Conference quokka::non_custodial_parents

    John,
    
    	Go for a ride to you court house. Go sit in the back of a couple of
    cases. Divorce cases would be the best to see. See the movers and the
    shakers of the court room. See how people present themselves. Of
    course your going to feel uncomfortable about going into a room when
    that room seems to conjor up bad thoughts. But if you go for a few
    visits without the attorney and the ex and the pressures you will find
    that you have the advantage when its game time.

    John, please read your first note  (#6)  in it you state that you are
    now having fun; well you have also startedto live again.  Please
    realize that you have no control or input into your ex's life or
    lifestyle.  Keep your children out of the situation between you and
    your wife (ex) they will accept you for who you are and over time thay
    will come to you of their own choice.  Additionally court are reluctant
    to undo each other's decisions.  If you think abuse is going on in the
    home have the guardian ad litem investigage or have one appointed to
    represent the childrens interest.  This is an expensive undertaking but
    usually the only one which you can use to win without a direct
    knowledge of the occurance of abuse.  Without reputable witnesses you
    don't stand a chance.
    
    My belief is that you would be better served if you just insist that
    the current agreement is followed to the letter of the law. and use the
    courts to your advantage.  Let them enforce the decree and you only
    deal with what is written around visitation, child support, custody
    childrens health andscholling, all the other rig-ma-role is just a
    premise on the part of your wife to keep you involved in her life.
    Don't do it.  She made her bed hard let her live in it.  Don't deal
    with her on any ground or level which appears to have any thing to do
    with something other than the childrens welfare.
    
    If she starts screaming let her, then say take that up with the
    lawyers,   and go own to some issue that concerns the children.  If she
    refuses the court granted visitation take her to court and sue her for
    court costs and legal fees.  Take the police with you to pick up the
    children on the court appointed days and times they make unbelievable
    witnesses and are very good akeeping the peace.  Additionally armed
    with a copy of the decree it eliminates un enforceable arguments.
    
    If your former wife is upset because you are getting married let it be
    her problem because it certainly is noe of her business.
    
    Do not encourage it ,but when the children want to come and live with
    you let them if they are old enoug to make that decision.
    
    DO NOT GET HER HUSBAND INTO YOUR DISPUTES.   LET THE LAWYERS WORK IT
    OUT FIRTST AND JUST ENFORCE IT, IT IS NOE OF HIS BUSINESS IF YOU KEEP
    IT FOCUSED ON THE CHILDREN...
    
    WISHING YOU LUCK
    
    
    LINCOLN 

    John,
    
    Don't put the children in the middle unless there is a *very* good
    chance that you will win if you put them on the stand.  Otherwise,
    they still have to live with her and she will make them pay.
    
    Proving emotional abuse will be very difficult.  You have a better
    chance of having her held in contempt for violating the current
    agreement than to try and change the agreement.  However, hauling
    her into court will serve notice that you won't put up with any
    b.s. even if you lose.
    
    She can't get to you emotionally unless you *let* her.  Blow her
    off ( I know--easier said than done).  If she starts screaming an
    yelling at you, just put the phone down and walk away and let her
    scream and yell.  Serve notice that you will listen to her if you
    can have a reasonable discussion, but you're not going to listen to
    her dump her hate and frustrations all over you.
    
    fred();

Re. All

Thank you.  You have given me something to go on.

Based on my lawyers advise I am going back to court to have a 
judge tell the NoOp to:

	o Allow my children to live with me if they are of age to 
	  decide on their own

	o Allow my children to stay longer than the summer visitation
	  calls for if they are of age to decide on their own

and have the judge:

	o Clear up disputes on financial medical responsibilities

	o Clear up disputes regarding visitation times and rules

Outside of these four, I won't be doing much unless it becomes obvious that
an outside third party needs to get involved.

Again, thanks for the advise.  All I am really after is giving the
children a chance to have desires met if they are reasonable.  Nothing
will be forced; just the option will be made available and all parties
will understand them.

			Thanks
			   John

I just spent the last few days writing a letter to mt lawyer back in Ohio.
I sent it yesterday.  It was 8 pages long plus 5 attachments (maybe I'm
too thorough, but that's ok).  The result of all this is that I feel greatly
relived.  Over the past few years, writing has been good theropy for me.

Re .1  I've reread my note in 6.7 and yes, I am still very happy and lead
a very full life.  Thanks for mentioning that.  It nice to reflect on how
I felt a year ago; I still feel that way.

>    If she starts screaming let her, then say take that up with the
>    lawyers,   and go own to some issue that concerns the children. 
Done!  I guess that's why I feel relieved; my lawyer can decide if it's
a nit or whatever.

    
>    If your former wife is upset because you are getting married let it be
>    her problem because it certainly is noe of her business.
Agreed!
    
>    Do not encourage it ,but when the children want to come and live with
>    you let them if they are old enoug to make that decision.
They have started.  I just hope Nathan (he's 13) can stand up to her tirade
if there is one from his mom.
    
>    DO NOT GET HER HUSBAND INTO YOUR DISPUTES.   LET THE LAWYERS WORK IT
>    OUT FIRTST AND JUST ENFORCE IT, IT IS NOE OF HIS BUSINESS IF YOU KEEP
>    IT FOCUSED ON THE CHILDREN...
I refuted something the NoOp said and he came out of the house to argue
on the street corner.  Since that incident I don't say anything...it's in
writing or not at all.
    
>    WISHING YOU LUCK
Thanks!

Re .3
>    Don't put the children in the middle unless there is a *very* good
>    chance that you will win if you put them on the stand.  Otherwise,
>    they still have to live with her and she will make them pay.
I'm very careful on that.  My lawyer is excellent (based on personal first
hand accounts I've seen him work on) and I'll follow his advise to the letter.
If he wants them to talk to the judge in chambers or on the stand it will 
only be because they are not allowed to express their wishes at home.  For
example, my son Nathan wants to live with me.  I've never asked him to
live with me or suggested it.  He came to me recently so I tested his 
convictions on the matter, discussed leaving his brothers and sisters, etc.
and I am sure he will not waver if he has to talk to a lawyer, referee or 
judge; he simply wants to get out.

>    Proving emotional abuse will be very difficult.  You have a better
>    chance of having her held in contempt for violating the current
>    agreement than to try and change the agreement.  However, hauling
>    her into court will serve notice that you won't put up with any
>    b.s. even if you lose.
I'm not going to.  It's a concern of mine.  I went into a lot of detail
in my letter to my lawyer, but I really don't expect there is enough
substance there to prove it. 

>    She can't get to you emotionally unless you *let* her.  Blow her
>    off ( I know--easier said than done).  If she starts screaming an
>    yelling at you, just put the phone down and walk away and let her
>    scream and yell.  Serve notice that you will listen to her if you
>    can have a reasonable discussion, but you're not going to listen to
>    her dump her hate and frustrations all over you.
Argggg!  I *let* her.  She has no phone (didn;t pay the bill I'm told).  I
did serve notice a while back and it worked until I dropped my gaurd 
because she was nice to me a couple of times.  Then she knows she can "get
me" then it starts.  

What I don't like is that she does this in front of the children so I 
figure bringing a pocket tape recorder, turning it on right in front of
her will do something about that.  It may inflame her short-term; it 
may shut her trap permanently.  Comments?

My goal is to be able to pick up the children and clear out without 
exposing the children to another tirade just because I am around and (my
opinion is) she is miserable because she married 4 days after the divorce
someone she met only a month or 2 prior [if court day comes, I'll be sure
to keep that last comment to myself!].  Her mistakes are her business and
my personal life is my business.

Court:	Item 1) Clarify and enforce what the decree says
	Item 2) Allow the older children to live with me if they desire

It's getting more simple!  

Thanks for listening and responding!  You people are the greatest and I
appreciate all the comments!  Thank You!


			   John

    Re .5 John.
    
>Argggg!  I *let* her.  She has no phone (didn;t pay the bill I'm told).  I
>did serve notice a while back and it worked until I dropped my gaurd 
>because she was nice to me a couple of times.  Then she knows she can "get
>me" then it starts.  
    
    Sounds familiar 8^(.  But it's funny how being armed with *knowing*
    what is going on can allow you to blow this kind of thing off.

>What I don't like is that she does this in front of the children so I 
>figure bringing a pocket tape recorder, turning it on right in front of
>her will do something about that.  It may inflame her short-term; it 
>may shut her trap permanently.  Comments?
    
    I did this to my telephone.  A little device you can get from Radio
    Shack.  Fedral law, last time I checked anyway, (I don't remember the
    exact reference, though. It's been a while) says that it is legal to
    tape phone conversations if at least *one* of the party know it's being
    taped.  Funny how the midnight phone tirades came to a screeching 
    halt.  Careful though.  If she is really unstable, this type of thing
    *could* trigger a *very* nasty reaction on her part.  Have *friendly*
    witnesses handy if you do this in person.
    
>My goal is to be able to pick up the children and clear out without 
>exposing the children to another tirade just because I am around and (my
    
    See if you could ask for or get a third party to transfer the kids.
    
>Court:	Item 1) Clarify and enforce what the decree says
>	Item 2) Allow the older children to live with me if they desire
>
>It's getting more simple!  

    Good for you.  Hang tough.
    
    fred();
    

    John, I like the mediator idea.  Is there any way she would go for it
    if it was suggested by someone else?  What worries me (an you too I
    know) is that she will take her hostilities out on the kids,
    particularly the four-year old (the most defenseless).  
    
    I wish I could offer more help but dealing with irrational behavior is
    not one of my best attributes.  We both believe in the same thing, God
    will guide you.
    
    Good luck
    
    Susan
    

Thanks Sue.  As always you and the others in this conference are 
very supportive.  Through all the muck and mire, one thing hasn't 
changed and that is God has His hand on the situation and talking
it through here is a part of that!

			   John

    RE: the tape recorder idea.  Get a sound activated mini recorder (you
    should be able to find one at most any place that sells elctronic
    equipment) they are often used by people as honds-off notebooks to
    record ideas etc.  put it in a shirt or coat pocket set to record, and
    see if you get anything useful.  If she is loud enough (they can be
    pretty sensitive), you should get some really interesting tapes.
    
    RE:  All the other stuff, sound like you are on the  right track.  Just
    be aware that children can change their minds very easily, quickly and
    without warning.  I spent about $500 getting a change of custody battle
    started when my eldest was threatening suicide because of her mom,
    before we could even make a move, my doughter did a 180 and refused to
    concede that there might be any problem at all.  One just never knows.
    
    

Re .9  One never knows...agreed.

I saw Erin (16 years) in the school musical last friday and Nathan (13 years)
played trumpet with 4 others.  The 9 hour drive (round trip) was worth it.
Erin had the lead female vocalist (3 years in a row!) part.  The musical was
actually an opera;  The Pirates of Penzance.  Erin was fantastic! (unbiased
opinion of course)!  Nathan was good too.  Enough bragging...

Nathan played during the first half (the second half was strictly piano).  He
came to sit down with me in the audience after intermission and was stopped
by his mom.  He told her wanted to sit with me and ordered to sit with her.

Needless to say, the NoOp is digging her own grave.  One never knows... if 
he comes under too much pressure from his mom when she finds out... well...
This is a small example of why he wants to leave and I hope he can stick 
it out.


			Later,
			   John

If I may, I'd like to continue writing to this note once in a while.

The court papers will be served to the NoOp sometime today or tomorrow.

I had visitation on Father's day and the 450 mile trip was worth it though it
is getting to be a bit much. After talking to the children and hearing some
noise (actually angry words) from the NoOp I know going to court is the right
thing to do for me.

When I told the 4 younger children that their oldest brother is going
to live with me, more incidents about emotional abuse from both their
mother and step father are coming out. I have never solicited any information.
Knowning what I know, court is needed. It's beyond me.

As stated in 124.0, I have no experience in court. As a previous
response suggested, I will go to court here in Charlotte before going to
court in Dayton, Ohio. At least I'll have some idea of what happens.

The more I think about it, the better I feel about going to get this thing
settled. I do not expect it to be the last time, and I am prepared to go
back again. Eventually I expect to take custody of all the children simply
because the NoOp is pushing them to me. It's sad. The NoOp doesn't realize
what she is doing to them.

Upon re-reading 124.0 and learning more from the children, I know I am 
proceding in the right direction. I may run into some rough weather but 
I am really not too worried about it because I am focusing on the children,
not the petty crap.

The biggest difference between note 124.0 and now is that the knot in
my stomach is gone.

The last thing I have to do is pull all my documentation together and
let the judge review the matter. The court date is set for July 17th.

Thanks for all the support. I'll write here once in a while. Comments 
and suggestions are welcomed.


			Thanks,
			   John

    Good luck John.  For you *and* your kids.
    fred();

There are some really bizzare turn of events happenning.

I filed a 5 part motion to straighten out all the garbage I've been
going through in June. Part of it was to honor Nathan's (13) request to live
with me. About 2 days after the NoOp was served the papers, Nathan changed
his mind. I suspect his mother pressured him, but I can't be sure.

I'm disappointed, but out of that something else is starting to happen.

First, Nathan remaining with his brothers and sisters is good. I prefer
to keep them together, but I am still not sure that he is leveling with
me. The court date is 01-Oct-91 so I have a lot of time to discuss it with him.

Next, I saw the children for visitation again last saturday. For the first
time ever *all* of them were clean and dressed nice. I have to assume that
this is a result of the motion I filed questioning the children's living 
conditions. 

Also, I wrote an 8 page letter to the court appointed social worker.
I was very careful to show my concerns without accusing my ex of being a
bad mother. My lawyer said I was polite, but the concerns and the reasons
for them are crystal clear. Maybe that's why they were clean when presented
to me? This is an improvement.

But even though the children have had a marked improvement (clean clothes is
just one thing that has gotten better for them), the NoOp still continues to
yell her fool brains out at me when I pick them up and return them.

A very, very strange thing happened last night. The NoOp calls me up and asks
if we can discuss *all* problems to the benefit of the children. I practically
fainted when she said this! (I asked her for this before and got nowhere. 
"Shove it" was the in essence the reply)

She said she talked to her lawyer
and wants to settle my grievances out of court since she does not have any
money. She said she was willing to discuss terms of medical expenses now
and when she starts working full time as a nurse. Finally she said she wants
the discussions to be cordial without name calling and she's sorry for the
way she has over-reacted in the past.

Gads! I don't know whether to believe it or not. After getting so much
grief from her, how can she be so nice?

We are supposed to talk on Wednesday and exchange lists of "wants". I've 
tried this before and didn't work. I don't trust her and will only withdraw 
my motions when her lawyer has sent something in writing.

Is this too hardline? Given her past jekel and hyde transformations I'd 
like it in writing, signed, sealed and court blessed before dropping anything.

Comments?


			Thanks,
			   John

PS. Ohio and West Virginia calculate child support using the same formula.
Does anyone know what this is? Do other states use it?

    John, after reading your note I just sat here for a few minutes. What
    an "about face"!  It sounds like someone has been talking to her (is
    she in counseling?) or that she is on medication (valium?).  
    
    My advice is just as you said, don't drop anything.  Wait and see if
    this behavior continues, particularly with the children.  I know you
    said her father was very level-headed, has he been a sudden influence? 
    I say "sudden" because I know he has tried in the past.  Maybe the
    reality of the situation, loosing her children one by one, put her back
    on track.  Whatever it is, be cautious but grateful that the children
    are getting a reprieve.  
    
    God Bless
    
    Susan
    

John,

Stick with your plan, do not drop anything until you have gotten something
signed, sealed and delivered. Even if your lawyer suggests it, do not agree to
dropping it until your happy with the end product.

My ex does the same J&H routine. The ex is nice when she wants something or
feels threatened by pending legal action and back to normal after she has
gotten/not gotten what she wants. By dropping the action in good faith takes the
preasure off your ex to really discuss the issues.

John

    
    Don't drop anything, period.  If you can work it out with the ex- in
    writing before court, all the better.  Then it can be written in as
    part of the official record.  She won't even need a lawyer to go in. 
    Or, if you can agree to what you want, just have her sign whatever
    document you come up with, and she won't even have to appear.  You do
    all the leg work.  Save the legal fees.
    
    Just my opinion (it has worked for me)
    
    McQ
    

Thanks for all the inputs. I'll be sure to get it in writing and approved
by my lawyer before dropping anything.

I'll reply if something significant happens.


			Thanks,
			   John

It's been two years . . . The only thing that came from the lawyers was an
increase in child support and huge fees. Since dismissing the lawyers, I've 
lived my own life and stopped obsessing on the past.

Letting go of the past . . . Today I'm much happier. Kathy (I forgot I called
her the NoOp until I reread these responses) and I and the children get along
much better now. *Much better*. She is stilled married so I don't talk
to her much, but we renegotiated child support (Erin is 18 and leaving the 
house) and agreed to
	Have no lawayers
	Use the WV child support formula
	Get a mediator if needed
	let it take up to a year (the lawyers take that long anyhow)
	and to stick to the above.

After that agreement we exchanged what each other felt was appropriate. Two 
weeks later I was at her parents house getting ready to pick up the children
(not unusual since I've known them for twenty years and still call them mom 
and dad). In walks Kathy wanting to talk. Over a cup of coffee we were done
fifteen minutes later. She gave me all I wanted and I gave her all she wanted.
No hassle. Rather friendly.

Frankly, I was prepared to leave the child support the same. The children's
living conditions have greatly improved and they have a dad (me!) who 
isn't distracted by the garbage of the past. The kids are somewhat 
stunned by the peacefulness, but heck, it's fine with me.

So the child support has gone down and I can see the kids when ever I want 
(though 225 miles limits the frequency). For the past year I've stayed out 
her life, and I've gotten on with mine. I've gone back to school to get my 
BA in English (should graduate in Spring of 96). A good friend of mine
is a scultor (he makes big stuff, two and three stories tall) and we are
working together on a couple of things (I write, he scultps). I'll resume
dating sometime in the future. Right now there is no turmoil to speak of.
I'm enjoying the serenity.

John

That's great !  Hope things continue to get better & better for you.
... And maybe someday my husband's ex will be willing to talk things 
out about the kids.

Leslie