very well
strained.  Add a drop of vanilla and a bit of honey for sweetness and chill.
This is excellent for cooking, puddings, cereals and just plain drinking.
It is really nice with a dash of nutmeg over ice as a drink in summer.
(always give this milk a shake before serving)

Soy Milk: (again this is in estimated amounts)

3 cups of soy beans soaked overnight in about 8 cups of water.  Drain and
add 8 to 10 cups of spring water.  Bring to a boil and boil for 15 mins.
Now this is the tricky part.. Soy milk is much better if the blending is
done while the beans and water are still very hot... it is very difficult
to blend them without explosions so you must do it a bit at a time... blend
all the beans and all the liquid until the beans are well cracked and frothy.
Add them back to the pot and cook gently for about abother 15 mins.  Strain
as you would with the Sesame milk... this produces a very rich, and very
creamy looking milk that is a bit on the strong side.  I often dilute the
finished milk until I find it a bit less strong.  You can sweeten it with
vanilla and honey also.  And alwasy shake it good before using.

When I lived in Mexico they made a "milk" there using white rice.  It is 
called agua de aroz (rice water).. it is wonderful but it does use refined
white rice..  White rice is simply soaked in the sun in lots of water, after
about 12 hours of soaking it is blended and strained (actually most people 
there do not strain it, they let the rice settle and ladle the milk from the
top.  They sweeten it with honey and nutmeg.  


All of these "milks" freeze well so you can have a milk making day once a 
week or every two weeks and freeze them.  I have found their life in the
fridge however not to be more than about a week.

happy milk making.

gailann

An added note:

I have made everything from chowders to puddings using soy milk with very
good results.. I have even served it to people that are confirmed non -
health food people who did not notice it was not cow's milk when cooked
into various foods.

One of my favorite uses for it is corn and baby lima bean chowder and I
have yet had a person dislike it!  

It even makes a pretty good white sauce for use with veggies and such.

gailann

    I would like to make a reference to the comment made earlier about
    drinking the milk of a cow that has been treated for mastitis. 
    I have worked on dairy farms, and any cow being treated with
    Cefalak (the product used to treat mastitis) had a yellow band
    put around its ankle, and the number of the cow was written down
    along with the date that it was treated.  Whenever that cow came
    through the milk line, it was still milked, but the milk go poured
    down the drain.  As stated in a previous note, all the cows udders
    are washed with an iodine solution before milking, and every night
    all the milking equipment got a thorough washing.  
    

RE .8
So how do sesame and soy milk compare nutritionally and
calorie wise to cow's milk?
					Maryann

    I don't have the nutritional comparison of other milks vs. cow's
    milk right now.  I will try to get it though.  Does someone else
    have this information?
    
    Glenn

    Note that the milk products compared to meat were all full-fat
    milk products.  Skimmed milk is very low in fat.  Also, other
    milks, such as goat milk, are low in fat.  Let's see a fair
    comparison!
    
    Nut and seed "milks" likely contain a lot of fat, including a
    lot of saturated fat.  As I recall, the McDougall plan suggests
    a very limited intake of nuts and seeds.
    
    Americans DO eat an excess of protein and fat - I have seen many
    many articles pointing to that fact as a cause of many diseases.
    However, I consider an "everything in moderation" plan much healthier
    than a drastic plan, such as McDougall's.  Shifting your meal emphasis
    to vegetable source foods is a good idea, but I can't recommend
    going totally without animal sources.  I got very sick when I tried
    it, and I was balancing all sorts of things AND taking a vitamin/
    mineral supplement.  I was anemic from something that they could
    not figure out.  Probably something not yet discovered, and not
    in my supplement pills.
    
    Nutrition science is still in its infancy.  They are finding out
    "facts" daily - look at the controversy over eggs!  Some nutritionists
    point to the high cholesterol and scream "poison!", and others look
    at the presence of cholesterol CONTROLLING substances and say "well,
    it may balance itself out"... noone really knows much yet.  Look
    at the fact that they have not even figured out many of the vitamins
    yet - what they are and what they do!  
 

    Louise

    
> The American Heart Foundation says that heart disease is caused
> by fat and cholesterol.  So, what do you do?  You stop eating fat
> and cholesterol, and as you probably know, cholesterol is only present
> in animal products.  So, quit eating eggs!  
    
    Heart disease is caused by *too* *much* fat and *too* *high* a
    cholesterol level!  It's certainly true that many, many Americans have
    cholesterol levels above what's healthy; however, the target range
    doesn't start at zero!  So no, I don't stop eating animal products; I
    just cut back on them!
    
> Re: what WW teaches, I've never been to WW, nor do I know what
>     they teach, but I don't believe that we need fat in our diets. 
    
    I think you're wrong here.  I'll see if I can find the source of the
    statement about hormones being made up of modified fat molecules.

> You ask where I get my protein.  You must understand that we live 
> in a society that is plagued by EXCESS diseases. 

    The rest of this paragraph talks about excess diseases.  You never
    answered the question!  Surely you acknowledge the need for some
    protein!  Do you get it all from soy and other nuts?
    
    I think the "healthiest" way to eat is somewhere in the middle ground
    -- moderation of all food groups.  We tend to eat too much.  Period.
    
    Beverly
    

    re:.13
    
    Louise, here is a milk comparison chart.
    
    			% Calories From
                                                    Calories
                                                   Concentration    
    Food		Protein	Fat Carbohydrates   Calories/Gm
    
    Milk, goat, fluid	   19	54	27		0.67
    Milk, cow, whole	   21	49	30		0.65
    Milk, cow, 2%          28	31	41		0.59
    Milk, cow, skim        41    2      57       	0.36
    Milk, mothers	    5   45      48              0.78
    
    Here's a "fair comparison" that you requested.
    
    Glenn

    Hi Beverly,
    
    Yes, of course, heart disease is caused by TOO MUCH fat and
    cholesterol, but since cholesterol is only available in animal products
    and fat you get from almost everything including vegetables, why
    not eliminate the one of the largest sources of fat and cholesterol,
    not to mention the food contaminants and the other items I pointed
    out before.  The American Medical Association, according to the
    Wall Street Journal, has altered their thinking and lowered their
    safe levels of cholesterol about 2 months ago.  Yes, Americans eat
    a great deal of fat and cholesterol, but that's all I'm talking
    about.  Originally, I said that dairy products aren't good for you
    for the noted reasons.  Are you saying they ARE good for you?  I
    believe the American Dairy Council has convinced the American public
    that cow's milk is the perfect food for us, when in fact it is merely
    the perfect food for baby cows.
    
    You're correct about fat.  McDougall recommends 5-10% of your calorie
    intake in the form of fat and 5-10% of your calorie intake in the
    form of protein.  Speaking about protein sources and where you get
    protein if not from meat, note 200.7? and .9 speak to that, I believe.
    
    If nothing else, those reading these notes are thinking and hopefully
    making educated decisions for themselves.  
    
    Glenn

    
    Well, we're certainly giving WEIGHTLOSS some exercise, eh?  Wonder what
    tomorrow's unseen count will be . . .
    
    I found the nutritional info on different types of milk fascinating. 
    The first 4 lines were what I expected.  But look at the comparison
    with Mother's milk!!  
    
.15>    Food		      Protein  Fat Carbohydrates   Calories/Gm
.15>    
.15>    Milk, goat, fluid	19	54	27		0.67
.15>    Milk, cow, whole	21	49	30		0.65
.15>    Milk, cow, 2%		28	31	41		0.59
.15>    Milk, cow, skim		41	 2      57       	0.36
.15>    Milk, mothers		 5	45      48              0.78
    
    *Much* less protein than even whole cow's milk, and more carbohydrate. 
    In other words, kids need sugar (that's all lactose is) and fat more
    than protein.  Fat seems to account for almost half the calories.  Of
    course, nutritional requirements change as we grow; I'd be interested
    in a thorough study of those changes.
    
.16> Originally, I said that dairy products aren't good for you for the
.16> noted reasons.  Are you saying they ARE good for you?  
    
    I'm saying that they aren't poison.  Man evolved as an omnivour; we're
    designed to eat a little of a lot of different things.  Certainly
    drinking huge quantities of milk is a Bad Idea, but 1-2 cups a day
    isn't going to give us heart disease.
    
.16> I believe the American Dairy Council has convinced the American public
.16> that cow's milk is the perfect food for us, when in fact it is merely
.16> the perfect food for baby cows.
    
    I agree with this; there are a lot of crocks Madison Avenue has put
    over on the general public.  It isn't "perfect" for anyone (except
    calves, as noted!), and there are some people who should avoid it
    (mostly those who have developed an intolerance because they drank
    too much of it).  However, it does have nutritional value!
    
    Beverly

    I sort of agree with you Beverly, KIDS need mothers milk, but not
    adults.  Humans have mothers milk for a year or two, not the rest
    of their lives, and I don't believe adults need milk at all.
    
    Glenn

    Nutritional Breakdown of Soy Milk:
    
    Average Composition: in 250 MLs (approx. 8.5 American ounces or 8.8
    Imperial ounces if my conversions are correct, I am in the UK)
    
    (this is soy milk without added sweetener)
    
    Fat               5.8 grams
    Saturated Fat     0.8 grams
    Polyunsaturates   3.5 grams
    Protein           9   grams
    Carbohydrates     1.5 grams
    
    
    
gailann
    

    
    
    After talking with my mother about all the controversy Glenn has
    stirred up with his dairy products theories, she told me about a
    show that Donahue did the other day.  It was about parents whose
    children were diagnosed as autistic.  After being given no hope
    of her child having a normal life, one mother starting reading
    a lot of health books.  She found one with an elimination diet
    in it and decided to try it with her son.  The first item she 
    deleted from his diet was milk.  Much to her amazement, in a day 
    or two, he was a normal little boy.  One day someone at the day
    care center gave him some milk after she had taken him off, and
    he was totally out of control, from just one glass!  He's 9 years 
    old now, and the word "autistic" would not even come to mind when 
    you see him.   There were several parents on the show that had
    similar situations.
    
    It's amazing to me that milk could cause a normal child to act like
    an autistic child.  I've always avoided milk products since I'm
    an asthmatic, but it looks like the public at large should take
    a closer look at milk's so-called "benefits".  If you haven't 
    read McDougall's book, it makes for great reading.  I thought
    vegetarians were all left-over hippies from the 60s and I don't
    like reading and I usually won't sit still long enough to read
    2 chapters, but when Glenn handed me McDougall's book, I read 
    8 chapters in one sitting and the rest of the book the next day.
    It makes great sense and explains things clearly.  I'd challenge 
    those of you who haven't read it to run out and get it tonight.  
    
    (or you could just track Glenn's notes.  I think he's typed in 
     most of the book already)  

    						Jill

    Re: .-1
    
    You might also find Dr Mandell's 5-Day Allergy Relief System, which
    I've described elsewhere in this conference, interesting reading. 
    Mandell discusses a number of cases similar to that child's, caused by
    any number of different foods.
    
    His theory is that we aren't meant to eat the same thing all the time,
    and that doing so with any food can lead to sensitivity.  I had mood
    swings, a constant feeling of being close to the edge, and a generally
    limited ability to cope with reality until I stopped eating wheat.  My
    SO of the time turned out to be allergic to milk; he had migraines
    which rendered him essentially non-functional for days at a time (his
    grades went from about 3.8 to 0.? from one year to the next).
    
    Mandell did one study at a Massachusetts Psychiatric Hospital, where
    all incoming schizophrenic patients were tested using his methods. 
    Something like **90%** showed significant improvement; about 30% were
    virtually symptom-free.  Food sensitivities can mimic many diseases.
    
    It's not just dairy products, though milk, wheat, and eggs are three of
    the most common culprits, because they're most frequently over-used. 
    Our eating habits in general could stand to be closely examined.
    
    Beverly