Conference quokka::non_custodial_parents

    
    
    when I was going throught divorce/custody I complained that my ex
    was "shaking up" and was told "As long as it doesn't present a
    physical danger to the child, it doesn't matter.  We can't tell
    people how to live their lives".
    
    I didn't care for it much either.  
    
    fred();

    Either get the church after his butt. Or just forget it unless you find
    she is a child molesting, ax murder, who does drugs, and serial kills
    for fun and happy-ness.:)
    
    I wish I could find those serial killer cards!:)

    According to my boyfriends lawyer, it all depends on the Judge you get. 
    Some judges frown upon co-habitation, as it is not a good example for a
    young child --- then there are some judges to whom it doesn't matter.  
    Talk to your lawyer, as he/she should know the judges and how they feel
    about this type of situation.  My boyfriends lawyer told us that if we
    were living together his ex could go to court and order no overnight
    visits-- that is if she wanted to be a pain in the butt.
    
    Personally I feel that it is none of the business of the ex's as to
    what the other ex does or how the other ex lives.  In some cases if the
    ex is living with another person, it can be an even more stable
    environment for the child than when the parents were living together.  
    
    Also, you must decide where your feelings are coming from.  Is it that
    you are upset at your ex for now living with a woman??  or is it that
    you don't feel that this woman is a proper role model??
    
    Good luck
    
    Debby
     

    (I may have mentioned my experience in previous, as well)
    
    It also depends on the state you are divorcing in.  In the People's
    Republic of Oppressivechusetts, you stand a very good chance of 
    determining everything about the visitation, to include denial of
    overnights.  I would ask only that you do some seropis soul-searching
    as to what real damage is being done to your child versus how you are
    feeling.  The child is screwed because of the divorce anyway; anything
    else is just added onto it.  I can assure you most solemnly that the
    more civil you and your ex can be, the better off your child will be.
    Pick and choose your end positions carefully, please.
    
    As for my own experience, my ex tried it with me.  At the time I had
    a girlfriend, who stayed over on weekends, and my children loved her
    from the first moment they met, AND - this was important to my girlfriend,
     myself, and my children as they told me later - my girlfriend and I 
    did not sleep together in their presence for a very long time (years).
    Keep in mind, this was important to us; doesn't mean it is to everyone.
    
    At any rate, when the ex discovered how much the children liked my
    girlfriend, she began court proceedings to prevent overnights.  It 
    would have gone through, except for one small detail she left out, 
    which I informed the court of:  She had a livein boyfriend at this
    time.  The judge was furious, as was her lawyer when this little 
    tidbit became known.  My lawyer informed me that that was the only
    thing that saved the overnights; otherwise, she would have gotten the
    court order.
    
    So, as a female with physical custody, in the People's Republic of
    Oppressivechusetts, you have far far too much power of the court;
    weild it with discretion by keeping in mind that what goes around,
    comes around - somehow, someway, someday.  As with any decision or
    venture, first find that inner part of you that truely knows your
    true self.  If you are truely at peace with a given decision, then
    do it.  If there is unrest in that inner place, then it is not the
    real you; don't proceed.
    
    Peace,
    
    Bill

 Cohabitation by two unwed adults in the presence of children in my book
 is not appropriate behavior if you want to raise your children with good
 moral standards. However we all know too well that this type of behavior
 is so commonplace these days. Because of this the court system considers
 it normal behavior and therefore unless there is explicit sexual behavior
 being performed in front of children they will usually not rule against
 cohabitation in the presence of minor children. I tried to get the court to
 prohibit my estranged wife from cohabitating while our children stayed
 overnight with either of us but the temporary orders stated no restrictions.
 She has not cohabitated in their presence yet probably due to her lawyer
 recomending that she doesn't until after the final custody hearing. After that
 all bets are off. I'll still make this an issue in the divorce proceedings
 because of principals but the court will most likely not make a ruling on it
 according to my lawyer. So the best you can do is set an example for them by
 the way you behave with your future friends/lovers and practice what you preach.
 Your children will know what is right and wrong as they mature in society and
 they will learn by your relationships as well as his on how they will relate
 with their future partners.

 Good Luck!

   Neil....

    RE:  .5
    
    Neil:
    
    Even if your ex (soon to be) decides to provide a less than appropriate
    model in your view, you still have the opportunity to present your
    children with an alternative view. And, yes, the children WIll know.
    
    Your situation sounds pretty close to mine.  My ex, simply because I
    asked her not to, presented my children with what I considered to be
    inappropriate behavior.  The easiest way to image this, and I do this
    without malice, is to picture her bedroom with a revolving door on 
    the entrance.    Did it have an impact on the children?  You better 
    believe it!  Did the court care?  You better believe it doesn't!
    
    And so, yes, in due time children do come around.  While their physical 
    custody environment was inappropriate, at least with me they were given 
    an alternative.  I like to think it had a positive impact, and from what 
    they've told me so far, it has.
    
    Once again, the children become innocent victims.  The key is to turn
    them into innocent survivors.
    
    FWIW.
    
    Bill

Since this topic is discussing cohabitation, I want to add a point of view
from another perspective.

I've been legally separated from my EX since 1989, but soon to be divorced
this fall. Up until recently, I've been living with family to get back on my
feet financially. Last spring I met a woman of my dreams, we are both very
much in love with a very stable relationship. A couple of weeks ago I moved
into her place, but only after we decided to get married to each other. The
wedding plans are in full swing but it doesn't happen until July 1994.

She has custody of two girls aged 12 and 16, while I am a non-custodial parent
of a son aged 9. My son and the 16 year old are quite favorable with the fact
that we are getting married. The 12 year old, is another story, she has been
not so receptive, but for a reason. My new SO's EX, is filling her mind with
all sorts of doom and gloom thoughts. There has been moral type stuff, it will
fail, you'll be left with nothing and so forth being pumped into her. On the
other hand, my SO's EX would be much happier to see it fail and so his
motivation to cause problems. Some of this is based on the fact his own
relationship has not been so stable. He also has a history or physical abuse
when my SO was married to him. He has a very controlling and dominating
personality, in fact similar to my own EX, so it is not new to me. They can
twist things around to make them selves look good and us bad very easily in a
mind of a 12 year old. 

My SO has been divorced from this character for 12 years and has never
remarried or had anyone live with her while the children have been around.
I've never exposed my son to live IN'S either as my SO and I believe that
children shouldn't be exposed to, here today, gone tomorrow relationships.

We feel that what we are doing is based on real commitment and love and wished
not to miss a single moment of our lives together. But we didn't jump right
into this without considering our children. A lot of discussion whet on
between my son and I and my SO did the same with her two girls. It wasn't
until the children felt comfortable about what we were about to do that we
took the first step. It wasn't until my SO's EX discovered that we were now
living together that he began poisoning the 12 year old's mind.

So today, we have a 12 year old that is getting out of control, and we both
must try and handle the situation the best we can. There isn't too much we can
do to stop this mental abuse and the system is blind to these sort of things.

Do I think that cohabiting is morally wrong before marriage?
No, not as long as there is a stable relationship with real commitment.

How do you know this is true?
You feel it deep inside you, you feel secure, comfortable, not second guessing
what's happening, your gut feel is strong about the relationship and you feel
the love and caring coming from your partner.

I think what happens a lot is people cohabit for not so genuine reasons, they
don't like being alone, their genitals think for them, their insecure or
don't feel good about them selves and possibly others. For these selfish
reasons, kids should not be exposed to what I would call unstable relationship
traits.

John

(who has been absent from this notes file far to long, nice to be noting here
once again)