Conference quokka::non_custodial_parents

>   Is there such a magical age?  

	If the child is nursing, overnights probably should be out.
Otherwise, IMHO, assuming the child is doing all right and assuming the
father has a suitable environment, any age would be fine.  Actually,
the sooner the better ... teenagers don't want to be with either parent.

	Doing a gradual increase on a regular schedule which you
make clear to the child sounds like a great plan.

>                                                     She stated that a
>   professional would not be qualified to determine what is best for her
>   child. 

	It sounds like the mother has some issues she needs to work
with her therapist.   But that should be her problem, not yours.
I would suggest that you be gentle but firm with the mother ... try
not to burn bridges.   Suggest a mediator.   If the mother doesn't like
that the next step is for her lawyer and your lawyer to try to negotiate.
Maybe that will mean a four way session to try to reach an agreement.
If her lawyer is any good, her lawyer will point out that the next
step is to ask the judge's opinion.   While the mother may not think
a "professional would be qualified to determine what is best for her
child", the judge is a professional, and WILL decide.   And judges
usually like to have both parents involved with the child.   Better to
negotiate than have it ordered.

	I think this applies to both overnight visitation and telephone
calls.

	Just in case Fred forgets to jump in here, DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT,
DOCUMENT.   Keep a log of every conversation you have with the mother,
and document every time she obstructs your contact with the child.

	And try to be gentle with the mother.  It sounds like she had
some bad experiences.

    If the father is capable of changing diapers, bottle feeding, and has a
    crib for the child. There should be no interuptions of the ncp and
    visitation. Period. I have had that one pulled on me. Sorry all. I
    bottle fed my daughter. Changed and bathed her, and drove 400+ mile
    weekends to get her.
    
    There is no magical age. This is pure crap from getgo. Mommy contol to
    insure that there is no chance of custody reversal.
    
    Peace
    

    I also agree that there is no majical age. More specifically, BOTH 
    parents should have the "best interest of the child" at steak; not 
    worrying about the emotional state of either parent.
    
    I am a Non Custodial Dad, and fortunately, we worked out visitation in 
    the decree from the get-go that I would have him from Friday evening 
    at 5:00 p.m.to the following Monday morning at 9:00 a.m. every other 
    weekend, and a midweek visit overnight from age 3 on. He was that age
    when his Mom and I divorced. Since he has started school this past
    year, I have just been visiting with him midweek, since we had a 45
    minute drive between my house and his Mom's and he was too tired for 
    school sessions in the morning.
    
    Hope this helps.
    
    _Kevin

    
    .1 sounds like a good plan.  I second the opinion (or is is third or
    fourth) that trying to set an age limit on overnight is b.s. from
    the get-go.  Sounds like mother is the one in need of a therapist.
    If she is really that over-protective of the child, it may mean
    "endangering the mental and emotional development of the child",
    which, in my state, is grounds for change of custody.

    And as .1 says I keep hammering on.  Document, Document, Document.
    Keep a journal/log of everything that happens in relation to the
    CP.  It's a pain to do, but it can be your best friend in court.
    Judges want _evidence_ not verbal accusations.  In most states
    personal journals are evidence.

    Above all, don't get discouraged and let her get away with it.  This
    is the _child's_ right, not just the NCP's.
    
    fred();

    There is more to parenting than changing diapers, giving a bottle,
    and sticking the kid in the crib.  Performing those simple tasks
    does not make you able to handle an infant and barely defines
    parenting.
    
    I don't think the age of the child is quite as important as the
    ability of the NCP.  Granted, I'm going through a similar problem
    with an infant daughter, less than a year.  My idea of a "magical
    age" would be when she understands who the heck "daddy" is and that
    she knows it's "daddy's" house she's going to.  But this is not a
    perfect world, and you just have to do what you've got to do.
    
    But parenting also means the ability to cope with sicknesses, or know
    when you can't.  I'm not going to go into a lot of detail here, but
    in my case, the ncp can barely get through changing a diaper without
    hysterics if some poop gets on his finger, or some puke gets on his
    clothes, and God forbid he should spend the time I spend holding
    suppositories in a constipated/crying baby.   A child knows your
    discomfort.  They know when you jerk them out away from you because
    they vomitted.  If you can't sacrafice some of yourself, you are not
    a good candidate for prolonged or overnight visits.   
    
    If, in fact, the ncp is capable of dealing with all the "downs" rather
    than just looking at it as more "playtime", then overnights should be
    allowed.  (And I say that with heavy heart and grimace, but as I said,
    you just have to do what you have to do).
    
    Now it's taken me some heavy soul searching and much communication 
    through PARENTING to recognize that.   This woman in this case is 
    extreme, I feel, and agree with others that she needs help getting
    through this.  Compassion goes a long way, too.  It is very difficult
    to part with any child for any amount of time, let alone an infant
    or toddler that can't "tell" you much of what they want or need or
    where they're hurt, or how they're treated.  Don't we all go through
    that anxiety period when we leave them off at daycare?  
    
    						cj *->  

    Hi Cj <---we meet again.....
    
    Just for the record the father of the child in question is extremely
    good with kids (he has been living with me and mine for over a year
    now). His ability has never been brought into question, nor has his
    intense desire to spend more time with his son.   
    
    The mother in this case does have a problem with control (something I
    mentioned stearing clear of to you in the parenting file, which since
    noting with you, I don't think is the problem 8*)).  Whenever
    she doesn't agree with something she will state to the father that is
    too stressful for the child.  She will not even let him video tape the
    child during his visits, because it's "too stressful" I say bull, she's
    trying to punish the father for leaving her.  He brought over some videos 
    to watch with the child (Winnie the Pooh) she will not let him, stating 
    that is a waste of their time together. Whenever a Mon or Wed visit could 
    not be kept (sickness, travel, etc) she would not let him make up a day 
    on a day that would be consecutive with the next visit.  She claimed it
    would be unhealthy for the child to see the father two days in a row. 
    He (the father) has tried to be sensitive to her needs, but all this
    control is getting out of hand.  The child is not her personal
    possesion and has a right to get to know his father with out her
    dictating what he can and can't do.
     
    She also as I mentioned before has issues of her own that she needs to 
    deal with but is in the frame of mind that she doesn't have a problem, 
    everyone else does.
    
    My main concern about waiting until a child is starting school to do
    overnights is two fold. The first being that's the earliest she wants
    to discuss it -- which translate to me that she may not even be ready
    then and second I think that if she did agree to start overnights then
    it would be doomed to failure.  Because I believe that starting school
    is enough stress on a child never mind him trying to get used to new
    surrounding every other weekend.  If it were my child I would want to
    establish a routine for him as quickly as possible to allow him time to
    adjust before new changes come his way.
    
    Roberta

    Yes, hello Roberta,
    
    I thought you might find some wry amusement in my getting in this
    topic :-)  Especially since I am read-only in here.  Gathering info
    and points of view...
    
    This person is giving custodial parents a bad name! :-)  Personally,
    I'd kill to see my daughter's father want to watch anything other than
    talk shows and old reruns.  I know the day will NEVER come that he sits
    and puts on a program she likes, except to keep her quiet.  She's young,
    but loves the sights and sounds of Sesame St., Barney (ugh!), etc...
    If he's at our house, it drives him nuts when they're on.   He'd much
    prefer hour after hour of talk shows, with people yelling and b*tching
    and being just plain miserable, and she just sits there on the couch
    beside him.
    
    Hey I know!  How about my daughter comes and stays with you guys
    overnight!!  :-)  :-)
    
    						cj *->
    
    Well, I think you/he have very valid points about the school thing. I
    couldn't agree more that not only is that "too" long, but a major 
    adjustment in any kid's life.   I expect, as you do too, that point
    alone will be brought back up at that time as another reason to delay
    the overnights.
    
    

    Sometimes, moms yank crying babies out of the hands of dad, or go into
    damage mode to change the diapers before dad figures that he is a
    capable person. It took me a warm up to figure. I had baby barf on my
    suit and ties. I have had the poopie on my pants too. Welcome to it.
    
    I too, don't like CJ's problem either. I wish I could grab her ex, and
    talk, beat, jump on the floor boards, some sence into him to what he is
    missing in his life. But, thats life. 
    
    Yesterday morning I picked up Eva from school, she finished first
    grade. It seems hours ago, she was a babe in my arms.... 
    
    Then the million dollar question come forth as we are driving away from
    Amherst St school. She blabbers about her last days, she waves at her
    buddies. One with glass's looking dumbfound thru the rain.... 
    'Daddy... Will I ever be a first grader again?.......'
    'Not unless Mike Fox, and Chris Loyd show up in a Delorian demanding
    you go for a ride with them.....':)
    I got of course a look like I had a thrid eye on my forehead.:)
                                                                   

    Hi  it's me again and I'm looking for some reassurance....
    
    This case is now going before the courts.  The mother refuses to budge
    on easing up the visits and the dad has had enough.  He had his lawyer
    file motions to start with the visitation schedule that I wrote about
    in the base note.
    
    She/her lawyer has now responded with a motion that the mother will
    agree to less stringent visitation BUT that the visits can only occur
    at a suitable location ie a relatives home, a restaurant, library,
    playground, but NOT where the father resides with an unmarried
    (divorced) woman (me) and her two children and that in a couple of
    YEARS they could explore the IDEA of overnight visits with the father,
    but not as long as he is residing with an unmarried woman.
    
    I have pulled myself off the ceiling and am trying to deal with this
    like a rational person....here's my question -- has any one gone
    through this and has the court ever denied visits to the NCP at his
    residence because of his living arrangements????
    
    Thanks in advance,
    
    Roberta

    
    re .9
    
    From my experience, the courts don't seem to care much about whether
    one parent or the other is "shacking up" these days.  Unless the child
    would be in some sort of danger by visiting and/or staying overnight,
    the CP is on pretty thin ice.  That is unless she pulls out the 'ol
    physical/sexual abuse trump card, then you may be in for some problems.
    
    fred();

    
    Question is, "Can he sell that to the judge"?  If the judge buys the
    anger/abuse accusation (which may be better than 50/50) then you
    might get that kind of order.  Otherwise, I suspect your lawyer is
    telling you what you want to hear.

    fred();

    Well, my boyfriend had his day in court (almost didn't because the
    mother decided at the last minute to have her lawyer call his and say
    that the child said that daddy said he's going to kill mommy, the
    laughable part about that is she said the statement was made on July
    9th, yet on July 27th she filed counter motions for less stringent
    visitation, but wanted to control where the child went.) on July 31st.
    His lawyer stated his case and her lawyer stated hers and then the
    judge said that she'd notify the lawyers of her decision.  One week
    later, (8/7) my boyfriends lawyer called to tell him that the temporary
    orders now state he can take the child from the house from 4:45pm -
    7:00 every Mon and Wed and on Sat from 10am-Noon.  On 9/2 the Saturday
    increases to 5pm.  There is no restriction on where the visits are to
    take place.  Of course he received a message stating the child was sick 
    so Monday's visit had to be cancelled.  But he had his visit on Wed and
    it went well.
    
    re: .11, I don't understand the logic of not having the visits
    including the girlfriend because it will confuse the child.  Children
    meet new people every day and no one is concern with that, until it's
    the "other" woman.  Reality is that that woman may have a serious
    impact on the childs life and the sooner they get acquainted the
    better.  If his relationship with the "other" woman doesn't pan out the
    child will only know that woman was a friend of Daddy's.  I realize 
    that is difficult for the mom (I have 2 girls of my own) but I think 
    it's for the good of the child.  In my boyfriends case, everyone is
    concerned about the stress on the child of having to meet me, my girls and
    the rest of his relatives that haven't seen him since his first
    birthday. They (mother and grandmother) think that he should only be
    "exposed" to people one at a time and for very short periods of time. 
    I pointed out to my boyfriend that when my children and I first met his
    family they were all together at a family gathering and we stayed for
    about 3 hours, they were not tramatized in anyway.  Yes, when we first
    got there, they were shy, so was I, but the other kids carted my kids
    away to play and I got involved in conversations with adults.  How come
    when a divorce/separation takes place everyone become concerned with
    how introductions are made?
    
    Roberta    

    re .13

    Let me once again reiterate--DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT.  Keep a
    log of dealings with the CP.  This one sounds like one that will
    have 47 different excuses why the child can't visit.  If you can
    document a pattern that she is obstructing the visitation, the courts 
    really frown on that.  

    fred();

    Believe me everything is document.  My boyfriend has been keeping a
    journal since day one.
    
    Roberta

    	I've been going through something similar. When I started taking
    the kids overnight on weekends, my S2BX made a big stink about my
    girlfriend not being around and, in particular, not staying overnight.
    She went to her lawyer and the guardian ad litem. However, she never
    actually filed a motion with the court. My lawyer said that if she had,
    she very likely could have gotten a motion granted to prevent the
    overnight visits. The guardian ad litem agreed with this. In fact, the
    guardian recommended no overnight visits until YEARS after the divorce
    is final. My S2BX claimed that just being around Daddy and his
    girlfriend was having extremely detrimental effects on the kids. She
    was very careful and clever on how she built this case. The first time
    one of my kids simply MET my girlfriend, the S2BX freaked and came
    close to trying to get a restraining order against me and the
    girlfriend. My lawyer thought she might even be successful even though
    there was no real justification.
    	So my divorce will be final in the next couple of weeks. There have
    been no overnight visits by the girlfriend yet...which is damn
    inconvenient since she lives over an hour away and it means I spend the
    weekend either with her OR with the kids and rarely spend time with
    everyone. Of course, with all the crap I took "for the good of the
    kids," as soon as the S2BX met someone, she introduced the kids to him
    right away and they all started doing things together. Fascinating.
    	At this point, I'm so anxious for the divorce to be over that I
    don't want to rock the boat too much. I can hold off on the overnight
    visits for a couple of weeks. Once I'm divorced, when I think the kids
    are ready, then we'll deal with it.
    	But I thought you might appreciate knowing that you're certainly
    not alone in this sort of thing!

    
    Hmmmm!  Seems very inconsistent since the courts usually don't care
    if the CP is "shacking up".  Unless, as in one case, the shackup
    turned out to have a record of conviction of child molestation.

    fred();

    .16 -- thanks for letting me know that we are not alone.  It just
    really blows my mind the way some people use children and put it under
    the heading for the good of the child.  The best thing for the child is
    to know both parents and to see parents work amicably together.
    
    Roberta

    .11 (VAILLANCOURT)
    
    So when do you go to court and is your ex being flexable about the
    visits?
    
    Roberta

    	Since we're on this subject, I might as well ask. My GF and I have
    been together about 10 months now. It's very serious, and we're
    definitely headed towards marriage. My divorce becomes final next
    Wednesday (Yahooooo!). My sons will be 9 and 11 in November, an
    interesting age to say the least. I have them every other weekend and
    one night during the week. There have been no overnight visits by the
    GF yet. However, we have all done things together during the day, and
    then she leaves in the evening. This stinks because she has over an
    hour drive to get home and feeling like I'm kicking her out.
    	We would like to start overnight visits but aren't sure how to do
    it. The kids are at the age where they're learning about sex. They're
    curious about whether their parents are having sex with the new people
    in their lives.
    	I'm not sure how to approach this with them, if when she stays over
    at first, I should sleep on the couch or whether this might be even
    more confusing. I have no trouble talking to them about anything. I'm
    the one that gave them the sex talks to begin with. My problem is just
    knowing the best way to approach it with them. What has been done
    before which has worked reasonable well. Any advice? Thanks.

    
    I think a little hypocrisy is in order here.  My generation often
    ignores our moral teaching, but at least we have a starting point.
    I sometimes wonder if some of the kids today even know what morality
    is.  A little inconvenience/restraint today may set an example that
    will pay big dividends in the future.  Or  you can just get married
    and be done with it.

    fred();

    I don't really know what to tell you.  I have to girls (6 and 8), when
    I was dating my BF, the girls were the ones who used to ask, why didn't
    he just sleep over so he didn't have to drive all the way home.  So one
    day he said well, if I stay where would I sleep and they said that he
    could stay in my room with me.  Now my girls do know where babies come
    from, but they have not had any extentsive talks about sex.  We just
    laughed at there suggestion and the next weekend they brought it up, he
    did stay over.  They thought it was great.  Then when he was staying
    over frequently the girls thought it would be great if we all moved in
    together.  I told them that would be nice, but neither one of us had a
    place big enough for all of us and what would we do when his son
    started to visit, so they came up with the idea that we should move to
    a big place.  We had many talks with the girls about what might change
    if we were to all live together (mostly about roles - my BF would get
    the same respect and would disciplne them as necessary) the girls were
    all for the idea.  I had a talk with my X about my moving to another
    town and with a man, he said that as long as the kids, my BF and I
    understood that he (X) was their father he didn't have a problem with
    it.  It has 15 months and things couldn't be better (well, once my
    boyfriend gets his son for more time than he has now, it will be).  
    
    Do your kids love your girlfriend or just put up with her?
    
    Do your kids know that marriage may happen in the future?  My girls are
    always telling me and my BF that they want us to get married and don't
    understand why we don't just do it!
    
    Roberta 

    	My kids haven't spent that much time with my GF yet. The S2BX
    caused all kinds of problems for a long time to prevent it. So it's
    only been the last couple of months that they've interacted with the GF
    at all...even though they've known about her for quite a while. They
    like her, but it's all still weird for them (they tell me).
    	They do know that my GF and I are heading towards marriage. We've
    talked about it. We will likely be getting engaged in the very near
    future. My divorce will be final on Wednesday, and there's still
    financial and other loose ends to tidy up (like a house to sell) before
    I could actually remarry. Part of my concern *has* been the moral
    issue. I want the kids to understand about love and commitment, and I
    want them to be comfortable with the idea. That's why I've waited as
    long as I have.
    	Although I must admit that I want the divorce to go through without
    a hitch on Wednesday and don't want to rock the boat! Still, once
    that's over, I still want to do what's right for the kids. I have them
    this weekend. Maybe I should just talk to them about it and see what
    they have to say. If they have strong feelings one way or the other,
    I'll find out quickly. If not, it's probably OK to proceed after some
    explanation.

    re .19
    Sorry about the delayed response, I haven't had the time to get into
    notes for awhile.
    I discussed visitation with my husband, and we decided that the
    suggestion of the lawyer was not going to work.  We have worked out
    visitation between us, where dad comes and gets our son and I go
    pick him up (or visa versa), and they spend time where he is living,
    which is with his girlfriend, with her there.  It didn't make sense to
    us when we discussed it to keep the GF out of my sons life, after all,
    that is where daddy lives.  When I talked to my lawyer about it again,
    he said, whatever I was comfortable with was fine, but that I shouldn't
    feel like I HAD to do it this way, there were options.  My husband and
    I have both agreed that there will be no overnights at least for
    another year or so, just a few hours on specified days, we're doing it
    Tuesdays from 5-9 and Saturdays from 9-12.  Occasionally dad will take
    him longer on Saturday, depending on if they're going to see my in-laws
    or whatever.  It's amazing how well it can all work out when you are
    able to discuss things with each other.
    As for a court date, my lawyer was supposed to file this month, so I
    haven't heard anything yet.  The sooner the better.
    

    Good for you!!!!  I am happy to see parents working things out for the
    children.
    
    My boyfriends visits are going extremely well with his son.  His son
    and my youngest are best buddies.  The mother has even recognized that
    and told my boyfriend when he arrived for last nights visit that his
    son was going to be upset with him if he didn't get to see Amanda.  She
    told him that as parents they mean nothing to Kyle, because all he
    wants now is to see Amanda.  Unfortunately, Amanda had other plans and
    he had to settle for a phone call.
    
    Roberta

    	As a follow-up to my previous note, I have some new information.
    Regarding the overnight visits of my GF (now my fiancee), we were more
    concerned about when the kids seemed ready for this rather than when
    the divorce was final. I suspected the divorce would be final before
    the kids were ready for this anyway. I wanted them to understand that
    there was love and commitment associated with spending the night with
    someone. Although I believed this already, I received continuous
    lectures from my ex about this, and as I mentioned before, she took
    steps to prevent my GF from staying over before the divorce was final.
    	So I was talking to the kids about her staying over the other night
    over dinner. Their response was rather enlightening, "We don't care.
    Bob stays over and sleeps with Mommy all the time." Bob is someone my
    ex just started seeing a few weeks ago whereas I've been involved with
    my fiancee for almost a year. I had forgotten that my ex has a way of
    justifying everything she does as always being best for the children,
    and when I confronted her on this and about her lecturing ME about
    morals, she actually said that it was all my fault! That if I hadn't
    started all this, she wouldn't have been sleeping with Bob with the
    kids there! I was dumbfounded and didn't know what to say. I'll never
    figure out how her mind works, and now, I don't have to!
    	My fiancee still hasn't stayed over while the kids are there, but
    we plan to take that step soon. Hopefully, later in life, the kids will
    appreciate that it was actually me that was more careful and looking
    out for their best interests, as shocking as this would be to my ex and
    others (like my parents who think she can do no wrong and that I'm
    always the bad guy - Yes, I did say *my* parents).

    A question for those of you who have been/are in the BF/GF situation-
    Is this something to worry about before going into court, i.e.,
    can my STB-X cause problems for me if he knows I've been seeing
    someone?  Would it make a difference whether or not my BF stays over
    at the house?  Some history is that my STB-X left my 10 month old
    son (7 month at the time) to go live with his GF whom he had been
    seeing for quite some time.  So he's the one who 'left', etc.  They're
    talking about permanent plans for the future.  Now I have started seeing 
    someone, and he (my BF) is quite concerned that if he stays over it could 
    cause problems for me with my STB-x.  It doesn't seem to me like this is 
    a concern, my lawyer only seems to be concerned with the visitation 
    working out and the child support being paid.  My lawyer also tells me 
    it's going to be a few months before we go over the agreement and get
    into court, because since my STB-x has no history with our child, he 
    needs to be on a routine visitation schedule for awhile to make sure it 
    works out.  I find this very aggrivating because I do not want to remain 
    married to the man, but I understand why it has to wait.  We do get
    along well, discuss things, but I just worry - all the time- about him
    changing his mind or turning on me, I don't trust anyone who breaks
    their marriage vows!  

    I guess this is a case of "do as I say, not as I do".  It's funny how
    they always expect you to follow their rules, but yet they change the
    rules for themselves and then blame it on you!!
    
    Sorry to hear that your parents are supportive of your ex.....
    
    
    Godd Luck,
    Roberta
    

    .27  This can be a very looooooonnnnnnggggg process.  My boyfriend left
    his wife 8/93.  As you know we are now in 9/1995 and they are still not
    divorced.  His lawyer keeps telling him that they need to work out the
    visitation issues before they can proceed with the divorce, which is
    driving me crazy.  I would like the divorce issued and let them fight
    about everything else later.
    
    As far as your boyfriend sleeping over, I (my opinion only and I am not
    a lawyer, judge or anything else that may make a differance) feel that
    as long as you are not doing anything that would harm your child,
    either emotionally or physically ---- go for it.  
    
    My girls (6 + 8) and I have been living with my boyfriend for 16 months.  
    My divorce was not final when we moved in together and my ex's only 
    comment was that he just wanted to make sure that the kids know that he 
    is there father, not my boyfriend.  I told him that I would never tell 
    the kids differantly, but it's up to him to secure his place in the kids
    hearts/lives.  My x has never missed a visit with the girls (every Wed
    and every other weekend)but the girls have asked for additional time
    and he never seems to be able to give it to them.  About 6 months after
    we all moved in together, my girls asked my boyfriend if he would be
    their stepdad.  He told them yes and now they keep asking us when are
    we going to get married......
    
    Roberta                                          

I am trying to find out if this situation is unique or if it is typical....

My boyfriend (who is in the process of a divorce) has recently begun visitation
with his 3 year old son away from the home.  His ex tells him that on the days 
of visitation (Mon, Wed and Sat) his son says that he hates his father and does
not want to go on the visit.  

When my boyfriend arrives his son ALWAYS runs to him and gives him a hug and a
kiss and climbs in the car with absolutely no hesitation.  When it is time for
him to return home, he doesn't want to and when my boyfriend pulls onto his
street you can see a change come over him.  So we know he enjoys being with his
Dad.  So we were just writing off the mothers statements as resentment (she is 
not happy about letting my boyfriend take the child from the house).

Last night his son made a comment after he was in the car for about five 
minutes "I don't like my daddy". (His tone of voice was a casual one, the same
tone you would get if he were telling you about his going to the store with 
grandm) a We asked him what he said and he said "I like my daddy".  So we asked
him if he was mad at daddy and he said no and then asked his dad if he were 
mad at mommy.  My boyfriend replied that he was not mad at mommy, then his son 
asked if mommy was made at daddy and my boyfriend replied that she was not.  My
boyfriend then asked if something was bothering him and he said no, and then 
wanted to know what we were going to do for the visit.

My boyfriend has talked with his ex and she insist that she is always careful
to make sure she says nothing negative about him in the presence of his son and
that the times they have argued over the phone he has not been around.  So we
do not know where this is coming from.  Is this typical for a child who's 
parents are going through a divorce?  Is he just over hearing conversations and
bringing up bits and pieces or do you think that it's something more and we
should seriously consider some professional help?

Thanks for any information you might be able to share.....

Roberta

    	It's VERY typical. Yes, the kids hear things and pick up on that.
    They also see mommy upset after talking to daddy on the phone, and
    knowing that daddy is making mommy upset, the kids resent daddy for it.
    The kids old enough to understand reset the breakup of the family, get
    sick of the arguing, trying to figure out what to say to each parent,
    whose side they're on (little kids always think they have to pick
    sides). All this is very common, as I well know from recent
    experiences.
    	You do the best you can, reassuring the child, not saying bad
    things about mommy, encouraging him to speak and express his feelings.
    Professional counseling often helps. It did with my boys.
    	It was the same with my ex. She'd tell me, my mother, anyone who
    would listen that my sons hated me, didn't want to go with me, said
    nothing but awful things about me when away from me, and that *she*
    would defend me. The kids would run to me, be laughing and joking to
    me, and say things like, "Daddy, why is mommy trying to turn everyone
    against you? She even wants Grammy (my mother) to hate you." So the
    kids pick up on an amazing amount of stuff. Sometimes telling the ex
    that despite the impression she thinks she's giving the child, it's not
    working and she has to try harder to let the kid know that daddy isn't
    a bad person...not that she'll do it, but it can't hurt.

    Yes (sadly) this is typical.  Even though you can't stand the other
    partner, the kids are often losing someone from their lives that they
    love.  It takes a lot of maturity to have a reasonable divorce, and
    immaturity by one or both partners is very often a key cause of the
    divorce in the first place.

    This is why, as I keep hammering on, it important to DOCUMENT,
    DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT, even if right now you don't think you will end up 
    in court. Then if you do end up going to court,  you have established 
    evidence of a pattern of TheX interfering with visitation rights, or 
    deliberately trying to turn the children against the NCP, and the 
    offending party can be in a lot of trouble with the court.  The 
    court may not do anything to the CP the first time, but you have
    at least served notice that you will not tolerate such actions.  If
    the CP is smart they will modify their behavior.  If they are not
    smart, the judge will likely be less sympathetic to them the next 
    time around. 

    fred();

    Okay, another question....how do you handle visitations and a sick
    child?
    
    My personal belief is that if it is a midweek visit I tell my ex that
    one or both of the girls are not feeling well and we try to reschedule
    for the next night (thurs. vs wed), if it is a weekend visit, they go
    to their dad's no matter what.  After all he is a parent and should be
    able to care for them as well as me.
    
    My BF's ex has a totally different view, if their child is sick, he is
    to stay home with her and that's it, no discussion.  My BF and I are
    not really agreeing on this, although he wholehearted thought it was
    okay when my oldest had chicken pox and it was her dad's weekend, when
    his son came down with chicken pox, his x refused to let the child out
    of the house even though both my kids have had it.  He said that's her
    choice and their is nothing he can do.  Are all the cards in her favor? 
    Does anyone have any words of wisdom for us?
    
    Thanks in advance,
    
    Roberta

    If it is not contagious, and the CP would be assured that the child
    would be taken care for, it should be no issue, the child, baring they
    are not on their death bed, should be allowed to go visit. 
    
    There have been times when I as both the NCP and the CP would agree
    that our daughter either stays put, or comes and visits and stays on
    the couch or stays in her bed till she is feeling better. Car is always
    warm, no drafts in the house, and there is lots of chicken soup for her
    little belly and lots of movies to watch if she wants to watch them.:) 
    
    Reguarding making up lost time visitation, thats up to both parties to
    agree or disagree to. But, judge Whopner would say, 'hey, kids sick,
    kids sick. No make up exams.' Had faced this one. BUT!!! IF THE CP uses
    the sick stuff for as a weapon for denial on a constant denial of
    visation. Goood Luck CP!! You Could loose custody!! IF the kid is sick,
    the kid is sick. BUT if the kid is sick cause you dont want to let the
    child see the NCP..... LOOKIE OUT!!!:)
    
    

	  My response when my ex tried to pull the "the children are sick"
     routine was, "what hospital are they in?"  But the situation had a lot
     to do with that, also: it was a three-day custodial period, our home
     was a 45-second car ride from her home, and I had sufficient reason to
     suspect "the children are sick" was her interpretation of a certain
     time of the week having arrived.

	  My own take is that both parents are parents, and fully capable
     of giving appropriate care of a sick child -- even if they disagree on
     what "appropriate" is.  While I think I would reschedule a dinner
     visitation for "sickness," I can't see cancelling a weekend
     visitation, and I would certainly watch out to see whether
     "sicknesses" arose in a pattern related to impending visitation.

	  My understanding is that, in general, if one parent has sole
     physical custody, that parent is presumed to be "the expert" on the
     child's well-being.  So that parent refusing to allow a specific
     scheduled visitation because the child is sick would generally not be
     regarded as actionable.  Only when there is a pattern of denial of
     visitation, or if one parent is denying the other access during a
     custodial period, can things get sticky.

				    Brian

    And if your the NCP and you feel that your getting the run around.
    Start documenting it all. Get a friend to show up with a cam-corder and
    record the denials of visitation. 

    
    Being from the old school on sick kids, I've always been of the 
    opinion that you can't be too careful.  Should not be leaving the
    house and/or traveling.  Unless it's just some cold or something.  
    As far as makeup time.  I think that's fair, but, unless written
    into the court orders, it will depend on cooperation of the
    two parents.  

    I also wouldn't be too concerned about a once-in-a-while "sick" day,
    but if it gets to be a regular happening, especially w/o makeup time,
    then I'd start documenting the happenings and pushing the judge to
    intervene.

    fred();