Conference quokka::non_custodial_parents

    Bob,
    
    Your going to get allot of flowery stuff in this string. They will tell
    you to do every thing including climb the mountian and swim seas. 
    
    But, the reality, is that it will depend upon two factors. That will be
    the wishs of the Ex and the attorney she hires. If all parties will
    agree. Chances are you could get non-adversarial divorce. 
    
    But..... as I can tell you from watching many of these go down. You
    will find that it will be a blood letting war. And its best to be
    prepaired right now for it, put up all shields, batten down the hatch,
    and prepare for the worst. When the storm clears, then you can build
    bridges.
    
    I have made some contact with the opposing camps relitives (the
    outlaws) since the divorce. I do this for my daughter. But I keep a
    safe distants from them as an over all as you might. 
    
    As it was once told to me by one of my many attornies,"Its a problem of
    the late 20th century, and there is not allot you can do about it."
    That is a quote from Luci Pillsbury Esq. of Nashua. 
    
    Other than that Bob. Count your luck stars that you have temp custody
    for IF the children were in custody of you Ex the children might be in
    tuff streights as many other children out in there are. Count your
    lucky stars because EVEN if she decides to go for custody, it will be
    tuffer for the courts to reverse custody. For the person who has
    custody in the opening rounds of this fight winds up with the children.
    
    Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind, and sometimes you have to be
    tuff as nails to give your kids a fighting chance to have a good life.
    
    Peace
    divorce,

    I second what George says, Be tough until you have clear custody of
    your daughters.  Don't give an inch.  Build bridges after this is all
    settled.  There will be many years more to be kind to you estranged
    wife, don't do it now.  Always keep your guard up now and later.  The
    most important thing is that your daughters grow up without the pain of
    an alcoholic parent.  If your wife stays on the wagon from now on it
    will mean that you have woken her up.  But be prepared for the fact
    that she may not be able to.
    
    You should worry about the kids, and let the professionals handle your 
    wife, don't jeopardize your custody under any circumstances by letting
    her back into the house.
    
    Good Luck, you are off to a good start! 
    

    Well at least now she does intend to fight for physical custody. 
    I cannot take the chance of losing physical custody now beacause it
    would limit my ability to regain it if her recovery does not go well. 
    I'ld love it if she could understand that my love for the children
    prohibits me from taking them away from her, that my only concern is my
    ability to keep them safe, but I know that's likely to be impossible.
    
    Thanks for the encouragement and advice.
    
    Bob

	  Bob, I suspect that once the adversarial positions are reached,
     the only way out is for one party to give up.  To do otherwise would
     need both of you to start trusting simultaneously -- and while that
     might happen, somehow it seems doubtful to me.

	  While peace and cooperation are good long-term goals, it may be
     that they have to stay that: long-term.  Throughout my two-year
     divorce, I (and the psychologist, the GaL, and both attorneys) tried
     to establish cooperation.  It only came when my ex and I settled....
     And now my problem is keeping her in the children's lives....

	  There is life afterwards.  As long as at least one of you views
     the children as a prize to be won, and perceives a chance of winning,
     then an offer of peace by the other looks like an invitation to lose.
     It's sad, but that seems to be the way it plays out.  But afterwards,
     once the dust settles, cooperation may be possible.

	  Good luck -- for you and the children.

				     Brian

        Bob,

    Be careful that you don't get caught up so much in how you _wish_
    things _could_ be that you loose site about how things _are_.  
    I've seen a lot of men get caught up in this with devastating results.

    I second what George said in .1.  Hope for the best, but prepare for
    the worst.  To have a sane and rational relationship requires _two_
    sane and rational people.  For now, doen't let yourself or your kids
    get sucked into her whirlpool.

    fred();

    Thanks - good input from all!
    
    Yes, I have been operating as if the worst case scenario were true.  I
    just can't trust her now.  Alcoholics become masters at manipulation,
    they need to be to hold their lives together.  I am taking care of
    myself and my kids and I need to guard against feeling guilt about what
    is happening in her life.  For example, she wants to spend time with
    kids in house (despite a court order) but that is incompatible with my
    priorities.  The kids would be confused and I don't want to spend much
    time with her now.
    
    Thanks again for the thoughtful replies.  Bob

    
    
     I'll simply add what my lawyer told me when I said that "she" could
     have whatever she wanted...(and my lawyer was considered one of the 
     best by her peers)...
    
     She simply said "Remember, nice guys finish last"!!!
    
     and she was right.....
    
    
    

    >>Nice Guys Finish Last
    
    Thats why you gotta be tuff as nails. For if you finish last in this
    game. Your children may not have what is really best for them. And it
    is not an issue here of being the nice guy. It is an issue of what is
    BEST for those kids. And despite the constant barage of crappie about
    children being better off with moms is pure fiction. 
    
    What is reality is that children grow up in the BEST enviorment
    possible. And If that means that mom with her AA problems takes second
    place in the game. So be it.
    
    Peace, Love, and Divorce

    
    I have something I must say, which I feel is in the best interest of
    the children.  The author did not state how old the children are, but I
    would suggest counceling for them.  First of all, they must learn how
    to deal with the divorce, and being separated from their mother.
    Secondly, they must learn about the alcoholism.  If they are old
    enough, I suggest having them attend Alateen meetings.  Just because
    they are not around the alcoholism, does not mean they are not effected
    by it.  They must learn that alcoholism is a disease, and it is also
    very hard on the alcoholic to fight this disease.  
    
    The author must realise that his ex-wife may not *want* to drink, but
    does because of the addiction.  The author should also attend Al-Anon
    meetings.  I do understand that the author does not live with the ex,
    but Al-Anon will help him learn more about the disease.  The disease
    will always be there whether or not the alcoholic stops drinking ---
    once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic -- when I was in Alateen, my
    group leader told me to think of alcoholism like a pregnant woman. 
    When a woman is pregnant, she is carrying a child; after birth, she is
    a mother for life.  The same with alcoholism -- if you ask any sober
    alcoholic if they are still an alcoholic, they will say "yes".
    
    The author should also keep in mind that studies show that alcoholism
    is a hereditary disease, therefore your children should be aware that
    they will have alcoholic tendancies as they get older -- they may not
    drink, but they may take the disease out in other areas of their lives
    -- ie. gambling, spending additions, eating disorders.  
    
    I am not defending anyone here, I am just looking out for the childrens
    best interest and they should be educated about this disease.  
    
    Good Luck
    Debby
    

    An update....
    I still haven't discovered the route to becoming non-adversarial about
    this divorce.  My wife still views this as only one of us wins.  The
    hearing on 12/6 resulted in my continuing to have physcial custody 
    through 3/17 - by that time it'll be 5 months that the girls are
    with me.  I'll keep trying to get to the high ground and reach
    agreement on the major issues around finances and our parenting of the
    girls.                                        

    
    I was listening to a local radio station this morning and heard a
    report that one of the reporters did on the local divorce courts.
    The reporter (a woman) was shocked to find just how screwed up
    the courts were and was quite candid that judges and Guardian
    ad-lidems were not trained for faily court and judges particularly
    did not like hearing divorce/custody cases because then 1) weren't
    "glamor" cases and 2)were very emotional cases.  Nor did they do a
    very good job of looking after the "best interest of the children"
    (neither judges nor guardian ad-lidem).
    
    I was rather surprised at the report being so critical comming
    from a female reporter.  I expected another tirade over dead-beat
    dads.
    
    Even Bill and AlGore are now admitting Dan Quale was right.  Could
    it be that we are beginning to see a turning of the tide and a
    recognition of the value of fathers in the home?
    
    fred();