Conference quokka::non_custodial_parents

	You have already talked to a local attorney, and now you want
us to tell you the real story ???

	My understanding is that usually marriage assets should be
divided 50/50.   Take total net worth (900k plus your pension)
maybe less assets you brought to the marriage and less inheritances,
divide by two and each gets half.    If you have been married a long
time (>10yrs) maybe you don't get to subtract.    Since there are kids,
if this isn't enough to maintain the ex and kids in the house, the ex
may get more.   So in your case sounds like she gets the house and another
150k (plus 1/2 your pension if not figured in 900k).

	Guidelines in Mass are described elsewhere in this file.
They are around 30% of your gross if she doesn't work.  The 10% for older
kids would raise this to 33%.   In Mass, if your ex works this amount
would decrease some.   In NH if your ex works, this amount can go
up !!   This means roughly your pay check is divided into three
pieces, she gets 1/3, tax gets 1/3 and you get 1/3.

	Do you expect to pay child support until youngest graduates
from high school or until the youngest graduates from college ??
Are you going to pay college room, board, tuition, fees,
transportation, and full child support ?

.0> "How do people survive if 40% of gross gets taken out????"
	I heard about a case where child support and alimony amounted
to 65% of gross.   As a single person, with 30k/year income, and
$450k in assets it might be possible to live without sleeping in
your car.    It may not be as comfortable as it is now.

.0> "o what do you think the guidelines would call for here for CS"
	Ask your lawyer.

	I understand in Mass alimony is considered a bridge, unless the
ex is old or unable to work.   If the ex is employable, it shouldn't last
a long time.   But the judge might want you to support her through college
or some such.   If it becomes a case of either the ex gets welfare or
alimony, you can expect to pay.

	My lawyer tells me that if I get laid off (through no fault
of my own) and I can only get a job at lower pay, I can might get
reduced child support payments.   But if I voluntarily change to lower
pay it will be seen as an effort to get reduced child support payments,
and it will be frowned upon.   You need to take the pay cut before you
do anything in court (it may be too late).    And it might be good
to decide all this before she goes back to school ... judges like
to maintain the status quo.   If the current status is she is a
student, the judge may think you need to support that.

.0>  "o My wife has said she would be "reasonable"
	Before I moved out my wife and I signed an agreement about
support and property.  Once I was out, her position changed.   Hope
for the best, but prepare for the worst.   If you are going to do this
it is best to get it done quickly.

	My advice.
	0.  You didn't say why you were considering a divorce.  Maybe
	there is room for a reconciliation ?   Try a counselor.  If the
	first one you try doesn't work, try another.
	1, Talk to a lawyer about what you could expect the judge where
	you are to do if you don't agree.   Try to figure what is important
	to you to keep (settlement, peace, visitation, freedom, ego, pension,
	college expenses, future alimony ?)
	2. Then try to negotiate terms with your ex.  Sit down and draw
	up a list of what she wants.   If it's a better deal than 1, have
	your lawyer write it up and MAYBE her lawyer and the judge will agree.
	3. If 2 didn't work try mediation.
	4. If 3 doesn't work, it's going to cost you lots of money
	to have the lawyers(>$100/hour) fight it out.  The more you
	can agree on, the less it costs you.   And the more you fight,
	the more hard feelings you have to live with when it's time
	to schedule visitation.

	Divorce sucks.    Take care of your self.   Try to be gentle.
but know your limits.    In any negotiation it is always best to
understand what the other person needs and wants, and to be clear
about what your own needs and wants are.   Try to be flexible.

	Good luck !

    Did your attorney take in or on alimony/maintence? 
    
    My thoughts... unabridged.... Go to councling. Send her to college,
    have an affair, dont get cought.... :)
    
    

    
    My Humble and Non-Professional advice--If it can still be salvaged,
    then salvage it.   Get counseling,  take a long vacation together,
    whatever.  The "freedom" of divorce is only an illusion. You get all
    the b.s. plus some from a divorce that you get from marriage, and none
    of the benefits,  with the kids being presented the biggest bill.  The
    "it will be better for the kids" is also a load of organic fertilizer. 
    The chances that kids will use drugs, drop out of school, get in
    trouble with the law, or go to jail _double_ when there is no father in
    the home.   
    
    fred();

    Gee, Fred,
    
    Your saying a single parent home is detrimental to a child's future?
    Like, now I have to worry that my daughter will be turning tricks to
    support her habit while skipping reform school because her Dad walked
    out before she was even born?   A mother can't prevent those things
    without the "father in the home"?
    
    						cj *->

    cj,
    
    Fred is reading some recient studies of the single parent. Reguardless
    of you views, the stats are there. And it is someting that all must be
    aware of. Wether you agree to it or not.
    
    Peace
    
    

    Well, we all know that stats can lie.  Which doesn't mean that the
    statisic is wrong, just that you have to look at how the study was
    done.  Based solely on personal experience, I think that it has just as
    much to do with how involved the custodial parent is, regardles of
    whether that parent is the mother or the father.  And just because the
    parents are in two different homes does not automatically mean that
    either parent is uninvolved.

    
>    My Humble and Non-Professional advice--If it can still be salvaged,
>    then salvage it.   Get counseling,  take a long vacation together,
>    whatever.  The "freedom" of divorce is only an illusion. You get all
>    the b.s. plus some from a divorce that you get from marriage, and none
>    of the benefits,  with the kids being presented the biggest bill.  The
>    "it will be better for the kids" is also a load of organic fertilizer. 
>    The chances that kids will use drugs, drop out of school, get in
>    trouble with the law, or go to jail _double_ when there is no father in
>    the home.   
    
    Amen, bro.  Unless it's an abusive environment, there ain't no "better" 
    for the kids than the complete family household.  Otherwise if left
    without that option the best we can do as parents is make sure we're 
    there and involved, in order to minimize the potential damage [initially 
    I too was fed this "fertilizer" at the same time that I was routinely 
    and actively involved with the kids, they were/are very happy and 
    pulling down straight A's in school-- that the kids were somehow 
    missing out on something just didn't fly.  Right or wrong decision, let 
    the responsibility lie where it belongs, without the rationalization]. 
    
    Glenn
    

    Try to salvage.....people change as they grow, what looks absolutely
    essential to your mental well being today probably wouldn't after you
    have seen the end result of a Massachusetts divorce. Total Destruction!  
    
    The only divorce worth having today, comes with an absolute written 
    agreement between a couple on every detail of their property and 
    child living arrangements, which should always be equal custody and
    all arrangements made by peaceful parents who aren't angry at each
    other and who have no axe to grind.  
    
    This can be difficult to accomplish when angry, however if you both 
    look at what the cost of an angry court/lawyer driven divorce is, 
    you will agree that the "we will agree amongst ourselves and live 
    happily apart ever after" with the kids best interest and our hard won 
    property and assets in mind, is the only way this can work.  
    
    This also only works if you both agree the marriage has failed, get 
    past the short term anger to split everything equally and agree on 
    who pays for what for the next 12 years of the kids growing up.  This 
    is the civil and kind way to divorce.  Everyone maintains their self
    esteem.  
    
    I actually had one of these agreements. Neither of us was willing to
    sacrifice all our hard work to lawyers.  That settled it, we calmed 
    down long enough to split the property and set up the future. went 
    through a year of being somewhat hurt and then everything settled down
    and 12 years passed. 
    
    Our son is all grown up now, we are all still friends, who remember 
    a decent marriage that lasted 15 years but needed to end, a 50/50 
    financial split of our assets (we both worked and earned them all 
    those years), and 12 years of our child growing up mixing with both 
    parents who shared the driving back and forth to Connecticut, and 
    the extra expenses of class rings and school photos and class trips 
    and summer camp. Two parents who agreed on what happened with the kiddo, 
    and supported each other with decisions regarding him.  If you can do 
    this, then get divorced and move on with your private lives.  If you 
    can't do this then my recommendation is to stop even thinking about 
    divorce and see what a counselor can do for you, 25 counselors if thats 
    what it takes to make you understand why you married her in the first
    place, and she married you:-)  THERE WAS A REASON ONCE UPON A TIME!
    
    Good Luck, the reason is probably still there buried under the hurt:-)
    b                                       

    
    I've been on vacation a while, so I've not been able to respond much
    lately.

    If I had a dollar for every time I've heard, "If I had only known just
    _how_ bad it was going to be, I'd have tried a _lot_ harder to make 
    the marriage work", I'd have a pretty good retirement nest egg built
    up by now.  Spend some time reading through these files, and don't say 
    you weren't warned.

    Even Bill and Hillery Clinton are singing the praises of "Family
    Values" these days.  Many studies are beginning to show the benefit
    of a male influence as an "authority figure" for the children even
    if the male is not necessarily "involved" with the kid.  

    A few weeks back 20-20 or 48 hours ran a rather fair and balanced (I
    thought)  show on the subject.  The single mom had enrolled her son in
    a  martial-arts class so there would be a male figure in the child's
    life.  When the son would get out of control, she'd call the martial
    arts teacher to give the son the business.  The son would listen to the
    male where he wouldn't listen to her.  All-in-all a far cry from the 
    "men are abusive pigs--a woman needs a man like a fish needs a
    bicycle--just don't let the child support be late" line the media has
    followed for so long.

    Likewise, if you have not choice in the matter, then you can't spend a
    lot of time beating yourself up.  You just have to go on doing the
    best that you can.
    
    fred();