Conference quokka::non_custodial_parents

    John, it sounds to me like your son is trying desperately to develop a
    relationship with someone he really likes, and she's pushing him off. 
    I doubt very much that he's singling her out for books and board games
    etc. in an attempt to harrass her.  He wants to be friends with her,
    and trying to share the important things in his life is his way of
    showing her that.  The problem is that she's not receptive to this
    attention.
    
    You comment that your son says he likes your girl friend better than
    his mother.  That could be an attempt to win you both over with his
    love (remember school yard games of "I like you better than any of my
    other friends.  You're my bestest friend ever"?).  How does he get
    along with his mother?  Is their relationship warm and nurturing for
    him?  Or is he perhaps looking for a "mother's" warmth and love?
    
    Without knowing more about the other's in your son's support system
    (like are there other sources for a close relationship with a loving
    mother figure), it's hard for me to offer advice.  Instead I'm offering
    a caution that, based on your description, I see a lonely child
    reaching out.  If your girl friend can't/won't be responsive to that
    reaching, can you ensure that your son's needs are met through some
    other avenue?  The answer to that question may determine what you do in
    regard to your girl friend and her response to the situation.
    
    Best wishes to all of you!
    Karen 
       

       I agree with -1 ...

       My son has always been a real "in the middle of the group" kid. 
       From the time he was a baby, he has always wanted to be part of
       what ever was going on, not off by himself.  When he is not doing
       something with me he wants to be doing something with someone
       else.

       Is it possible that your son doesn't get to spend much time
       talking or playing board games with his mother?  It could be that
       he sees your girl friend as a chance to get attention from an
       adult woman?

       I couldn't tell from your note, but does your girl friend feel
       that she is "stealing" your time with your son?  Does she prefer
       not to spend a lot of time with children in general?  From her
       perspective, why is the time that your son spends with her a
       problem?  Is part of the problem, the roller coaster effect of,
       no child one day, and then a child at your heels every second on
       the next day?
       
       
       Richard

    Oh gosh, what I see here is potential trouble with a capital T.
    
    If your SO is serious about a reltionship with you, then your son must
    be considered as a real part of you.  In the long term, if she is going
    to stay in this with you, she will need to find ways to cope (the
    alternative is to get out of the relationship).  If she is really a
    part of your life, then her presence DOES NOT detract from the quality
    of the time you spend with your son, her presence enhances it.
    
    Let me speak, just for a moment, from my own perspective.  My wife and I
    are living apart because she cannot live with me AND my daughter(s). 
    She claims that this is so my daughter Jenni and I can have time to
    work on our relationship etc.  The truth is, she does not want to
    participate in that part of my life.
    
    I dunno, something exturbed me and I lost my train of thought (that
    assumes that I have enough brains left to think with 8-}  ).
    
    Good luck
    jimc
      

re: .1,

His mother tends to be out in another world and seems to have him farmed out to
day camps, grandma's or what ever. She tends to be out working a great deal of
the time and never seems to be home until some time later in the evening. Her
live in seems to do about the same, like a matched set you might say. When we
were together, I biggest complaint to her was 'your never damn well home, it was
either work or off with your friends'. Needless to say, my son and I spent a
great deal of time alone.

I feel she spends far too much time off doing other things than being home at a
reasonable amount of time. I don't know how she spends her time with when she is
around, but can comment on when I was there. We both would read to him or play
games when she was around. Saturday's was usually my son and I because she was
off to aerobics or shopping. Around 10am it was I am going out for a couple
hours, but it was more like 4-5pm before she would turn up again.

I suspect not much has changed here.

re: .2

I guess the above explains some of it.

After another long winded discussion with my girl friend, it would seem she
resents having to be with him because she feels she is doing my ex a favor. She
feels it more like baby sitting. Since her niece has been around for the past
week, I am seeing the same sort of stuff towards her niece. I am beginning to
think she just can't tolerate children and all these excuses are just some way
to justify the who mess. If the truth was to be known, I would say she would
rather do without kids.

re: .3

I tend to agree with your second paragraph, I see it very much the same way.

   When chooses a significant other, one chooses to have a relationship with
   that person and accepts the risks, joys, and heartaches by default.  

   When that significant other also has children, the situation is more
   complicated.  It's all well and good to know that the children are a
   significant part of that person's life, but that fact does not eliminate
   the concept of yet another choice of having a relationship with the
   child.  

   Specifically, she can accept you, your son, and your relationship with
   your son.  But she has to actively choose to have a relationship with
   your son.  That is another thing altogether.  So far, she is choosing to
   have a relationship with you and accept your relationship with her son. 
   She has some feelings/experiences/context around developing a
   relationship with your son.  She may indeed feel that she is "stealing"
   your time with him, she may resent your ex for not spending her allotted
   time with him, but my guess is that these are secondary issues.  Her real
   issue may be one of attachment to your son.  There are a lot of risks in
   any relationship, but this kind of relationship carries its own special
   risks.  What if she becomes attached to your son and then you two break
   up?  What if you become jealous of her relationship with your son?  What
   are your son's expectations of her?  What would be her expectations of
   him?  What would your expectations of him and her with respect to
   yourself be?  What have her previous family experiences been like?  What
   if she goofs?  How will you react if she's too harsh/lenient/whatever? 
   What are the boundaries/expectations?  And so on. 

   These are not easy questions to consider.  So far, your son is choosing
   to pursue the relationship.  She is avoiding it.  Where do you stand with
   this?


   							Terza

Just an extra few tidbits, my ex does not work extra hours because she needs the
money unless her new live in and her are spending huge amounts on something. I
know they have dump money into landscaping and renovations and he apparently is
not hurting dollar wise (bundle in the bank) and owns another property. So what
is she doing with all her time?

Anyway, I had another discussion with my girl friend over this problem. As I
mentioned in the previous response, her niece is around for a couple of weeks. I
am seeing the same signs that she is not tolerating normal child hood
activities that her own niece is exhibiting. When I point that out I get well
that's different because she's only here for a couple weeks once a year and my
son is here two weekends a month on going.

She seems to tie this back to my ex and feels by having him every other weekend
she is only doing my ex a favor and it is like baby sitting. By the way she knew
my ex at one time down the road and does not like her at all. Apparently they
had a major falling out over something I just didn't want to get into. I thought
maybe this was maybe behind all this but, I see similar tolerance levels with
her own niece. So, is it just, I don't like children period?

The whole thing really didn't go anywhere other than give her some choices.

1) We work this out and continue living togther.

2) I live someplace else and see her when my son is not with me.

3) Nice knowing you and off onto my next adventure ensuring I don't get my self
into a similar relationship.  Possible maintain a no strings friendship (ie.
just like any friend one might have).

She ask what I am more inclined to want to do, but refused to specify, saying I
have my own ideas, but let's start with yours first. I just want to see how
committed she is in working things out. In my mind 2 is OK for the short term,
but would want something with a bit more substance. 1 seems like an impossible
choice since I don't see her accepting a willing role in sharing both my son and
I as a package deal. 3 is most likely where it will end up going because I want
more than just a part time partner.

Well, we shall see what happens here. It's ashame that everything else is just
great except this problem. Unfortunately, my son is important to me, so you know
who will loose out, when push comes to shove.

John

P.S. re: .2, No my girl firend does not feel she is stealing away my time with
my son. I believe it is more that she just doesn't like children around. I still
get the story that things would be different if he was with us full time or she
had her own. I find that a bit hard to believe this would change things.

<   Specifically, she can accept you, your son, and your relationship with
<   your son.  But she has to actively choose to have a relationship with
<   your son.  That is another thing altogether.  So far, she is choosing to
<   have a relationship with you and accept your relationship with her son. 
<   She has some feelings/experiences/context around developing a
<   relationship with your son.  She may indeed feel that she is "stealing"
<   your time with him, she may resent your ex for not spending her allotted
<   time with him, but my guess is that these are secondary issues.  Her real
<   issue may be one of attachment to your son.  There are a lot of risks in
<   any relationship, but this kind of relationship carries its own special
<   risks.  What if she becomes attached to your son and then you two break
<   up?  What if you become jealous of her relationship with your son?  What
<   are your son's expectations of her?  What would be her expectations of
<   him?  What would your expectations of him and her with respect to
<   yourself be?  What have her previous family experiences been like?  What
<   if she goofs?  How will you react if she's too harsh/lenient/whatever? 
<   What are the boundaries/expectations?  And so on. 

Lot's of questions with not so easy answers.  She does not feel she is stealing
my time, she hates my ex because of a fall out in the past. Attachment to my
son/break up does not seem to be an issue or concern. I am not the jealous type
and would encourage a three way relationship. I am not sure what expectations my
son has with respect to her.
                                                                            
Her expectations are to be left in the back ground which conflicts with mine
which are no different than if he was our very own child.            

What if she goofs, we all make mistakes and live and learn. I have explained I
am no expert when it come to raising a child. We live, learn and experience and
try different things to over come problems with children while they grow. I
think she's a natural and I have told her so. When they do interact, I truely
believe she does a better job at it than I do, what more can I say.


<   These are not easy questions to consider.  So far, your son is choosing
<   to pursue the relationship.  She is avoiding it.  Where do you stand with
<   this?

 I look at it this way, my son and I are a package deal. I see him every other
weekend and will continue to do so as long as my son wants too. I am also
sensative to my SO, but when the chips are down, something must give. This is
not easy and there are no magical solutions, only time will tell.

I am not sure what else can be done other than, we talk, talk, talk and hope we
can work the problem to a solution.

John

    re .6
    
    I've been there and I've opted for door 3.
    
    Kid #1, girlfriend #2.  IMO it's just a matter of time before this
    thing becomes a big ugly pimple.
    
    

I've been in a relationship for two years now where my boyfriend has
full custody of two beautiful children, an 11 year old girl and a 9
year old boy.  When we first started see each other, I questioned whether
or not I wanted to be involved with him for this reason.  I didn't know
if I could handle it.  I was not only taking on a new relationship but an 
already-made family as well.  It was a package deal.  I knew I couldn't
possibly have just one without the other.

I will admit it...it was tough!!!  A whole lot of getting used to.  Those
kids turned to me just like your son is turning to your girlfriend.  I know
if I had rejected or turned away from them, our relationship would have
ended without a doubt!  

I don't know how you can continue a relationship with your girlfriend
if she is not willing to change her attitude.  Regardless of her feelings
towards your ex and the fact that she feels she is babysitting for your 
ex.  Sounds to me like an excuse for her actions.  She needs to let go of 
those feelings and realize what she is doing to your's son mind!

Here your son is reaching out to your girlfriend for something that is lacking 
in his life.  He wants to have some attention and love from her.   She is not
capable or rather, is not willing to develop a relationship with him.  Will she
ever?  Probably not.

IMO, I see Option 3...

Good luck with whatever you decide.

Paula
    

    If we was a votin', Ah'd vote #3.
    
    That is where my life is going and I have been married for 7 years.
    It will not get better, I promise you, unless she decides she is in for
    the whole ball of wax and can accept your son's presence.  Otherwise,
    she will always be unhappy, you will always be torn and eventually the
    subsurface anger and strife will destroy your relationship anyway.
    
    I wish I didn't feel so negative, but, trust me, I am living through
    just such long term kaka, even as I WRITE.  Take #3 unless she is truly
    willing to go whole hog on the deal.  If she truly does not care for
    children (as is the case with my wife) don't waste time trying.  Nobody
    will be happy.
    
    Sorry 8-{
    jimc

First off thanks for your input and comments. It sure does make things a bit
easier to mull and work through. I shall let you know how things work out and
what happens. I do expect that this whole thing will end as option 3 unless a
change of focus happens.

John 

    John, one more voice in the wilderness -
    
    I had a girlfriend just as you describe - only her motivation was that
    she didn't want to form too strong a bond in case the relationship
    should end. I use "had" since we broke up and have made up over the
    last 4+ years.
    
    She has grown to like my 3 kids (dare I say love?) and while never a
    tolerent person - I'm glad door 3 didn't remain permanent.
    
    Bruce Grayson

    	I agree, communication is so important and patience.  I wrote the
    note after this one but deleted the base note and replies because it
    didn't feel right.  Since I have started to become very close to my
    girlfriend again.  Because of my baggage and what she HAD TO accept it
    has made it tough on her and me.  She hasn't decided to accept it yet
    but is still in a cloud.  But what she did find is maybe what your girl
    will find.  That is once she left and went out with others she got a
    dose of REALITY which has somewhat softened her attitude toward what
    she would have to accept.  Her indecision now is based on whether or
    not I can adjust enough to give her what she needs and can she give me
    what I need.  Like the last reply who waited 4+ years, I am willing to
    wait (maybe not that long) for something I believe will work out.
    
    						George

Well, I have decided the best way to handle this for now is to continue to
understand where she is coming from and what is the real problem. Over the next
five months, we will try to work something out and if not, I will get my own
place and we shall keep things at a friendship level from that point.

We been together for almost two years, so, what's another 5 months?

John

    John,
    
    	Best thing to do is keep it professional. Do not get personal. You
    could get suckered into something that you might regret to have done
    out of good faith and good will.

George,

If your worried about sacrificing or comprimising my visitations for the sake of
keeping a relationship together, not a chance. She is aware that I will not give
up or comprimise my rights to access. We are both, two reasonable, intelligent
living beings, we can learn to work things out. If not, we both realize what
direction things will take come January.

I agree that personal feelings can cause problems here, but think that we both
know what is at stake here and what options there are. It may prove to be a
worth while risk, then again it may not depending what happens.

Time will tell......

John

Just to change the subject for a moment, but not to muddy the waters, I need
your opinion on another issue.

On my next scheduled visitation, I have an annual work function to attend on a
Friday night. I normally pick up my son on the Friday between 5pm and 6pm.

I tried to arrange a sitter or something fo rthe Friday night for him, but have
been unable too. As a last resort, I asked my EX about picking him up on the
Saturday at 8 or 9am. She flatly refused to accomodate this request after I have
on 2 or 3 occassions have accomodated her. Apparently from our conversation, she
has no plans that night and is bitter about me trying to have access arrangments
put into legal form which prevents her from dening me access (she has this thing
about being in control). My response to her was that I am no longer willing to
discuss the access arrangments with her, so talk to your own lawyer. You have
our last offer before we go to court. She finished up by saying if I did not
pick him on Friday, forget about for this weekend.

So, what in your opinion should I do,

1) Pick him up as scheduled and forget the annual function?

2) Tell her, I will be by Saturday at 9am to pick him up, like it or not?

3) Not pick him up at all?


What do you think?

John

3)

    re .17
    Door #2.  Then Document the incident if she refuses to give up your
    son and take it into coure when you go as one more example of why
    you need specified arrangements.  Pay careful attention to your son's
    recaction to not getting to see you if this is what she pulls.  
    Make note in court that she is violating your son's right to see
    you as well as your right to see your son simply to satisfy her
    own hatred of you.
    fred();

    I second door #2. And take a friend along with you to help document it.
    If you got a simple 35MM cammera to help the show along fine and
    dandy!:) If you think that door #2 is tuff. Then go door #1 this time.
    But I feel that door #2 is best for it will show that there should be
    alittle give and take in a relationship. Other wise my friend, your
    response to me about being two inteligent adults is another oximoron.:)
    
    Gee, can you take your children to this annual event? That always makes 
    them happy. I try to do it as often as possible. That way Eva gets to
    see and be a part of my life beyond the normal parental stuff. 
    
    Off the subject, she asked me who made her Winnie the Poo Bear? She is
    three and I thought I would have fun with this and told her some elves
    named Sears and Robuck made the bear.:) 

Hi,

Because of the timing of the event that I noted in [.17], before reading your
replies, I had decided on door #2 also. Since I cannot take my son to this event
and want to go, option two was the best way to go and have him for the bulk of
the weekend.

It is funny, on one breath my EX is annoyed about me having the access
arrangements put into black and white, and yet in another is trying to use them
to support her reason to deny me access on the Saturday. I made it very clear to
her that the existing terms are in effect and until she signs the new legal
document, I am within my rights to pick him up on the Saturday at 9am. Mind you,
under the new expanded black and white terms, since proper notice was given, she
would still be unable to deny my access. The only difference under either
scenario is the new terms state that it must be provided in writing while the
existing term do not require this. I thought the written notice was a good idea
since it provides the paper audit trail so to speak of requests and denials. 

For informational purposes, in my other note dealing with these issues, I will
eventually post the two existing paragraphs in effect today and the revised
signed terms and conditions. If the latter gets signed to come into effect, it
will be a major victory for me as an NCP. Out of all the other crap, this will
be the most important piece of legal work to me, while my ex is more concerned
about material possessions. I guess we all have our different priorties in life.

On Monday, I will let you know how the Saturday pickup went. Thanks for your
input.


John

   John,

   Having just read the last ten replies or so, I wish you luck with both
   your decisions with your girlfriend and your ex.  It stinks how an
   adult's agenda runs roughshod over what's best for the child.


   							Terza

    John,
    
    	Are you crimping your ex's weekend plans? As in would you be
    preventing her from traveling some distance this weekend? If that is
    alittle tidbit you might not have mentioned. Then door #1. But if your
    smart, did you follow up your phone calls with a written letter cc'ed
    to the GAL, both attornies? And give "GOOD" reason why?? 
    
    George

re: .22,

As for her weekend plans, that was the first thing I asked before inquiring about
picking him up on the Saturday. As I had mentioned in a previous note, she was
not doing anything that night. During our conversation, at no time did she
mention she had other plans or commitments. She also mentioned nothing about the
Saturday.

As for a written note, I have prepared one for the Saturday in the event she
continues to refuse the access. It clearly states the who, what, when and where
and identifies the clauses in the separation agreement that I am within my
rights. It also states a complaint will be filed with my lawyer and the Support
and Custody Enforcement agency along with other supporting past documented
occurrences.

John

Hi,

Just to let you know what happened when I arrived Saturday to pick up my son
David.

I knocked on the front door about three times and got no answer. In the
background I could here a radio playing and no activity looking through the
window of the door. I noticed grandma & grandpa were home, so went over there
to see if they went over there (they live two doors down from where her SO's
cottage is). Grandma & grandpa were there with David and asked if my ex was
there. Grandma said that she just spoke with her so she should be at the
cottage. Anyway, grandma started to pack up his stuff for David to come with
me. I mentioned to grandma that I cannot take him without my ex's permission to
do so, since she refused before. So I said I would be right back as I was going
back to the cottage.

On the way, I ran into my ex. I spoke first saying that I was here to pick up
David. She replied 'I told you on Thursday that you could not have him if you
did not pick him up on the Friday'. I said that was not good enough since she
did not indicate she had other plans for the Friday or Saturday and also grandma
said David was with her for the night. So I fail to see your problem here, which
she just mentioned again I could not take him. I asked my ex twice are you sure,
' So your telling me you are refusing me access to David?'. Both times she
replied yes. So I said hang on second, I have something then for you in the car
in anticipation you would refuse.

I retrieved from the car the letter I had put together which covered the
following; By receipt of this letter, you have refused my right to access to
David. It then quoted the the section and two subsections which she was in
violation from our separation agreement. Another quote included a section
from the 'Children's Law Reform Act (Ontario)' which stated she could not
prevent me from exercising my right to access when I am scheduled to do so
within the defined window.

It went on to quote various statements she made to me on the phone previously
about the weekend and her refusal to allow me access on the Saturday. It also
covered off the scheduled window of access and normal patterns over the past
months. I mentioned the three or so times I have accommodated her requests 
around access and expect the same courtesy in return. I also mention that I have
been keeping a log file for some time with all events around phone access and
physical access which clear show a pattern for denied access by phone and
direct access.

It summed up by telling her, a copy of this letter and the log file will be given to
my lawyer to have the access enforced on Monday. She was speechless and the
expression on her face seemed pretty blank. I think you might say she was caught
off guard and never expected that I would take such a stand against her.

I started to walk back to grandma's, which she ask where I was going. I replied
that I am going to say goodbye to David since you have refused me the access and
I cannot take him unless you say so. My ex ran back to her place (to call
grandma) while I went back to grandma to say goodbye to David. I had no sooner
explained to grandma and David that I must go now and cannot take David with me
because my ex has refused. At that time my ex phoned grandma, I am not sure what
happened on the phone, but grandma came back an said that she changed her mind
and you can have him for the weekend now. Grandma also stated she did not want
to get into the middle of all this, but was only doing what was in David's best
interest even if the ex is now ticked off at her. Grandma packed his bag and off
we went.

The weekend was great and even my SO had the best time ever as a three some (is
there maybe a hidden message here).

On the return trip, my ex was not to be seen anywhere, only her new SO and
grandma. I dropped David off and spoke with grandma for a second and left.

So today, a copy of the letter and log file where FAX'd to my lawyer with a note
explaining what has happened over the weekend. We now have the fuel we need to
get the clear and specific access arrangements we are asking for. It will be
difficult for my ex to dispute the need for these access arrangements which is
will be in the form of a court order.

John

    Good work!!!
    fred();

    Welllllllllllll!!!! Allllllll Riiiiight!!!!! ATTA-WAY!!!:) Best said is
    what you did! GREAT! Keep it up!:)

I feel good about the way it worked out, but still one step and more to come. My
son tells me his mother drops him off with his two step brothers at the library
and goes shopping. David is 7 in November, the other two are 10 & 12 years old.
Clearly no one is old enough to be a legal baby sitter here, which I believe in my
neck of the woods is minimum 14 years old.

Looks like another observe and document mission with witnesses. Apparently since
grandma has been home from Florida this hasn't happened lately. I expect come
the fall, this will start again, so will watch out for this.

John