Conference quokka::non_custodial_parents

    
    
    Dean,
    
    Could you put in more info on this law.  How is this going to be
    worked?  Are the ncp who have agreements in force now going to have
    to modify those agreements?  At who's expense?  How is the state
    going to enforce this?  When did this happen?  Why wasnt there
    any notice to the noncustodial parents?
    
    This is absurd!!!!
    
    Michele

    
    Michele, 
    
    I have little info on this law except for 
    1) I learned about it at the DAD's meeting last week from someone
       who is very active in NCP rights, and in fact this individual is
       planning a week long hunger strike in front of Gov. Welds office to
       demonstrate his plight. ( not specifically about this new law )
    2) I expect this person to get in touch with me personally when his
       demonstration plans solidify.
    3) I will then ask the people of this notes file who identify with
       his/our plight to sign a petition supporting his views.... perhaps
       it will have some additional effect on the governor.
    4) Because this new law affects me directly I was/am definitely
       interested in it's repeal
    5) I called my lawyer ( who's been out with a new baby ) to inquire
       if this was indeed a new law..... 
    6) She called her office .... alas it's true.... 23 or perhaps till
       grad... could go on for ever.... but because she hadn't personally
       read the law she couldn't answer my questions.
    7) I don't have any set agreement..... If your agreement said until 21
       then perhaps it's binding... but because mine is open ended I get
       shafted... ( and I never agreed to any of it %^) (it hurts to laugh))
    8) So, I have no answers for you..... only the bearer of bad news...
    
    	dean

    I have a situation I'd love to see tested against this law!  As a NCP,
    I've been paying an equal share of my daughter's college expenses (we
    divide them three ways--hers, his, and my share--by mutual agreement
    rather than by decree).  But this year he's decided he can't afford his
    share.  Seems that he and his new wife both have decided at the same
    time that they need to further their own educations, and there's no $$
    left to help out his daughter.  So I've been told that I can either
    pick up his share of the expenses or expect my daughter to pick it up. 
    He's washed his hands of it all.  Of course he still has use and
    occupancy of the marital home until she graduates!  8-(
    
    Sometimes parents are more childish than the children!
    Karen

I am sorry to see such a law being put on the books in Mass. This is another
example how NCP's are being forced to do something, when under normal
circumstances would not be subjected to such an undertaking. Makes you really
wonder what brain dead group managed to get such a discriminating law into
reality. If I lived in Mass., I would be out protesting such stupidity my self.

As an NCP, I have on my own and of my own free will, started a fund which will
help my child go to university if he so chooses to do so. I also expect that my
son should realize, this no free ride and I expected him to work during the
summer to pay part of his way. I contribute $100 a month to support this fund
and at a time when money already is in short supply. In another 10 years he will
be ready to go to university and there should be more than enough in the fund to
get him through fours years.

As any other normal parent, if the money is not there to support higher
education, then one should not be forced to pay. This applies to the CP and NCP
in my books.

Apparently, our 1 year old provincial government here in Ontario (NDP) are
trying to pass some legislation which will have all support orders collected by
direct wage garnishment. This means once an agreement for support has been
signed, your pay check will get hit directly, like it or not.

The whole thing is designed to prevent NCP's from reneging right from day one on
any type of support payment. It is not clear how far they plan to go to cover
other items such as education expenses etc....

Another example where the NCP is treated like a money tree, waiting to be
plucked, like it or not. It just makes me shudder to think what our brain dead
political types can get away with under such a scheme. God, it must make NCP's
open season for the pickings.

John

    I have had to delete this and re-write it for I am very upset. But I
    find that this motion is a typical move to be expected by the Peoples
    Republic of Mass. Think of it. These poor folks got ol
    Ted_drop_his_pants_drive_women_off_the_bridge Kennedy, who wants
    socialized med for all those who cannot afford it. But who is gonna pay
    for such a wounderful program? I'll give yha one goooood guess!! Its
    gonna be the folks who are working at these great jobs at places like
    Digital, Wang, IBM, etc. Just what you need, more taxen with no way to
    speak agianst these wounderful programs. Thats cause you gotta worry
    about making money, paying bills, paying child suport,
    alimony/maintence, etc etc. We folks who are paying for others who we
    don't even know? I am not bitching about welfare as a whole, but this
    is starting to break many cammels backs if some 'Tomas Foolery' thing
    goes into effect. Oh well. Back to work.............

    Hi!
    
    As this seems to be the DAD note, I was wondering if someone could
    enter more information on the organization for me.  My SO asked me
    to find out more about it; he is interested in joining such a group.
    
    Thanks!
    
    Lesa

As a CP, I don't quite see what you're all complaining about.  In N.H. there's
a similar law, it  states that both parents after divorce are responsible for
paying the costs of child's college education.  According to my lawyer, the law
was requested by colleges and universities who saw that children of divorce
typicall get no support whatsoever from NCPs who in many cases were financially
able to help support their child but chose not to do so.  

Divorce studies confirm this: even NCPs who regularly pay child support
throughout a child's growing years and are financially affluent usually refuse
to pay the one big ticket item that will make the most difference in their
child's life: college tuition.

In intact families, the parents will beg, borrow, and steal everything they can
to put a child through college.  Why should it be any different just because
you divorced?

         How can the courts ASSUME that the parents would have put the
    children through college if the family had stayed intact? Whether or not
    they were financially able to do so or not?!  Sorry, it just seems as
    though the court ASSUMES a lot of things as the norm that just ain't
    so!
    
                           ---Sue

re:                      <<< Note 157.8 by COOKIE::LBROWN >>>
                           -< another point of view >-

    Please consider the following a rebuttal and an expression of my own
    feelings... it is NOT, (repeat) NOT an attack on the author of .8
    
    tony
    
<As a CP, I don't quite see what you're all complaining about.  
    
    I am inclined to wonder if ANY custodial parent would object to any law
    which *required* the NCP to provide additional support.  On the face of
    it, (and understandably so) the very fact that you are a CP would seem
    to place you in a biased posisition on the issue, notwithstanding any
    real feelings you have about the necessity for such financial support.
    Of course the reverse is also true... most NCPs would love to see such 
    laws abolished... again, without regard as to what they really feel
    about providing such support.
    
    <In N.H. there's
<a similar law, it  states that both parents after divorce are responsible for
<paying the costs of child's college education.  
    
    I am surprized, but not much, if this is actually the case.  What
    happend to "Live Free, Die Free"!  More government is not better
    government.  What you are saying is that in New Hampshire, the STATE
    decrees that a child MUST BE SENT TO COLLEGE IF THEY WANT TO GO AND ARE
    ACCEPTED.  AND THAT THE PARENT'S MUST PAY FOR THAT EDUCATION.  
    
    I find (for whatever it's worth) that this is a patently wrong stance
    for any government to assume.  The laws of this land provide that our
    children MUST receive an education... and they tax the public at large
    to support that requirement.  Your child's basic educational needs can
    be met in virtually every public school system in America.  (some may
    disagree with this... and they may be correct... but those are largely
    local issues.  And the system does need a LOT of work.  However, it is
    there, and it does work for the most part).  If you live in New
    Hampshire, you KNOW how heavily the people there are taxed to support
    the public school system. 
    
    Now... if the STATE requires that a child MUST BE PROVIDED AN
    EDUCATION, then they should PAY  for that education by taxind EVERYONE!	
    
    Of course, such a motion would NEVER get off the ground.  My GOD!  Can
    you imagine the furor that would arise if a new (heavy) tax were to be
    levied against EVERYONE to support YOUR kid going to college!!!  
    
    <According to my lawyer, the law
<was requested by colleges and universities who saw that children of divorce
<typicall get no support whatsoever from NCPs who in many cases were financially
<able to help support their child but chose not to do so.
    
    Why am I not surprized!  Gee Whiz, govn'r... the colleges and
    universities are really looking out for our kids now!  
    
    OF COURSE they would support or sponsor such a bill!  It's money in
    THEIR pockets!  
    
    'Now, lezsee here... these folks' kids WANT to go to college... who can
    we make PAY for that.  And, then, when we get the law in place... let's
    just sorta slide the cost of going to college uphill a tad this year,
    and a bit more next year...  Lordy, by the time the kids all get thru
    college, we might be breaking even, or maybe even making a little money
    for that new gym or track, or hockey rink!'
    
<Divorce studies confirm this: even NCPs who regularly pay child support
<throughout a child's growing years and are financially affluent usually refuse
<to pay the one big ticket item that will make the most difference in their
<child's life: college tuition.
<In intact families, the parents will beg, borrow, and steal everything they can
<to put a child through college.  Why should it be any different just because
<you divorced?
    
    Gee.  Divorce is tough!  I'm sorry if this sounds terrible to you...
    but, where in your marriage agreement did it say you HAD TO PAY FOR
    YOUR KIDS COLLEGE EDUCATION?  Who made that rule?  Is that something
    YOU want, or is it something your EX wants?  Are you saying that these
    NCP folks are scum because they don't feel like they should HAVE to pay
    anywhere from a few hundreds per year to tens of thousands per year for
    their little darlings to attend college?
    
    I gotta tell you I positively FLAME over this topic!  Why is that?  Why
    is it such a hot button for me... and other parents like me?  It's
    because going to college is such a HYPE!  Sure, continuing your
    education is a worthwhile project.  I went to college.  I even started
    right out of high school... and I went to a prestigious school (USC,
    and TEXAS).  But, between the time I started college and finished there
    somehow happened to pass over 20 YEARS!  My kids were practically in
    college themselves by the time I graduated myself.  
    
    I have six kids... no way on earth I could or even WOULD pay for them
    all to attend even a state school.  But, they are ALL GOING TO COLLEGE. 
    They worked hard and are working hard themselves... and they are
    EARNING it themselves.  ANd it will mean a hell of a lot more to them
    for having earned it themselves.  I even have a daughter in medical
    school... but, dammit she did it herself!  And I am so damn proud of
    her for that!  
    
    The alternative... you GIVE your kid a degree, and unless he or she is
    becomes a lawyer or a doctor, the chances are that they won't even work
    in a career that's even remotely related to what they studied in
    college. 
    
    Come off it, folks.  YOU DON'T OWE YOUR KIDS!  Live a little for
    yourselves, TOO!  Don't abuse your kids... and love them and protect
    them, and give them the tools for life... but jeeeeez,  let them work
    for some things for themselves!  
    
    tony... who's gonna shut up now... but, isn't finished!
    
    

    

    .8 is definitely living in a dream world and being a CP I could
    understand how .8 would be biased.  My parents didn't pay for me or any
    of my sisters to go to college.  We all earned it ourselves, .10 is
    absolutely right, I value my education a lot more for having earned it. 
    I am also a CP, the ex gives me nothing and I don't really care if she
    ever does.  I will not just sign checks to send my daughter to college
    and she better be very sure that's what she wants to do before
    embarking on that journey, but I will help her out with whatever I can
    even if it only means making sure she has a place at my home to stay
    until she gets through it.
    
    I have a friend who's parents sent him to Notre Dame high school and
    then to Notre Dame University back in the days went kids went to
    college to avoid Vietnam.  What's he doing now you ask?  He's humping
    rocks for a mason for a net gain of $6.00/hour.  If he hadn't gone to
    college he would probably be the mason now because he always liked that
    kind of work.  Mind you this is 18 years after college graduation on
    the honor roll.  This is a good case where the parents wanted him to be
    one thing and he wanted to be something else.  He could've avoided the
    draft by going to some cheap local school.
    
    All parents do not beg, borrow or steal to send their kids to college.
    
    
    
    @#$@$^##$%#$L@
    

		If it is felt that parents OWE their children a college
	education then lets say that. ALL parents must be responsible
	for some or all of the college expenses of their children within
	some guidelines. Why must divorced parents be legally more
	responsible than non-divorced, are non-divorced children less
	deserving??? It's a law to control and punish divorced NCP's
	and benefit the Universities, otherwise there is no earthly reason
	to restrict the law to divorced people (except it would never
	fly- you can only pass big brother laws against weak groups).

    This type type of "support" is also worming its way into Colorado.
    What most CP's don't realize is that this law also REQUIRES the *CP*
    to pay for their kid's college.  Parents who are still married are
    not *required* to pay for their kid's college.  THIS IS BLATANT
    DISCRIMINATION AGAINST DIVORCED PARENTS.
    
    fred();

re: .8

As a CP you are certainly not looking at this issue from the right perspective.
As most married couples, we all try our best to provide for our children as **WE
CAN AFFORD TOO**. No court in this land forces a married couple to pay for their
children's education that I am aware of. Frankly, it's none of the #$@^$%@ court's
business if we send our child to university at our expense. We do what we can
afford as parents.

As a NCP, I resent being forced to shell out when married couples are not.
NCP's seem to be this endless money pit or so it seems by the legal system which
sticks it's nose into something it should not. When ever there is something that
requires $$$, the NCP gets the sucked dry even more.

I for one, have a fund setup to make sure there are dollars available so my son
can go to university if he so chooses. I also expect that he should contribute
to his education by working summers and my ex should contribute too.

I am sorry my friend, you try wearing the other shoe as an NCP, pay child
support and other related expenses. Then see if YOU can afford to pay rent or
a mortgage, or start a new life and family. It has been nearly two years, I am
stilling living on the goodness of my family because I am unable to do so on my
own. Having every other week visitations are not free either my friend, this
too has a price tag as a NCP.

Don't get me wrong, money is not issue here. My son means more to me than
dollars and cents, it's just one gets very tired of being treated by the
@$#^%@^%$ legal system as a bottomless money pit.

	RE: .8

	I am a former NCP (now temp CP) in NH. My ex tried to get the 
	court to order me to "pay in full" for my son's college education.
	This was 89'-90', and NO MENTION was made by her lawyer, my lawyer
	or the GAL about any law that required the NCP to foot the bill.
	The DID NOT order it.

	I fully agree with those who say that the NCP should not be 
	required to do anything that a happily married parent is not required
	to do.


	Richard

    
    	Dads Against Divorce will hold a working meeting to draft a 
    	legislative agenda on October 3, 1991 at St John's Gym,
    	Union and Chestnut Streets, Clinton, Mass. at 7pm.
    
    	All divorced men, fathers, women, mothers and concerned others
    	are invited to attend. We particularly wish to attract people
    	who are willing to commit to semi-regular meetings to serve as a 
    	permanent steering committee. 
    
    			DADS AGAINST DIVORCE
    			P.O BOX 914
    			Sterling, Mass 01564
    
    	

    	I am for less government involvement in all aspects of life.
    	I resent having to air my dirty laundry in this public forum.
    	The fact that I would/would not aid in my daughter's tuition is of
    	no business to anyone. There are many out there reading this who
    	put themselves thru college, there are likewise some out there
    	that their fathers did pay the entire amount, and some in the
    	middle. If they did pay, you most likely came from a 'whole'
    	family where some  of the family's 'excess' funds were
    	put away for a rainy day... college... investments...
    	Myself I joined the service during Vietnam, did my time, 
    	went half-way thru college nights and dropped out, ( partly because
    	of alimony/child support orders.) I never considered asking my father,
    	he struggled all his life, jeez he did owe me anything,
        My daughter has reached adulthood in all 'legal' aspects of adult life,
    	I was 18 when I took responsibility for her, she can do likewise.
    
    	In many divorced NCP cases a substantial amount of the income 
    	goes straight out the door... never to be seen again....none left
    	Every day is a rainy day for the NCP, There a plenty out there
    	sleeping in their cars for the 1st years... when/if they
    	finally get out of their cars and into tent the courts 
    	come back and take the stakes.
    
    	These laws are clearly discriminatory, why haven't they been
    	challenged?? It's because we are not ORGANIZED. DAD's or some
    	other group must emerge to champion our causes or we're doomed
    	to bitch amongst ourselves forever.
    	What I want the most in all the world is for the Peoples Republic
    	of Massachusetts to get the fuck out of my life.
    	
	Well I've said more than I should have.... but they say it
    	helps when you talk out your anger and frustration.
    
    	It's done.    	

    Gotta Great Idea!!!! If WE all agree that the child should go to
    college, we should agree that the child should apply for scholar ships,
    and that *BOTH* sides should put up AN EQUAL SHARE! Or That BOTH camps
    should start putting away an EQUAL AMOUNT of money. Vs this one way
    street of the NCP picks up all the tabs for all the above. 
    
    I am one of those people who didn't have jack to pee in and pumped gas,
    flipped burgers, framed houses to go through college. I am not saying
    it was/is the best way for a child to get a college education. I think
    that there are other things for them to worry about. Study! Study! and
    passing exams.
    
    Being a CP, I will be working on something for OUR daughter. I am shure
    because of the sexist, bias court systems, that the NCP mother will get
    off the hook by playing poverty games as she is off on a vacation,
    buying a new car,etc etc.

    
    Hello,
    
    One thing has always bothered me about the DADs organization. It
    has only been on rare occasions that the organization seems to 
    have ALL of their facts straight. Remember the insurance companies
    will consider a college student a 'minor' and let the student remain
    on the insurance policy to the age of 23. Also the NCP can also be a 
    woman, the law probably does not clearly state "this only applies to 
    MALE NCP", but then you are very vague about the law.
    
    
    You said the law states you only continue to pay child support, well
    unless your support payment is more than $800 per month per child 
    you will not be paying what I have paid for my sons college. He did
    work 2 and 3 works for spending money and books. My EX did continue 
    the support payment as agreed in the divorce decree, that amount is 
    $100 per month. The school is not Harvard by a LONG shot, he graduates 
    in May...... it will be wonderful to have money for me for a change.
    
    Joan
    

    My lawyer sent me the law.  He said it goes into effect Nov. 8, '91.                     
    
    FAMILY LAW-CHILD SUPPORT-UNDERGRADUATE STUDENTS
    
    CHAPTER 173
    
    An ACT relative to the support of children.
    
    Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives in
    General Court assembled, and by the authority of the same,
    as follows:
    
    SECTION 1. Section 28 of chapter 208 of the General Laws, as
    appearing in the 1990 Official Edition, is hereby amended by inserting
    after the third sentence the following sentence:- The court may
    make appropriate orders of maintenance, support and education
    for any child who has attained age twenty-one but who has not
    attained age twenty-three, if such child is domiciled in the
    home of a parent, and is principally dependent upon said parent
    for maintenance due to the enrollment of such child in an 
    educational program, excluding educational costs beyond an
    undergraduate degree.  
    
    SECTION 2. Section 37 of chapter 209 of the General Laws, as so
    appearing, is hereby amended by inserting after the second
    sentence the following sentence:- The court may make appropriate
    orders of maintenance, support and education for any child who
    has attained age twenty-one but who has not attained age
    twenty-three if such child is domiciled in the home of a parent,
    and is principally dependent upon said parent for maintenance
    due to the enrollment of such child in an educational program,
    excluding educational costs beyond an undergraduate degree.
    
    Approved August 8, 1991

    
    Thanks for showing the exact law. Personally I do not see the wording 
    as being that big of a deal (ESPECIALLY THE WORD -- MAY), but then I 
    finally see a light at the end of the tunnel that has taken many a 
    year to get there. My son was 3 when I divorced and he now 21.
    
    Joan
    

    
    	DAD's will hold regularly scheduled meetings the 1st Thursday
    	of each month starting Nov 7, 1991 
    
    		St John's Gym
    		Union Street & Chestnut (RT 62)
    		Clinton, Mass
    		  7 - 9 pm
    
    	DAD's has joined the C.U.R.E. group
    
                    C.U.R.E
    	Coalition United for Rights Enforcement.
         Cure Media Contacts & Information : Eastern Mass. 617/899-1944
                                             Western Mass. 413/736-5697
    
    	Citizens for Divorce Reform             Concerned Fathers
         P.O Box 620393                         P.O Box 2768
         Newton, Mass 02161                     Springfield, Mass 01101
         617/237-7074				Springfield 413/736-7432
                                                Springfield 413/736-5697
                                                Boston 617/455-8810
                                             
    	FERICS Laws
    	(Fair and Equal Responsibilities in Child Support Laws)
    	P.O. Box 269
    	738 Main Street
    	Waltham, Ma 02254
    	617/899-1944 ( between 5-7 )
    
    	Citizens fo Legal Reform             D.A.D. Dads Against Divorce
    	11 Cottage Road                      P.O. Box 914
    	Westborough Mass, 01581              Sterling Mass. 01564
    	508/366-2837                         508/422-6774