Conference quokka::non_custodial_parents

    
    To clarify (see 6.92), I did not leave him - he left me.  IF he wanted
    to work on the relationship, he knows that I am more than willing to
    'give it another try'.  For the most part, we are good friends.
    
    As for the "It's too painful" ... if it's hard to be away, then
    wouldn't you want to be WITH him??  He has absolutely as much time with
    Jonathan as he could ever want.  I've never tried to keep him from him.
    
    As for 'legal' ... ha!  He doesn't have the money to pay the legally
    required amount (would've been about $100.00/wk) when he was working. 
    We agreed on $50.00/wk.  
    
    I truly believe that if I were to in any way 'block' his visitation
    that he would do nothing whatsoever to try to gain any visitation.  He
    would just chalk it up to "Life sucks", and go on, without so much as
    another glance backward.  I fear that my son will pick up these
    feelings as well, as he gets older, and he certainly deserves better
    than that.
    
    There should be some sort of test before you become a parent ....!
    
    "What do you think is in the best interests of your child?"
    

    Beats me. I gave you an answer. I am not her to debate it like in
    Wymins notes.:)

    Re .0
    
    There can be one or a combination of several reasons.  I may not
    have them all:  Not saying that any of these are your case:

    1) As George said, visitation may carry other emotional baggage
       that he is unable or unwilling to deal with.
    2) Visitation can be a real hassle if it also involves having
       to deal with a bunch of angry/vindictive questions/accusations
       every time he picks up or drops off the child.
    3) He may feel that he has all the time to visit any time, that
       the child is well and taken care of, and therefore procrastinates 
       in favor of other activities.  Remember that society, in general,
       has given the message that father's aren't really necessary, anyway,
       other than for financial purposes.
    4) He may be afraid of forming yet another emotional attachment
       that can be yanked away at any time, or used as a weapon against
       him later.
    5) He's a jerk that doesn't give a flip anyway.  In which case,
       his absence may be a blessing.

    In this file you get a lot of men who really do care, but we have
    to also recognize that there are some out there that really don't
    care.  Those also make it more difficult on those of us who do.

    fred();

Patty,

There's nothing you can do to *make* dad visit.  Just because a person is a
biological parent does not mean he/she gives a da*n about that child.  Even
when a parent is allowed court ordered visitation with the schedule spelled
out, they do not *have* to visit.  They are allowed to visit then, that's all.

Good luck to you, I hope you can work it out!

Laura

    Thanks for the replies .... I think that his feeling possibly touch a bit 
    of everything that been mentioned ....
    
    My real dilemma is in trying to decide what's best for Jonathan.  I
    have a personal interest in trying to figure out why he's like this,
    but ultimately I just want/need to figure out what the best action is
    going to be for my son.
    
    As an NCP, certainly some of you are denied access to your children. 
    How do you think your kids feel about this?  How do you think they'd
    feel if you didn't really try to see them?  Do you think they'd know
    the difference if you just saw them "when you wanted" versus any type
    of schedule?  I really don't want to disrupt their relationship, and
    I think it's important for a kid to know that both their parents REALLY
    care and REALLY love them.  But if he maintains 'some' relationship with 
    his son, and not something 'regular', then won't Jonathan realize this,
    and simply be confused by sporadic emotions his dad may show towards
    him.
    
    And in general .... I think that there's a H*LL of a lot of fathers who
    get the shaft when it comes to their kids .... you should have free
    access to them, just as "The Ex" does.  You shouldn't be able to "win
    the kids"!!  How many more women would stay in a relationship, if they
    really thought they'd be without their kids if they left?  There seems
    to be a definite attitude of "Hey, I've got my kids, I don't need you,
    see ya!" with a lot of women these days.  Or maybe it's always been
    that way ... 
    
    So, I guess I'll have to try more to make the atmosphere more pleasant
    when Dad's around, and hope that maybe it is 'me' that's making him
    seem like he doesn't want to be around Jonathan.
    
    But when is it better to keep a child/parent separate ??  How do you
    know where that line is?
    
    Patty

    Children have thier own bullsh*t meters. They know when a parent is
    doing bad, lie-ing,etc. They know fast when someone is feeding them a
    line. So, when do you draw a line? You don't, unless the child is in
    danger of harm from the parent. Such as the NCP shows up stinking
    drunk, or that there has been physical harm done to the child. Thats
    all. Insofar as many of us getting visitation, thats another issue. And
    its a sad game. Just play it streight, and play it wise is the only
    advise you can get from any of us.
    
    
    Peace
    

	  I have to agree with those who say that you just can't force a
     non-custodial parent to visit.  If the parent wants to visit, he or
     she will, and if the parent doesn't want to visit, he or she won't --
     and nothing the custodial parent can do will change it either way. 
     (Other than restraining orders to keep the non-custodial parent away,
     of course.) This is a problem the psychologists and I faced in my
     children's case, and there is no good solution.  The solution (such as
     it is) I'm using is to support the children's relationship with their
     mother as much as I can, without forcing it on them.  Eventually this
     will fail, I know -- the children will lose the "fantasy" mom image
     they have, and the relationship will become based on who she is,
     rather than who the children want her to be.  This is already
     happening to some extent.  But even until then, the children get value
     out of the relationship.

	  The trick, as much as there is one, is to identify and remove
     roadblocks, and most particularly not to introduce any.  I don't
     badger her about how she cares for the children, or fails to care for
     them -- I find out eventually, and as long as the children are not in
     physical danger, her relationship with the children is her business. I
     don't use the children as messengers between us, and try to discourage
     her doing it.  The thing I find most distressing is that, as far as
     her relatives are concerned, the children no longer exist.  In
     addition to having their mother move a thousand miles away, the
     children lost their aunts, uncles, and cousins.

	  Yes, it is frustrating.  The only thing you can do is keep
     encouraging a healthy relationship.  Good luck.

				     Brian

    
    re Patty,

    I applaud you attitude.  I understand your frustration.  Here so many
    NCP's are denied visitation, and here you are where you understand
    the value of the _child's_ rights and feelings and _want_ him to 
    maintain a relationship with the father, and the father doesn't
    care.  It has been my contention for years that visitation and
    custody is a matter of the _child's_ rights as well as the NCP's 
    rights.  A fact that seems to be overlooked in the court system.

    My ex has made no attempt to visit the children for over two
    years.  The bottom-line fact is that she'd rather not see the 
    children than pay child support.  I have not made that condition,
    but fact is she can't come in the state without authorities wanting
    to talk to her, and I'll go for the child support anyway if I can 
    get the evidence needed that she is working and capable of paying.

    It's a complicated world.  We try to make too many simplistic answers
    and generalizations.  The same goes with some women aborting their 
    children while others go through all kinds of medical processes in 
    order to have children.  Some even go so far as to steal babies from 
    other parents in order to have children.  And another pet peeve of mine
    when certain groups protest the child being forcibly removed from
    it's mother while those same people applaud the forcible separation
    of the child and their father, and parents who will not pay "child
    support" are "deadbeats" while parents who choose to stay on welfare
    because it pays more than working are "victims".

    fred();

    Thank you again for your responses .... it's sad, but apparantly it's
    something that we're stuck with.  I know that eventually Jonathan will
    see his dad for what he is, but I was hoping that he could have the
    opportunity to know a 'caring' father before that happened.  The poor
    little guy never even got a chance at knowing what a 'family' is like,
    and that really tears at me.  It seems now he won't even know what a
    'separated' family is like.  That only makes it worse.
    
    And so do you think it's worth anything to keep bugging 'dad' to try to
    see him (which he eventually usually does), or should I just let Dad
    decide the whole relationship, and just try to deal with it when he
    never shows up?  I can't decide if much good is coming out of me
    pestering him to see his son.  It's probably good for Jonathan, and if
    his dad ends up hating me for it, that's okay as long as it helps out
    Jonathan in the long run .... Decisions, decisions.... 
    
    I'm torn because I feel if I continue to 'insist', then he'll continue
    to visit with him.  If I stop insisting, he'll stop visiting.  If I
    stop insisting, I'll feel that I let Jonathan down ... but I'm tired of
    trying to pick up the pieces his father leaves.  Keep in mind he's only
    1 yr old, so it seems like a lifelong battle.
    
    And I can't imagine I'd be real receptive if, in 5 years he pops up and
    says "Ok!  Now I'm ready to get to know my kid!"
    
    If I don't get him to a particular time or day or whatever, he takes
    the attitude of "I'll see him when I have time", and then never gets 
    around to it.  If I 'insist', then we decide on a day, and he's okay
    about showing up eventually.  I feel like I'm defending my kid's rights
    here, and I'm not sure if I should stop 'sticking up for' Jonathan, and
    just let it all die its own little death.  It'd be so hard to watch
    that.
    
    ... I can still hope for a large bus! (-:
    
    -Patty

    
    Patty,

    Pestering him to visit will probably do more harm than good in the
    long run.  As for the father, just as my ex, everyone has a right
    to screw up.  If _his_ heart isn't in visiting or being part of
    his son's life, then maybe it's for the best anyway unless/until
    he gets his priorities straight.

    As for your son, you'll be surprised how resilient children can be.
    If the father does eventually come back, then a lot, then as now,
    will depend on what kind of attitude _he_ brings to the relationship.

    I wish there were more women like you who realize the value of a 
    father in the child's life.  Sorry you had to learn it the way
    you did.  Too bad one of them who does has to be wasted on a 
    situation like this.
    
    fred();

Patty,

Steve didn't see his daughter for 9 years, she was one when the relationship
broke up.  I pushed for visitation, sure that she'd want to know her father.
Steve was afraid he'd screw up her life entering it like that, and that she'd
reject him.  Let me tell you, she was overjoyed and full of nothing but love for
him when she finally met him.  After two short months she was ripped out of his
life again, moved away 1500 miles.  The contact has been made and communication
is being kept up.  Kids want to know their parents at any age, I think.

Laura

    Patty,
    
    	One of these days, he will see just how much he threw away.  I am
    one of those "dad's" that is restricted from seeing my son.  I would
    give my right arm and leg to have offerred to me, what you gave him a
    chance at.  I guess that anger/hurt has something to do with it, but if
    you really care about the kids, you put that aside and do what is right
    for them.  As they say, time heals all wounds.  I just hope that comes
    sooner than later in my case.
    
    
    Best of luck!
    Dave

    Thank you everyone for your advice and insight!  I really appreciate
    it, and it has helped me reach some decisions of my own.  I'm now
    struggling to accept his relationship with his son, and the way that he
    wants it, and that it may be far from 'enough', in my eyes.  Jonathan
    will know his father, as his father wants him to know him, and while
    it's difficult, it's clearly best that I just accept what "Dad" does or
    doesn't want to do, or how he wants to be involved, and let the truth
    show itself.  My best hope for Jonathan is that, in the years to come,
    for all the times his father will disappoint him, I hope that I can be
    enough help and show enough love and support to cushion the blows. 
    Trying to 'stop' the blows at all is only making me crazy, and isn't
    really letting Jonathan know the 'real' dad (but I still wonder what
    child ever did so wrong as to deserve a dad like that!!).  
    
    As I've often said to his father - I can deal with him rejecting Me, or
    letting me down - that I accepted long ago, and is clearly just part of
    life.  But when he does the same to his son, that's what really kills
    me.  This has also helped me through some of my own personal issues,
    because he clearly blames me for everything that ever went wrong
    between he and I, and says this is the reason he doesn't want to be
    around me (I've always suspected it's more just a part of his
    personality).  Keeping true to my suspicions, I feel he just isn't the
    type of person who's good at showing any type of devotion or
    dedication, and this seems to be ringing true with his relationship
    with Jonathan (and his other 2 kids as well, and his ex and anyone else
    I can think of in his life ....).  
    
    And so ..... now I go on to learn to bite my tongue, and let him drift
    away from his son.  It will be painful to watch, but I can't spend the
    rest of my life trying to make him seem like something he's not -
    overall, when you calculate in how stressed out it makes me, it
    probably doesn't really help Jonathan any in the long run anyway.  One
    functional parent has got to be better than 2 disfunctional parents. The
    saddest part is this kid just ADORES his father, and his father is too
    dense or selfish or whatever to realize what a precious gift that is.
    
    And d*mn all the parents who see their kids as a tool to get back at
    their ex .... maybe if they could have been more understanding people,
    there wouldn't even be an "EX"-anything to worry about!
    
    Thanks again!
    Patty

 Reply .13

 >Jonathan
 >will know his father, as his father wants him to know him, and while
 >it's difficult, it's clearly best that I just accept what "Dad" does or
 >doesn't want to do, or how he wants to be involved, and let the truth
 >show itself. 

  Your son will also know his father for what you portray his father to
  be. Be careful not to make the mistake of poisoning his hopes of a
  future relationship with his dad. And never tell him that his Dad
  doesn't care or love him even if you know this may likely be the case.
  It is always safe to say to your son that you don't know why his dad
  does or does not do things and to ask his dad why.

 >As I've often said to his father - I can deal with him rejecting Me, or
 >letting me down - that I accepted long ago, and is clearly just part of
 >life.  But when he does the same to his son, that's what really kills
 >me. 

  Your son's father may not have love for his son for reasons that he, you
  and your son may never know. One thing for sure is that only your son
  and his father can change this and it may never be the love your son longs
  for. Be careful not to mistake time spent with your son by his dad to be
  a loving parental relationship. For without love even the time he spends
  with his dad may be disapointing to him.

  Most parents who love their children can't imagine not having those feelings
  of love for their children. Yet many parents do not love their children
  or do not know how to show it and thus can't be bothered in giving them their
  time. This happens even in conventional families. The problem is getting your
  son to understand that a parents love is something which does not always come
  naturally and sometimes not at all. This however does not mean that he should
  stop having feelings of love for his dad.

  Best Wishes!

     Neil...

    
    Neil,
    
    That's definitely one of the harder things, is not to show my
    frustration with his father.  I do believe, that in his own way, his
    dad loves him, but he has no concept of how to show that, or things to
    do for/with Jonathan that may make him FEEL that way.  Dad's idea of
    spending time together, is if they both happen to be within a mile of
    each other.  It doesn't have to involve DOING anything, nor necessarily
    even being within sight of each other.
    
    For example, with his other 2 kids, they were with him last weekend. 
    He said they had a nice day together, quiet, just spent the day
    together.  I was confused because I knew he spent the day w/ his dad,
    and said "I thought you sealed the driveway?"  his response was "Well,
    yeah, but the kids were THERE!".  Inside watching TV all day.  And
    that's his idea of 'spending time with' his kids.  I know that his
    daughter was VERY upset when he dropped them off because they didn't DO
    anything together, so I definitely understand what you mean about time
    being spent together still possibly being disappointing.
    
    It's really impossible for me to understand how you could be anything
    less than devoted to your kids - maybe I take it 'too seriously', but
    to me it's pretty darn serious - they're just little people - they're
    not 'toys', and they won't BE little forever, and might not even BE
    there forever.
    
    I would never have the heart to tell any child of mine that their
    father doesn't care for them.  If my two older boys ask me something
    about their dad that I don't have an answer for, I do take the "I don't
    know, why don't you ask Dad?".
    
    I do still wonder/worry that love from one parent might be enough for
    my son.  If nothing else, Jonathan will notice a drastic difference in
    the way his parents treat him, and whether one is good and the other
    bad, doesn't seem to have as much impact as just the CONFUSION of it
    all will have.  "How come Daddy doesn't give me hugs?  How come Daddy
    doesn't go to school things?  How come Daddy doesn't call/visit?" 
    'Maybe Mommy does too much!' ... it's scarey to think that Jonathan MAY
    grow up thinking that the way his dad treats him, is the way that
    a father SHOULD treat his son.  
    
    It never ever occurred to me that I'd have to be concerned with someone
    who can't be bothered with their child.  I never thought I'd ever know
    people like that - much less share a child with someone like that!!!!!
    
    And so we go on .... hoping that enough is enough.
    
    
    Thanks!
    Patty
    
    p.s. anyone interested in showing Jonathan what a REAL dad could be? 
    (-:  I imagine in a year or so it's going to matter a LOT to him!  They
    should have 'adopt-a-dad' programs to make up for all the idiots out
    there!  How many kids would love a dad in their life!  ALL of them!

    
    	Your trying too hard....don't try to control the jerk. Do you have
    any type of decree defining visitation, etc.? Go on with your life and
    try to make things as normal as possible for your child.
    	My wife's ex. has been in and out of his children's lives for
    years, the kids still idolize him......there is nothing that you can say
    that will change the situation....you'll possibly only make it worse in
    your child's eye's. My wife and her ex are very bitter towards one
    another and it's taken it's toll on the children....I got some
    stories....
    
    take care...

    There is a Dec employee who has custody of 5 kids. And the baby girl,
    maybe 18 months, was never picked up for visitation by her mom. Mom
    picked up the older children. Guess, the ol saying, "I cried because I
    had no shoes, till I met a man who had no feet' is applicable
    sometimes.
    

    
    There's nothing legal at all between the baby, his father and/or I,
    except that his name and my name are on the birth certificate.  We had
    agreed to a visitation schedule, which is the only thing I was hoping
    to 'hold onto' for Jonathan's sake, but that seems to be too much for
    him.
    
    I've often been accused of trying too hard, or giving too much to
    people who don't deserve/accept/want it.  
    
    Although I have taken to ignoring him much more than usual, lately, and
    all of a sudden his feathers are all ruffled, and he's wanting to know
    WHAT'S the matter with ME!  He hates it if I bug him, and now he's
    hating that I'm not.  Tough.  
    
    I am going on, and moving forward, and trying to improve my life with
    Jonathan.  If "dad" decides he wants to be a part of it, that's going
    to have to be his decision, and it's going to require his effort.  And
    that's the end of that. (...but it still makes me feel so bad that he
    doesn't care for his own child!!!!)
    
    Still looking for that big bus for him .... (-;
    
    As for 'idolizing' him .... I can't imagine that would ever happen. 
    He's just too quick to disappoint people, and it's the kind of
    disappointments that really sting.  Promised his daughter he'd go to
    her school luncheon Monday, and then backed out at the last minute
    because there was a demo at the fire dept he wanted to go to instead.
    You can see the 'sting' in her eyes (well, I can - he can't.)  It's hard 
    to idolize someone who dumps on you all the time.  
    
    Thank you all for your help - it was the support and strength I needed
    to be able to go on, and realize I just have to accept him, in all his
    inadequacies as a dad, and hope that maybe I can meet someone who'll be
    there for Jonathan in a much more positive sense.  Obviously he won't
    be DAD, and Jonathan will probably still want to know dad, but even
    still, in some way it should help ...
    
    What goes around comes around, and when "Dad's" older and wants his
    grown children as part of his life, and they don't have the time for
    him, he'll see what he's done.  Too late, but clearly anyway.  I could
    never 'tell' him how I feel about his dad, other than "Things didn't 
    work out" ... I tell him now all the time that he's father's a pain in
    the butt, but as soon as he starts to understand things at all, that's
    going to have to stop )-:   As a kid, my mother used to tell us **ALL**
    the time what an a**hole my father was and wouldn't let us see each
    other.  I used to resent that so much, because *I* didn't think there
    was anything wrong with him, and she made me feel guilty for loving
    him.  It's all come back on her now, and now none of us kids can even
    tolerate her, and we're real close with my dad.  I guess it worked for
    her for a while, but sooner or later there's a point where you can't
    control your kids thoughts/actions, and that's when the truth comes
    out, and slaps the 'lying' parent in the face.
    
    But how can you look yourself in the mirror and screw with your kids'
    lives like that at the same time?!?  
    
    THANK YOU!!!
    

    
    	Have you gone to Court to be reckonized as the Custodial Parent ?
    You may want to look into this asap to protect yourself and your child 
    from any incidents that may require intervention by the Courts, Social
    Services, etc..
    	Get it on paper!!!!!!!I'm sure some people in here can help you out
    in this area.
        Please don't take the attitude that "It'll never happen to me!"
    
    take care,

    
    Okay .... what do I need to do to "make it legal"?  Does it require a
    support settlement as well?  I wouldn't think, in a bazillion years,
    that he would even get the IDEA to take him, much less actually put
    forward any thought to act on it.  And he's got no place to take him -
    living in his parent's basement for the past 9 mos or so, and no plans
    to change that (or any means to change it either).  Besides, Jonathan
    would get in the way of his 'real' life.
    
    But, what's it take anyway ... ??
    
    Thanks!
    Patty

    
    re .20

    Might want to take this one up with a lawyer.  I've never heard of
    a case like this where the father would actually be able to just 
    take the child, but theoretically, as the father and natural parent,
    he has as much right to the child as you do.  Any custody issue
    would probably involve a support issue, but most (if not all) states
    consider custody/visitation and support separate issues.

    fred();

    
    	You can call family services in Probate and ask what the process
    involves. It doesn't have to cost anything if you can both work it out
    and have them document it. Of course you'll probably end up in front of
    the judge who'll ask about support, etc....
    good luck