Conference quokka::non_custodial_parents

>Without presenting any evidence at all, her attorney pursuaded the judge
>to require a supervisor for visitations.  The first supervisor (chosen by
>her and agreed to by me) lasted several months, with a few problems.  For
>example:  visitation scheduled for 2 hours, from 2 to 4 PM.  I asked them to 
>meet me at point X, they arrived at 3:30, and the supervisor pulled them
>out promptly at 4.
>
Where was your lawyer? I would have kicked up such a fuss and appealed such
nonsense. Secondly, I would not have agreed to any supervisor she has chosen,
this has set a precedent which will be hard to break. I can see this haunting
you in the future to prove you cannot be trusted with your children.

>I subsequently found out that the suggested supervisor had been spreading
>rumors about me on a commercial on-line service with a "chat" capability saying
>that I was a child molester, had AIDS, had 6 months to live because of AIDS,
>and the like.  I didn't agree to option 1) above because I simply refuse to
>pay to see my own children, and didn't agree to 2) because I believe this
>person is sick.  So, I haven't been seeing them recently.
>

DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT ......
dates, time, place, who, what,where, etc.....

>On Christmas Day, I left a message for them on my wife's answering machine
>(She never answers the phone in person since the breakup) wishing them a
>Merry Christmas.  I've gotten no call back, and no "thank you" for the gifts.
>
Old trick, if you must leave a message, be nice and document date, time and what
was left on the machine. If your nasty on the tape, it could used against you
later.

>The kids obviously don't want to see me.  I can't see my kids,
>but my wife's boyfriend and the person spreading rumors about me can see them
>anytime they want.  I'm tired of everyone telling me that "they" know more
>about being a father than I do.  The Guardian, for example, told me that,
>although I "obviously" (to him) posed no threat to my kids, "I talk to them
>like they were adults, not children".  Well, maybe I do.  I tell them I love
>them a lot, but tend to talk more intellectually, I guess.  Is that a crime
>these days?
>
If you had a good relationship with them before this happened, school plays,
outings, etc... and now you don't, another old trick, the CP poisons the
childrens minds about how bad the NCP is. If there has been a drastic change in
your childrens attituded towards you, you can bet it has been done. Hard to
prove, but again, document, document, document all this kind of stuff. A record
of what has happened is better than none and carries a bit more weight than
verbal records.

>I guess the basic problem I have is that I'm _so_ tired.  Tired of fighting
>to see kids who apparently don't want to see me.  Tired of everyone who 
>thinks they know more about parenting than I do.  Tired of spending up to
>$1,000 every time I walk into court.  Tired of fighting a terribly vindictive
>wife with her vindictive friends.  Luckily, my attorney can be a real
>heavyweight in court when I need him to.
>
Yup, it's tough, but keep on trucking. We are here to support and let you know
your not alone. Vindictive ex-spouse and friends are hard to ignore, but to
survive, just ignore and resist any tempation to respond to the crap. It may
stop if they do not get a reaction from you either way.

BUT DON'T FORGET TO DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENS. 	
Who knows, it may come in handy to prove the ex shouldn't even have custody but
you.

Keep smiling........

John

    re .0 Paul,
    
    How to fight back?  At this point:
    
    1) Keep trying.  I know this is a real &%#$, but this is likely her 
       main goal and she can only win if you quit.  Even if you loose,
       someday you will win, because the kids, unless they are totally
       braind dead, will someday know that you cared enough to keep
       trying.
    
    2) Don't let her make you loose your cool.  No where, no time, no how.
       If you "loose it" then you've just proven everything that she's
       been saying.  In *everything* you do, especally in relation to the
       kids, do it calmly, quietly, and in control.  Eventually the kids
       will be able to think and see for themselves.
    
    3) Document, document, document... Keep all papers.  Keep a
       journal/diary and log everything that happens.  Who, What, When,
       where, what happened.  Documents and journals are admissable 
       evicence in most states.  This will help you keep you thoughts
       straight as well.
    
    4) Know your rights.  Don't put yourself at the mercy of your lawyer.
       Go to a public library or a university liberary and ask them for 
       help in locating the law books.  *Study* the sections on family-
       law/divorce.  This is tough reading and a %$#@ emotionally, but
       think of it as fighting back.  When you know your rights and
       know the law, she won't be able to push you around so easily, and
       you'll know if your lawyer is really representing you or selling
       you down the river.
    
    5) If you can, locate a local men's/ncp support group. They will
       help with the emotional part and hopefully give you the opportunity
       to help make some real changes in the system.  I believe  that
       real changes in the system will only come if/when men/ncp's 
       get organized into some real political clout.   
    
    Hope this helps.
    fred();

    Thanks for the replies so far ... they've been helping!
    
    I think my most basic problem right now, aside from all the factual
    stuff in .0 (plus *much* more which I didn't bother to get into) is
    that I'm up in the air about whether I *want* to see my kids.
    
    Philosophically, of course, I do ... because I love them and miss them. 
    But the last several times I've seen them, they're distant, they won't
    give me hug, they're critical, etc.  Frankly, it's not what you'd call
    an enjoyable time.  (The guardian ad litem even encouraged them to hit
    me on the head with soft toy animals to "let me see that they were
    angry with me".  Sheesh ... I had *that* figured out already.)
    
    So, in practice, I don't look forward to situations where I'd have to
    force my kids to come to a visitation in order to see them, and as a
    result, have a miserable time.
    
    On the other hand, I know it's important that they sense that I care
    about them and love them.
    
    What's the solution?
    
    
    Paul

    Kids have had you yanked from the sean as a parent. They don't know
    what to make of you. Execpt what mom says. Or what they precieved you
    to be. I have had this alienation happen to me. But I was able to
    overcome it with constant visitaition, playing with her. Giving big
    hugs when she was in need. 
    
    This morning, as I got Eva dressed. She anounced to me that I wasn't
    big enough to wear a dress....... At 6'2" 250lbs....... :-) Shure hun!
    I hope I never get that big! :-)
    
    
    George 
    

Paul,

In your last reply you pointed out the visitations currently are not enjoyable
because your children seem distant, critical and only get the mother's side of
the truth or a distorted truth.

I must admit, during my first 6 months or so, my son seemed at times distant and
or would demand attention from others than from myself. Needless to say, some
visits were not enjoyable from my point of view. As things started to settle
down a bit, he was beginning to see that Dad was not the bad guy he was made out
to be. Kids are smart, they know when they have been fed a line of crap from the
CP as to how bad the NCP is. It just takes some time and real patience on your
part to ride it out. When they have been with you enough, they soon see through
the crap and work things out for them selves.

Two years have past since my problems started, my son now wants to visit me more
often than the every other weekend he does now. We now have an understanding
that it is his choice to visit, or not to visit every other weekend.

I am quite sure your supervised visits make this even more difficult for you and
your children. It may require far more time and patience than what I had to
endure. Since from your note I sense you do love your children and want to see
them, ride it out, they will come around.

John

    Paul,
    
    If your ex has gone so far as getting the court to make visitation
    supervised-only.  She is likely dealing with some major hate or her
    part.  This hate is spilling over on the kids whether it is vervbalized
    or not.  So the the kids are probably just funneling her hate on to
    you.  Because to them *you* are the one that's responsible for making
    *their* lives miserable because *your're* the one causing their mother
    to be so miserable.
    
    The only way you're going to be able to counteract that is to *be you*.
    To spend enough time with them that they can see for themselves what
    kind of person you are.  When that happens, the ex is going to suffer
    a big back-lash from the kids for all the hate she has been dumping
    on them.
    
    When my ex left, it was two years before I saw my kids again.  My
    youngest did not even know I was her daddy.  My second youngest
    had been only about 2, and the first two years of his life I had been
    away a lot.  So he didn't know me all that well either.  The first
    few visits were a real b**ch to say the least.  Just the fact the
    they were there reminded me of all the b*ll s*** going on.  The fact
    that they were going to  have to leave again tore my guts out.  
    
    So hang in there.  Don't let her drive you away from your kids.  It
    WILL get better, and whether she "wins" in court or not.  I gurantee
    that eventually the ex is going to be the big looser in this.
    
    fred();

>    Philosophically, of course, I do ... because I love them and miss them. 
>    But the last several times I've seen them, they're distant, they won't
>    give me hug, they're critical, etc.  Frankly, it's not what you'd call
>    an enjoyable time.  (The guardian ad litem even encouraged them to hit
>    me on the head with soft toy animals to "let me see that they were
>    angry with me".  Sheesh ... I had *that* figured out already.)
    
    It sure sounds like there is an influence that is making these children
    angry with you.  It's going to be tough, but it will get better if you
    continue to show the dedication to your children that you have already
    been showing them.  I don't know what state you're in, but in my state
    it is against the law to alienate the other parent from the children.
    Your soon to be ex's words as well as her attempt to make visitation
    as unbearable as possible need to be dealt with.  I think continuing
    to exercise your visitation and not allowing yourself to appear angry
    is a good start.

    The guardian ad litem doesn't seem to be helping with the situation
    either.  By encouraging the children to take out their anger on you,
    he is re-enforcing the idea that they are justified in feeling that
    anger.  Most of the guardians in my area are lawyers not qualified to
    provide pyschiatric diagnosis or treatment.  Even if he is qualified,
    I don't believe that it would be proper in his role as guardian to
    provide such a service.  Rather, I would think that family therapy is
    something that would be required to be provided by an uninterested
    party.  Dealing with guardians can be really complicated because you're
    faced with standing up for your rights and at the same time not angering
    the person who holds your childrens future in his hands.  Your best weapon
    is to remain calm and to continue to visit your children.  Most of all
    document everything.  eg. I think my daughter's guardian felt compelled
    to recommend visitation 50% of the time because my documentation showed
    that I was already exercising that amount of visitation.

    Gary

    How does someone make the court decide on supervised visitation?

    
    Supervised visitation is ordered when the Court determines that there
    may be a danger to the children from the person that they are visiting.
    
    fred();