Conference repair::reserve_forces

Would you describe the SA80 for us.  Some of us ain't to familiar with the 
thing.  We're talking about a rifle, right?

I always did like the FAL, thought it could use better sights but other 
than that I liked it better than the M14.

Rich

    For years now the British Army have been using the SLR, I'll assume
    you're familiar with this rifle. Incidentally, we have weapons(eg
    SLR's) and guns(eg GPMG's) so I guess a rifle is a weapon.
    Anyway, both weapons use the 7.62 round as recommended by NATO.
    The SLR is semi-automatic by design, whereas the SA80 can be fully
    or semi automatic.
    The SA80 apparently weighs the same as the SLR but is a few inches
    shorter. The butt and stock are plastic as are the magazines, so
    I'm told.
    The SA80 comes in a fetching two-tone colour style of green(plastic
    bits) and black(non-plastic bits)
    
    I can't think of any more for the moment, I'll peer through my books
    and let you know what I can find out.
    
    I'm also told there are some rather nice American weapons around!!
    
    Tiddly-pip,
    Dave

OK, so am I correct to assume that the SLR is basicly the Belgium FAL?

Is the SA80 a bullpup design?


Rich

Used it? I helped design it!

The SA80 (otherwise known as the Enfield Weapon System) is a bullpup shoulder 
arm in 5.56mm (.223 to our Yankee readers). It is only useable from the right 
shoulder (since it ejects its empties from the right side, and if you mount it 
on your left shoulder you'll get the hot brass in your eye)

It comes in three configurations: "normal" SA80, length about 26" (52cm barrel 
actually), replaces the SLR (which indeed is the same as the Belgian FN or the 
Canadian (C3?) in normal use

A longer barelled version with a bipod replaces the GPMG as squad machine gun. 

A shorter barelled version replaces the Sterling SMG This version is fitted 
with a 29cm barrel and a forward "pistol grip". 

Cyclic rates are in the 700-750 rpm range. Accuracy is "battlefield acceptable"
to 200m

---

All versions have the integral battle-scope (SUSAT) and iron sights together 
with a flash hider and grenade launcher fitment (which can't be used on the 
carbine because the forward hand grip gets in the way). Rather than duplicate 
matter that's in FIREARMS I'll stop there... for now.

/. Ian .\

    Rich,
    
    Top of the class, mate. Right on both counts.
    The SLR (aka L1A1) fires the 7.62 round and the SA80 fires the 5.56,
    with the magazine behind the trigger. 
    Apparently, the SA80 (aka L85A1 I think) has been tested for the
    best part of the 1980's; SA80 comes from Small Arms contract 1980
    I read somewhere.
    I found a few notes about the weapons which I'll add to the conference
    over the weekend probably.
    Incidentally, the regular soldiers will also get the 4x SUSAT sight
    and the SA80 Light Support Version. Us part time rock-apes will use iron
    sights.    
    
    Oh well, back to work now.
    Dave

    In American parlance, a gun is a piece of artillery (like a 105
    mm howitzer or a 5"/38 gun on board ship).
    
    A rifle is never referred to as a "gun". A weapon, rifle, or piece
    is OK but never "gun".
    
    Mark
    RMC USNR

The only shoulder arm correctly refered to as a gun is a shotgun!

/. Ian .\

    So, is the Bullpup design an improvement, is the SA80 a wonderful 
    piece of machinery or not.  From its reputation in the field there 
    are very few people looking forward to getting them.
    
    Dave.

    
    	I've heard a lot of good and bad points about the SA80 but I'll
    reserve judgement until I actually get my hands on one !!
    				Steve..

Personal opinion, highly flavored by pique :-) [they wouldn't listen to me]

It should have used the original calibre (4.63 mm)

It should be ambidextrous.

It should be...

Actually it is a sort of camel of the shoulder arms field - a total pig's ear 
generated by the need to assuage political interests.

However it is reliable, accurate (well within design needs), and has a high rate
of fire. It isn't a replacement for the SLR in the hands of anyone who can 
actually shoot well at moderate range

/. Ian .\

    Ian,
    As you were involved in the design of the SA80 could you tell me
    if the following is true.
    I've been told that if you're stripping the weapon for cleaning
    you must be very careful when removing the gas plug, as it's possible
    to drop the pin down the barrel.  The barrel will then need to be
    rebored as that's the only way of clearing the barrel.
    
    Dave

In fairness I helped design the barrel: I disown the rest of it... (Most of the
work I did was on the version that never got made in volume - the 4.63 mm. that
the SAS are using in small numbers).

However:

This is only only one of several ways of disabling the piece. I'm not sure about
*having* to rebore it, but you certainly wouldn't do the accuracy any good. It 
is impossible to get the pin down the 4.63mm barrel, but when they made the 
political decision to change to the larger 5.56mm they didn't redesign the 
assembly, and now of course Murphy rules.

Field stripping is something you do only if you have to. Anything else you 
should do on a nice tidy bench. Murphy had a field day when this was designed. 
In addition to being able to drop a pin down the barrel I'm told there are two 
pins in the trigger group that can be put in backwards. 

You can also adjust the trigger pull and travel to the point that (a) it can't 
be fired, and (b) you can't un-adjust it. Worse: you can adjust it to the point
were it adjusts itself under recoil (a wholly new meaning for the term
automatic rifle). This again is associated with the aborted calibre: the trigger
was designed for a shorter firing pin and pin-spring than is used in 5.56mm and
hence the rate of adjustment as you turn the screws is different, and hence you 
run out of travel, and either run off the thread or bind the screw solid.

I can certainly vouch for the latter as I saw it recently: the trigger pull had 
been "lightened" with the result that there was probably half a turn of thread
left engaged on the screw. In use it moved until no thread was engaged. After 
that it changed trigger pressure from shot to shot.

/. Ian .\

It's always difficult to enter what looks like negative comment, and hence I
kept my earlier replies as positive as I could. However an article in the 
British magazine "Handgunner", issue #50, (November/December 1989) has been
brought to my attention. Its a long article and I offer only a couple of quotes.

Bearing in mind that the SA80 was designed for the .19 calibre round not the 
.223 (5.56mm) and was designed to fire off an open bolt that stays open after
each shot, and in fact fires off a closed bolt that stays closed after shooting
(in the interest of cheapness), the following can be viewed as Murphyisms.

Note the article is primarily about the L86A1 LSW (replacement for the GPMG).

"The LSW, of course, shares all the frailties of the rifle [IW]: firing pins
break, the receiver rusts, mags fall out, cheekpieces fall off, the weldments
are poor, topcovers, ejection port covers, mag releases and safeties break,
and so forth. But the LSW also has a few afflictions of its own."

"One of the nefarious consequences of commonality was that the LSW fires from 
closed bolt, rather than open bolt, which was an optional configuration offered 
by Royal Ordnance. The predictable result is awful overheating."

"Having adopted the closed bolt, the Army is seeking to palliate its inadequacy
by teaching drills. Since the bolt assembly doesn't remain to the rear between
bursts to allow air circulation through the barrel, the gunner is taught to rack
the mechanism open and apply the hold-open device, or bolt-stop, during lulls
in the firing."

"What it means is that the firer now has more to do than he should, during the 
most stressful situation imaginable. When he racks the bolt assembly back the 
round in the chamber will be ejected onto the ground. This has to be recovered,
cleaned and replaced in a magazine or pouch; rounds are precious. When a target 
appears the bolt stop must be released and the target reacquired. If, as is 
beciming increasingly common, the fragile bolt release button has broken, then
the gun must be rolled to the left and the cocking handle or the holding open
device used to release the bolt. By this time a fleeting target would certainly
have been lost and with it the gun's domination of the ground."

/. Ian .\

    Ian,
    
    You mentioned that the SA80 can only be used for right-handders as the
    cartridges are ejected to the right. This is the same for the American
    M16A1 (Colt AR15). We use the AR15 in the Singapore Army (we also use a
    local version M16S1, which has an extra rod beside the bolt which is
    used to push the bolt group fully forward so its locked in the
    chamber) and we have a thingie called a DEFLECTOR (I don't know if this
    is locally invented) which is attached to the carrying handle. It has a
    thin metal plate to shield the firer's face from the open ejection port
    and deflects cartridges coming out away from the firer. I've seen it
    used and is pretty effective.
    
    hw_who's_glad_he's_right_handed_like_most_other_people

The problem with the SA80 is that it is a bullpup - ie the ejection port is in
the "butt" section. Using a deflector would throw the brass to the left, but 
there isn't room to fit one (it would be where your head goes :-)

This is being worked on however for a MkII (a flip over top piece determining 
whether brass ejects to right or left).

Of course it won't matter at all in the next generation (caseless ammo means
no ejection at all).

/. Ian .\

    Further thoughts
    
    I remember the early days, when I did not know the difference and then
    this happen:
    
    The Cpl, placed a rifle in each of my hands, I was standing at ease at
    the time.
    
    I stood there, legs apart looking ahead.
    
    The Cpl then explained that:
    
    "This is a rifle" (grasping the one in the left hand)
    "and"
    "this is a rifle" (grasping the other)
    "and"
    THIS (grasping something very important
    is a gun!
    
    Times don't changed,