Conference quokka::non_custodial_parents

    .1 Where do you live on planet earth? Sounds like your out of country.
    If so it becomes much more difficult to MANNAGE your attorney. The fun
    part is that the man is too easily intimidated by the ex's attorney. If
    your out of country there are fun things to do with this Bull Fethers,
    esp if she is not letting you know where she lives! Second, I bet you
    do not have all of your paperwork in files. As in the SO needs to keep
    ALL letters bills etc in a loose leaf three ring binder. You would be
    surprised at how this can trip up the opposing camp and their attorney.
    Attornies have a real bad habbit of over booking them selves to the
    point that they do not know whats going on in the case until they read
    the briefs on the way into the court room. By keeping all of the papers
    in order you can walk in with or without an attorney and defend
    yourself or kick butt for you can refresh their mindless minds with the
    correct papers! And they are playing on that too! 
    
    	There exist a basic problem when you are married to a man who is
    divorced and has this sort of obligation. It is not his or her fault it
    is the system that we all suport. The way to correct this is to fight
    it hook line and sinker. Best advice for this is to find a good suport
    group as in a father rights group and learn from them. Many are not
    lawyers, but know the ropes to keep you in the slot of doing the right
    things to make your case work for you. Remember if you can keep track
    of pro-ball sports players and stats that go with them learning the
    ropes and the movers and shakers of the divorce game is second nature.
    And remember most of all, is that if we do not reform the system, the
    system will reform us! And that may not be a pleant thought.
    
    George

    It is my opinion that the court will work to enforce the decree unles
    you have a unique approach that shows the original decree/agreement is
    faulty in some way.  A visitation schedule based on living 25 miles
    apart is no nolnger reasonaqble if you now live on different coasts.
    
    I have found that the best way to control any issuse with my ex is to
    assume that I am in charge and just do what is best for me and the
    children.  If they are under 10 go back to court if they are older 
    I would let them (the children) make the decision.   If they wanted to
    stay they would just stay if they wanbted to go back home sooner then
    they would go.
    
    As far as tax forms goes legally you are married to your husband and
    the law looks at it as you have married his obligations.  The best way
    ti handle this situstion is to just not provide the tax forms and let
    her take you back to court and negotiate a privacy agreement so that
    only the lawyers see the taxes and then they are held accountable for
    dealing with the indiviual earnings and not the family incomes.  I
    presume that the tax form swharing is do to the need to reset child
    support agreements on a yearly basis.  This being the case this is
    about the best you can get.  Generally after a while the ex get tired
    of going to court asnd spending more than they can get in annual
    increases due to tax forms.
    The final piece of my humble opinion is overtime learn to divest
    yourself from any issue that can yank your chain.  AS long as you let
    yourself be yanked around you will be.  Do not let the ex use the
    children as a weapon.  The children know who you are and the will love
    you in spite of the games played by the ex.  Talk straight to your
    children if they are old enough  8 or9 and let the "fleas" crawl on the
    dog that owns them.  Don't allow yourself to be bothered by the 
    B.S. that comes from the ex.  Remove yourself if you have to.  Remember
    you and your husband deserve a life of happioness just like his ex.  If
    you love yourself her manipulation of the children will backfire on her
    and you will have saved all the emotional capital along the way
    
    Excuse me for rambling but I have been there and won by using the time
    heals all method and lving for myself.
    

    Holy Moly Terza, 
    This is just deja vue for me (though I would rather it was "vue ja de"=
    the feeling that none of this has ever happened before 8->  ).  
    
    In my case we sued for extended visitation (due to living further apart
    than when the divorce occurred), telephone contact, and an alternate to
    providing the full tax document since I was remarried and the support
    was variable based on income.
    
    We never got into court (but almost).  I got extended, CLEARLY defined
    visitations (the clarity included having her take them to the airport
    and put them on a plane if I paid the tickets.  Previously I had been
    forced to drive 500 miles to pick them up and drop them off because she
    would not put them on the plane), telephone calls (and this was a cute
    one, she insisted that I not get her unlisted number, so she agreed to
    have them call me every Wednesday evening.  She was such a cheap-skate
    8-0, that she made the calls collect.  So, after about 3 weeks when the
    calls stopped, I got my phone bill, which gave me her phone number and
    started calling them myself 8->  ), and during the negotiations, she
    demanded a fixed support (instead of basing it on my income, can you
    say "I'm laughing all the way to the bank?" (my income more than
    doubled over the last 8 years).  So all-in-all, it worked out pretty
    good for me.  
    
    You've seen some of the other notes I've posted, so you know how things
    are turning out.  I second .2s suggestion about the tax returns.  Make
    her sue for them if she doesn't want to negotiate.
    
    Good luck 
    jimc

   Hi Jimc,

   The basenote was from a noter who wished to remain anonymous, not me.

   Thanks, though!


   							Terza
   						(with moderator hat on!)

   This reply is from the author of the basenote, who wishes to remain
   anonymous.


   							Terza

===============================================================================
Thanks for your comments.  Especially about letting the ex sue for tax
stuff.  It is our intent to support the children who are still pretty
young, and not to short change them in any way, but I don't even share 
financial information with close friends for the most part, and don't feel 
at all comfortable sharing it with hostile people.  I have never been 
involved in any type of litigation and this is my first (and only :-) )
marriage so I'm not very familiar with divorce on a first hand basis except,
for feeling some of the after-effects now. This unfamiliarity with what to 
expect from courts, what are our (and my) legal rights, etc. scares the heck 
out of me.  I am not real great with confrontation either and tend to work
hard to avoid it, though I am getting better about at dealing with it.  
Probably I am more intimidated by all this than my spouse is, although it 
makes us both anxious, and I must admit, angry too, at times.

The support group is probably a good idea for these reasons, but I think that
my spouse would need to take the initiative there.  Are there support groups
for spouses of non-custodial parents ?  That is what I really need.

We live in the US as the does the ex, but opposite coasts.  The lawyer that my
spouse had, who in my opinion didn't do very much, has gotten out of the 
divorce business after getting divorced himself.  My question, again, is could
we get an attorney who is local to us, or do we need one across the country
where the divorce took place ?

One of things in all of this, is that the divorce was handled through a 
mediator rather than in a court with a judge.  I think my spouse was thinking
at that time that this whole thing was h*ll and the faster it was over with,
the better.

We do communicate with the kids on a weely basis (always at our expense), but 
that still doesn't give a very good picture of how they are coping and doing 
as they are not really old enough to be able to articulate these things through
a phone conversation. Our main goal in these conversations is to maintain ties,
and let them know we care.  We have had to correct some things that the 
children misunderstood or were led to mis-understand about the way things are;
we have tried to simply correct their perception without being negative in 
reverse.  I do hope as they get older, they will be able to seperate truth
from fiction.  I know it is hard for them, as they want to love and be loyal
to both parents, and therefore do experience some internal conflict.  We have
tried to show, tell, and let them know, that they can continue to love both 
parents without feeling disloyal to either one.  It is hard from long-distance
though.

I keep telling myself I am not going to let these things get to me, but I
guess I still need more practice.

    To the anonymous author:  I can't answer your question about whether you 
    need a local lawyer or one "across the country,"  but I can provide some
    tips for support groups for spouses of non-custodial parents.  The best
    support groups I've encountered in the 10 years I've been divorced are
    right here in NON_CUSTODIAL_PARENTS and in a complementary conference
    for BLENDED_FAMILIES.
    
    You'll get support, answers, advice, shared experiences, things to
    watch out for, reasons for celebration, and sometimes even a kick in
    the b*tt when that's what the situation requires.
    
    So stick around for a while and see how helpful we can be!
    
    Karen
         

    Also to the anonymous author: 
    
    	If we can have a clue what state your in ( physical, not mental)
    we maybe able to tell you some of the pit falls of the state and is so
    called fair and just laws. 
    
    	Insofar as the suport groups, sometimes it helps if your SO is hand
    held to the group meetings as in find the group and tell him that the
    TWO of you are going together. Vs, well SO its YOUR business and YOUR
    problem and YOU must handle YOUR problem.  Based upon that assumption
    you are garenteed a fleecing. :)
    
    George
    good luck I know the first time I went I felt like I should not belong
    here, Got a Good lawyer, got a good job, got the house, not sleeping
    in a car. But it turns out if I had not I would be in the car without
    the job now!

    First off, you will need a lawyer in the state with jurisdiction.
    This will be the state where the children reside.
    
    Telephone communication was never very comfortable between my children
    and I despite a reasonably good relationship.  This was due in part to
    the impersonal nature of the telephone and in part to a their
    difficulty in talking about anything important while their mother was
    listening.
    
    All the telephone is good for is maintaining communications and
    reassurring them that you are still in their lives.  Boy do I know the
    desire to correct mis-perceptions.  The hard, but important, part is
    keeping these things impersonal and as positive as possible.
    
    They probably know, at some level, the truth already.  Children are
    amazingly perceptive.  Loyalty is the biggest issue in many cases, if
    both parties are not using this to manipulate the children that is
    good.  It can cause a heck of a lot of pain if used on them and, IMHO,
    will eventually backfire on the parent using it.
    
    Long-distance is hard, no doubt about that.  It will seem like
    forever, but, eventually it will get better.  Take my word for it.
    
    As for support groups, it is very important that you both get
    involved.  I vote with George, don't wait for your SO to make the
    first move, do what you can, just do it together.  Step-Families of
    America is a good organization and many have found it helpful.  Of
    course Karen is right about here being a good place for you to vent
    steam, get advice, see the issue from other points of view, and,
    occasionally, get a possibly deserved comuppance.
    
    Hugs
    jimc
    

    re .0
    
    >  My question is: has anyone had experience fighting for a longer 
    >  visitation time when the originally agreed upon time is not enough ?  
    
    Visitation and Child-support are among the easier things to get
    changed.
    
    > What are the risks of tackling such a legal fight ? 
    
    The risk is that if you go for change of visitation, you will almost
    certainly face a request for change of support at the same time.  If
    the financial circumstances have not changed, however, then the risk
    of change of support being granted is minimal.  What often happens is
    that the ncp usually ends up forking over extra $$ for an agreement
    to keep the fight out of court which will cost even more $$$.
    
    >Secondly, the divorce agreement states that they will exchange tax 
    >returns. Is this a common thing ?  
    
    This is a fairly common thing to allow both parents to request chang
    of support based on changes of inclome.  More often it is the ncp
    only that is required to make regular reports of income to the court.
    
    > My spouse's tax return is now a joint return with me.  Who would I 
    > see about representing my rights in this  matter ?  
    
    Probably the only thing you can do about this is to file a separate
    return (married filing separate), but this (in my experience) will
    cost you some in tax $$s.  Check with a lawyer.
    
    >Would we need a lawyer in the state the divorce was done in -- and
    >where the ex still lives ?  Could I get a lawyer from where I now live ?  
    
    You will need a lawyer in the state where the divorce took place unless
    their law firm has offices in both states.  (read large law firm and
    big $$$).
    
    > The divorce agreement does state that they have joint legal custody 
    > & should communicate about the children.  Does my spouse indeed have 
    > the right to discuss issues about the children with the ex ?  
    
    Yes.
    
    > Could the ex be successful in some type of order against him for 
      trying to discuss child related issues ?  
    
    If this is indeed in the court papers, and the ex is not following 
    through with this, then it is the ex who is in contempt and may be 
    subject to court action.  It appears that ex freely agreed to this 
    at the time of the divorce ( no court action I believe you said ).  
    May be tough to prove, however.
    
    fred();